"The New York State Assembly today passed legislation that bans lead ammo from being used on state lands and all lands in the New York City watershed. Talk about a big blow to frontstuffers! This is most of the Adirondack and Catskill parks! It hurts just talking about it!"
No mention on starting date here, I shared what I saw.
Lol. Been that way down here for years. Environmentalist have been crying about lead containmenating the water. But turn their heads not to see all the plants dumping crap into the Mississippi River. Just more politics.
When I was a kid we ran around the woods with our pellet guns carrying pellets in our cheek for quick deployment
Lead poisoning must take alot to get or more than 30 yrs to set in
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Quote from: sasquatch1 on April 28, 2023, 06:15:04 PM
When I was a kid we ran around the woods with our pellet guns carting pellets in our cheek for auxin deployment
Lead poisoning must take alot to get or more than 30 yrs to set it
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Facts right here.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on April 28, 2023, 06:01:57 PM
Lol. Been that way down here for years. Environmentalist have been crying about lead containmenating the water. But turn their heads not to see all the plants dumping crap into the Mississippi River. Just more politics.
Not sure what will happen if they force it on all land, am I just supposed to throw out all my lead shot? I don't much think so! Environmentalist are whack jobs for the most part from what I have seen.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on April 28, 2023, 06:31:22 PM
Quote from: sasquatch1 on April 28, 2023, 06:15:04 PM
When I was a kid we ran around the woods with our pellet guns carting pellets in our cheek for auxin deployment
Lead poisoning must take alot to get or more than 30 yrs to set it
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Facts right here.
I ate paint most of my youth and I turned out relatively abby normal.
Gov dumped DDT in ocean and buries UXOs in forests, but you must obey!
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Been that way in Ga for awhile. I don't shoot that many high dollar shells but use lead in general patterns and follow up with my turkey shells in the end. POI is the same and saves some money
What's crazy is the higher that be's come up with this crap. I personally think they sit up in DC and come up with crap because they are board and pretending to the populace that they serve a purpose. More of the "Do as I say , not as I do " mentality.
Quote from: ManfromGreenSwamp on April 28, 2023, 07:19:41 PM
Gov dumped DDT in ocean and buries UXOs in forests, but you must obey!
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Of course you must. They really need to be removed from office.
Quote from: worth612000 on April 28, 2023, 07:25:59 PM
Been that way in Ga for awhile. I don't shoot that many high dollar shells but use lead in general patterns and follow up with my turkey shells in the end. POI is the same and saves some money
I don't think they should have the right to do it myself. I think I have 2 boxes of Heavi-Shot but everything else other than some steel duck shot is lead.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on April 28, 2023, 07:38:18 PM
What's crazy is the higher that be's come up with this crap. I personally think they sit up in DC and come up with crap because they are board and pretending to the populace that they serve a purpose. More of the "Do as I say , not as I do " mentality.
Could not agree more. I am a firm believer in term limits, that is why so many of the so called Republicans turned on Trump in the end, he made the mistake of saying he wanted term limits before he was reelected.
See there, even those Yankees in NY know that TSS is a superior load and they don't want that crappy lead making it's way onto public property :TooFunny:
Just kidding! But seriously, it is one of those dumb laws for some liberal to jump on their soap box and say "Look at me, I CARE ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT!!!"
Guess all the tss haters are going to have to quit turkey hunting and thus reduce the pressure so there's room for the tss loving nonresidents.
I heard they are going to ban mouth calls Next....
Non-toxic shot began in waterfowl due to high concentrations of hunting in some areas creating a situation where birds were eating lead and dying of lead poisoning in large numbers...
Honestly, there was good reason to stop the use of lead "in some areas."
But lead does not leach into soil or water, and has to be ingested...
Anti-hunters have successfully created marketing advocating against the use of lead as a poison to create new restrictions which have made it far more difficult and expensive to hunters... Claims that animals (such as condors) will eat lead contaminated gut piles of deer and die from lead poisoning...
Been completely non-tox in California for a while... Not allowed to purchase ammo online, and need a background check to purchase ammo here.
I have gotten used to hunting waterfowl with steel, but despise doing so for dove, quail, pheasants, etc... Premium shot is vastly too expensive to use on high volume shooting such as dove or quail... Copper bullets are quite expensive (especially for small game and high volume).
Premium shot for turkeys is a no-brainer though... Even at $10 per shot, it is well worth it to shoot something vastly more effective than steel, and even lead for 2-4 shells fired per season.
I have also found it more difficult to get my kids into the hunting game with non-toxic. More difficult to hit and kill dove/quail, with ammunition that does not work as well, is more expensive, and recoils considerably more than cheap lead target loads.
Quote from: worth612000 on April 28, 2023, 07:25:59 PM
Been that way in Ga for awhile. I don't shoot that many high dollar shells but use lead in general patterns and follow up with my turkey shells in the end. POI is the same and saves some money
I haven't found any regs on lead for turkey in Ga. Says #2 or smaller 10ga or smaller thats it.
Guess all the tss haters are going to have to quit turkey hunting and thus reduce the pressure so there's room for the tss loving nonresidents.
This is golden!!! :z-winnersmiley:
Quote from: Marc on April 29, 2023, 10:53:11 AM
Non-toxic shot began in waterfowl due to high concentrations of hunting in some areas creating a situation where birds were eating lead and dying of lead poisoning in large numbers...
Honestly, there was good reason to stop the use of lead "in some areas."
But lead does not leach into soil or water, and has to be ingested...
Anti-hunters have successfully created marketing advocating against the use of lead as a poison to create new restrictions which have made it far more difficult and expensive to hunters... Claims that animals (such as condors) will eat lead contaminated gut piles of deer and die from lead poisoning...
Been completely non-tox in California for a while... Not allowed to purchase ammo online, and need a background check to purchase ammo here.
I have gotten used to hunting waterfowl with steel, but despise doing so for dove, quail, pheasants, etc... Premium shot is vastly too expensive to use on high volume shooting such as dove or quail... Copper bullets are quite expensive (especially for small game and high volume).
Premium shot for turkeys is a no-brainer though... Even at $10 per shot, it is well worth it to shoot something vastly more effective than steel, and even lead for 2-4 shells fired per season.
I have also found it more difficult to get my kids into the hunting game with non-toxic. More difficult to hit and kill dove/quail, with ammunition that does not work as well, is more expensive, and recoils considerably more than cheap lead target loads.
One interesting theory behind the elevated lead levels in ducks back then was the piping that was generally used back then was metal. Most irrigation pipe has been changed now. I have always been curious of the validity of the original studies as they do not mention testing the fields/timber that was flooded or where the water came from.
Quote from: Gooserbat on April 29, 2023, 09:47:19 AM
Guess all the tss haters are going to have to quit turkey hunting and thus reduce the pressure so there's room for the tss loving nonresidents.
is that suppose to be funny? It`s not. That said I used none lead during big game season last fall and took 3 nice deer. Using tss in my 20 this year and lead in my 12. I have tried to be pro active realizing these moronic laws are on their way. Good day.
Without reading most of these comments I'll spin this story. In the 1990s long before I retired and moved to western Kentucky it was heavily rumored that lead was to banned on any federally controlled land. At that time I was using only #5 HV lead. I switched to either bismuth or hevi and haven't looked back. Plenty of no tox loadings available for muzzleloaders. Not a concern. Changing times.
Quote from: Spurs on April 29, 2023, 01:41:35 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 29, 2023, 10:53:11 AM
Non-toxic shot began in waterfowl due to high concentrations of hunting in some areas creating a situation where birds were eating lead and dying of lead poisoning in large numbers...
Honestly, there was good reason to stop the use of lead "in some areas."
But lead does not leach into soil or water, and has to be ingested...
Anti-hunters have successfully created marketing advocating against the use of lead as a poison to create new restrictions which have made it far more difficult and expensive to hunters... Claims that animals (such as condors) will eat lead contaminated gut piles of deer and die from lead poisoning...
Been completely non-tox in California for a while... Not allowed to purchase ammo online, and need a background check to purchase ammo here.
I have gotten used to hunting waterfowl with steel, but despise doing so for dove, quail, pheasants, etc... Premium shot is vastly too expensive to use on high volume shooting such as dove or quail... Copper bullets are quite expensive (especially for small game and high volume).
Premium shot for turkeys is a no-brainer though... Even at $10 per shot, it is well worth it to shoot something vastly more effective than steel, and even lead for 2-4 shells fired per season.
I have also found it more difficult to get my kids into the hunting game with non-toxic. More difficult to hit and kill dove/quail, with ammunition that does not work as well, is more expensive, and recoils considerably more than cheap lead target loads.
One interesting theory behind the elevated lead levels in ducks back then was the piping that was generally used back then was metal. Most irrigation pipe has been changed now. I have always been curious of the validity of the original studies as they do not mention testing the fields/timber that was flooded or where the water came from.
I highly doubt lead shot was actually making a measurable distance.
One can always find ways to convince himself of a theory he wants to believe.
With the lifespan of the average duck on top of that? I just doubt it but I don't know.
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The same water shed that they are protecting gets delivered through 100's of miles of lead piping in the city.
These people are morons they have no clue. Its all bullshit.
Quote from: mikejd on April 29, 2023, 04:37:59 PM
The same water shed that they are protecting gets delivered through 100's of miles of lead piping in the city.
These people are morons they have no clue. Its all bullshit.
Plus its still ok to use on private land.
Quote from: sasquatch1 on April 29, 2023, 04:03:30 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 29, 2023, 01:41:35 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 29, 2023, 10:53:11 AM
Non-toxic shot began in waterfowl due to high concentrations of hunting in some areas creating a situation where birds were eating lead and dying of lead poisoning in large numbers...
Honestly, there was good reason to stop the use of lead "in some areas."
But lead does not leach into soil or water, and has to be ingested...
Anti-hunters have successfully created marketing advocating against the use of lead as a poison to create new restrictions which have made it far more difficult and expensive to hunters... Claims that animals (such as condors) will eat lead contaminated gut piles of deer and die from lead poisoning...
Been completely non-tox in California for a while... Not allowed to purchase ammo online, and need a background check to purchase ammo here.
I have gotten used to hunting waterfowl with steel, but despise doing so for dove, quail, pheasants, etc... Premium shot is vastly too expensive to use on high volume shooting such as dove or quail... Copper bullets are quite expensive (especially for small game and high volume).
Premium shot for turkeys is a no-brainer though... Even at $10 per shot, it is well worth it to shoot something vastly more effective than steel, and even lead for 2-4 shells fired per season.
I have also found it more difficult to get my kids into the hunting game with non-toxic. More difficult to hit and kill dove/quail, with ammunition that does not work as well, is more expensive, and recoils considerably more than cheap lead target loads.
One interesting theory behind the elevated lead levels in ducks back then was the piping that was generally used back then was metal. Most irrigation pipe has been changed now. I have always been curious of the validity of the original studies as they do not mention testing the fields/timber that was flooded or where the water came from.
I highly doubt lead shot was actually making a measurable distance.
One can always find ways to convince himself of a theory he wants to believe.
With the lifespan of the average duck on top of that? I just doubt it but I don't know.
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I tend to agree with your assessment too. There are so many things that would have to happen for a duck to ingest the amount of lead it would take. Plus, they digest and remove waste much faster than anyone really cares to think about.
I feel like pressures from the non hunting crowd has a vastly larger role in hunting regulations Than anyone thinks. Seems like it'd be much easier to slowly make hunting so hard and expensive that our crowd will slowly erode into nothing.
Quote from: Spurs on April 29, 2023, 06:36:58 PM
Quote from: sasquatch1 on April 29, 2023, 04:03:30 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 29, 2023, 01:41:35 PM
Quote from: Marc on April 29, 2023, 10:53:11 AM
Non-toxic shot began in waterfowl due to high concentrations of hunting in some areas creating a situation where birds were eating lead and dying of lead poisoning in large numbers...
Honestly, there was good reason to stop the use of lead "in some areas."
But lead does not leach into soil or water, and has to be ingested...
Anti-hunters have successfully created marketing advocating against the use of lead as a poison to create new restrictions which have made it far more difficult and expensive to hunters... Claims that animals (such as condors) will eat lead contaminated gut piles of deer and die from lead poisoning...
Been completely non-tox in California for a while... Not allowed to purchase ammo online, and need a background check to purchase ammo here.
I have gotten used to hunting waterfowl with steel, but despise doing so for dove, quail, pheasants, etc... Premium shot is vastly too expensive to use on high volume shooting such as dove or quail... Copper bullets are quite expensive (especially for small game and high volume).
Premium shot for turkeys is a no-brainer though... Even at $10 per shot, it is well worth it to shoot something vastly more effective than steel, and even lead for 2-4 shells fired per season.
I have also found it more difficult to get my kids into the hunting game with non-toxic. More difficult to hit and kill dove/quail, with ammunition that does not work as well, is more expensive, and recoils considerably more than cheap lead target loads.
One interesting theory behind the elevated lead levels in ducks back then was the piping that was generally used back then was metal. Most irrigation pipe has been changed now. I have always been curious of the validity of the original studies as they do not mention testing the fields/timber that was flooded or where the water came from.
I highly doubt lead shot was actually making a measurable distance.
One can always find ways to convince himself of a theory he wants to believe.
With the lifespan of the average duck on top of that? I just doubt it but I don't know.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I tend to agree with your assessment too. There are so many things that would have to happen for a duck to ingest the amount of lead it would take. Plus, they digest and remove waste much faster than anyone really cares to think about.
I feel like pressures from the non hunting crowd has a vastly larger role in hunting regulations Than anyone thinks. Seems like it'd be much easier to slowly make hunting so hard and expensive that our crowd will slowly erode into nothing.
Just like leasing, soon it will be like it was in England where only the kind and the rich folk could hunt.
Quote from: sasquatch1 on April 29, 2023, 04:03:30 PM
I highly doubt lead shot was actually making a measurable distance.
One can always find ways to convince himself of a theory he wants to believe.
With the lifespan of the average duck on top of that? I just doubt it but I don't know.
Rember that duck hunting often takes place on marshes or refuges, with thousands of rounds being fired over small areas... If the soil is shallow enough, ducks will ingest lethal amounts of lead... And if not lethal, enough to weaken them for migration or breeding.
I took a biologies course in college with a professor who was not pro-hunting, but felt that hunting was a neccessary evil, due to the financial support of hunters... He strongly felt that there were many areas in which the ground was soft enough that lead would sink into the ground too quickly to be problematic... But... There were areas where lead ingestion was a valid concern.
As far as how long ducks live?
Per banded birds: I shot one that was about 8 years old, my father shot a duck that was 9... Buddy just killed a snow goose that was 22 years old this season.
But there is a huge difference between concentrated shooting over smaller acrerage of land, verses hunting vast expanses with few shots being fired... The prospect of a quail in California, finding, much less eating enough lead to cause lead poisoning due to hunting is preposterous.
Quote from: Marc on April 29, 2023, 07:55:45 PM
Quote from: sasquatch1 on April 29, 2023, 04:03:30 PM
I highly doubt lead shot was actually making a measurable distance.
One can always find ways to convince himself of a theory he wants to believe.
With the lifespan of the average duck on top of that? I just doubt it but I don't know.
Rember that duck hunting often takes place on marshes or refuges, with thousands of rounds being fired over small areas... If the soil is shallow enough, ducks will ingest lethal amounts of lead... And if not lethal, enough to weaken them for migration or breeding.
I took a biologies course in college with a professor who was not pro-hunting, but felt that hunting was a neccessary evil, due to the financial support of hunters... He strongly felt that there were many areas in which the ground was soft enough that lead would sink into the ground too quickly to be problematic... But... There were areas where lead ingestion was a valid concern.
As far as how long ducks live?
Per banded birds: I shot one that was about 8 years old, my father shot a duck that was 9... Buddy just killed a snow goose that was 22 years old this season.
But there is a huge difference between concentrated shooting over smaller acrerage of land, verses hunting vast expanses with few shots being fired... The prospect of a quail in California, finding, much less eating enough lead to cause lead poisoning due to hunting is preposterous.
Long time duck hunter since a child
I understand all that and live on the edge of the gulf. Still, the areas are more open and spread out than it seems, also outside of field hunting it's usually all tidal which I'd think covers up a huge % of the shot but as I said IDK
Also on the age, sure some get old. But I'm talking average. I'd bet avg life span is 3-4 yrs old for ducks.
Now, I really don't care about using non toxic shot. It's when the rule cascades into rifle shot, I mean cmon. Rifle bullets aren't causing measurable damage to wildlife. There's way more things harming them than that
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NY sucks!!
Quote from: Old Timer on April 29, 2023, 01:57:09 PM
Quote from: Gooserbat on April 29, 2023, 09:47:19 AM
Guess all the tss haters are going to have to quit turkey hunting and thus reduce the pressure so there's room for the tss loving nonresidents.
is that suppose to be funny? It`s not. That said I used none lead during big game season last fall and took 3 nice deer. Using tss in my 20 this year and lead in my 12. I have tried to be pro active realizing these moronic laws are on their way. Good day.
Yes and no. Just wanting to draw attention to the ridiculousness of certain attitudes.
Quote from: DROCK on May 03, 2023, 09:12:58 PM
NY sucks!!
New York is wonderful, it is the politicians in NY that suck and New York City which keeps them there. The rest of the state is one of the most beautiful you will ever see.
How can this be enforced if there is no substitute to buy or find in a large Quantity.
Even DEC will be hesitant to write up a Fine.
Quote from: quavers59 on May 04, 2023, 02:45:12 AM
How can this be enforced if there is no substitute to buy or find in a large Quantity.
Even DEC will be hesitant to write up a Fine.
Not in California... And likely not in New York. And likely not in any state "progressive" enough to put such regulation into place.
While I do believe that in some cases of waterfowl that the use of non-toxic shot is likely necessary or beneficial... The vast majority of hunting this is likely not the case.
In other words, the shift to non-toxic is likely more of a political anti-hunting initiative. Shooting a turkey in the hills hills with a shotgun, or a deer with a bullet, will likely not have any deleterious effects, and virutally has no benefit towards conservation....
The goal is to make hunting less accessible and more expensive. If you cannot find the appropriate ammunition to legally hunt game, that is YOUR problem, even if it is completely unavailable or prohibitively expensive.
People are having their hunting equipment (including dogs, guns, and vehicles) confinscated when being caught shooting lead at game (especially from the federal side shooting ducks).
There is also a paradigm shift with the wardens. Even in California, 10 years ago the majority of wardens enjoyed hunting and/or fishing themselves... Currently, there are more wardens that are becoming wardens who are opposed to hunting, and have a strong desire to make it as difficult as possible and write up a ticket given any opportunity.
That being said, most of the wardens I run into have been reasonable, and still on the side of the outdoorsman, but it is shifting.
Sorry to hear what you guys living in N.Y. are having to deal with. Beautiful state, but like a couple other
states, I would never set foot in it. It is like they are not even part of the U.S.A., but run by jackboot authoritarian thugs with a portrait of Stalin hanging in the state house rotunda. Yikes!
Quote from: Gooserbat on April 29, 2023, 09:47:19 AM
Guess all the tss haters are going to have to quit turkey hunting and thus reduce the pressure so there's room for the tss loving nonresidents.
Lol! Haven't waded out into TSS waters as yet but am certainly thinking about it in a small shot (#9 and up) and a sub gauge platform (20g and smaller). However, I don't want to be herded that way by politicians..... As for less people in the woods? I'm willing to go to chunking rocks if it'll get the woods back to where it was 8-10yrs ago.....
Legislation that restricts any form of ammunition is music to the ears of the anti hunters and anti ,2A crowd be cautious of the "improvements " be suspicious of politicians I trust them about as much as most people trust single ply toilet paper...full of s---, and can't be trusted to do Thier job moves like this , they look as 2 inches closer to the end zone... of banning hunting all together..if you think otherwise , your sadly mistaken
I'm sure all the Walmarts have plenty of lead sinkers available to go fishing ? If so it sounds like a double standard?
For Waterfowl hunters this is old news as the move to steel ...for turkey hunters be aware that the source of much of the Tungsten is actually the Peoples Republic of China , they dominate the market on tungsten and also rare earth minerals ... tungsten has multiple military applications in munitions so there is a possibility even so remote..it could be restricted ... possibility and if the supply chain is ever disrupted for any reason ....just like how reloading components during the last few years ...the consumers have a serious problem ...
Make sure .and I've been saying this for years and years ..you stock up on whatever you shoot with a supply to last you many years ,as there is no telling what the future may hold