have any of you guys been able to get good patterns from the 20m inch barrel. I am considering getting a new mossberg turkey thumper and wondered if the patterns would be as good as the 24 inch barrel that I currently have. I simply have no experience shooting short shotgun barrels and wonder how much the extra 4 inches helps the pattern with today's choke's and shell's. Any help and testimonials would be greatly appreciated.
Patterns could be close but I still think that the longer barrel will cause the shot to hit harder.
Quote from: coyotetrpr on June 18, 2011, 02:16:18 PM
have any of you guys been able to get good patterns from the 20m inch barrel. I am considering getting a new mossberg turkey thumper and wondered if the patterns would be as good as the 24 inch barrel that I currently have. I simply have no experience shooting short shotgun barrels and wonder how much the extra 4 inches helps the pattern with today's choke's and shell's. Any help and testimonials would be greatly appreciated.
For many years the most common e-mail that I received was about patterns with the shorter barreled 835s. Typically, they would say something like,
"This is a very handy gun and I really like it but I just can't get the kinds of patterns that I see or hear about others getting with theirs."That was pretty common, regardless of the choke or shotshell used. The only common factor was barrel length. I'd always recommend that the barrel be "deep cleaned" and that helped but it was still rare (not impossible but rare) for a shooter to get the higher numbers that were pretty easily obtained with the longer barreled guns.
Are there some short barreled 835s that get great patterns? Apparently there are but it's just harder to get those great patterns with the shorter barrels. I think it's a bit of a trade-off between the shorter "handier" barrel and more dense patterns, for the most part.
Thanks,
Clark
I've got 2 29" bbl 835s and both shoot great. One bbl is. .775 bore and the other is a. 682..qc at mossberg could be tightened a little I think. I have shot a lot of different loads and chokes out of both. My best patterns are 368 in a 10" @ 40 with h51013 a nitros 4x5x7 out of a Sumtoy. 698 and 308 in. 10" @ 40 with hevi 13 7s and a Sumtoy 675. I think the hevi 13 pattern could go higher with a little more tweaking, but that's plenty. The 20" bbl work good for me..one is a th turkey edition and the other is a turkey thug edition. If you need any help setting one up, feel free to give me a shout. I will help all I can. Im in the process of working up some tss for them now. They will pattern very well, don't worry bout that.
Btw..do a search of my hevi 13 test..3 different guns..same choke and same loads...the 20" bbl outshot the 28"..nit by much..but still more.
IMHO...they are so close in pattern capability, the 20" Is the way to go, i have owned both and the 20" is a dream to carry. You will get alot of opinions on this, but keeping it simple the 2 major advantages to a longer barrell is 1)velocity-this applies to all shotguns and rifles as well. 2) a longer barrel allows the "shot column more time to settle", The 835 is heavily overbored and this basically gives the shot column more room to get settled before leaving barrel, therefore relieving most, if not all the need for a longer time in the barrel. The reason for all the different answers you will get is because the longer barrel will outperform the shorter most of the time in most other shotguns. The 835/935-.775 backbore is a whole seperate animal. I average about 220-225 with H13, 3.5", 2.25oz., #6, with a few shots in the 240's(probably some extra small pellets in those shells)
Good Luck,
Clint
I prefer the longer barrel. The shortest barrel that I would persoanlly want would be 24". I think 26" barrels are the best of both worlds.
I just finished testing some hevi-shot mag blends and #7's out of a 21" and 26"brl Rem 11-87.The 26" brl outshot the shorter 21" brl by a 5 bb avg. In a 10"circle @ 40yds.Obviously not enough difference in this gun to warrant using the longer brl.
Kdog
I have a 20'' barreled thumb hole moss. 835, and with 3.5 in. hevi 13 7 shot and a indian creek tube i get over 320 hits in a 10 in. circle at 40 yards
Quote from: jerf on June 18, 2011, 07:10:31 PM
I have a 20'' barreled thumb hole moss. 835, and with 3.5 in. hevi 13 7 shot and a indian creek tube i get over 320 hits in a 10 in. circle at 40 yards
Nice!!!
I have a 20" thumbhole as well and shoot an IC .710 using 2 oz of TSS #8 handloads and my last 2 shots at 40 yds at 30 degrees were 296 and 284. I plan to try a PG .670 and 2 1/4 oz #6 this summer some time, but I don't think I have to worry about needing a longer barrel. ;-)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
My indian creek is .675
I am shooting the 20" tube and got 193 and 207 at 40 with the 3.5 MB and a .670 PG. Not looking to break records, just looking for a reliable hunting gun. I think I found it! I covered over 50 miles this spring and it was a dream to carry.
Can you tell me what PG is? Thanks!
Velocity difference between a 20 and a 28 inch barrel is only 50-70 fps.
The difference would be even less between a 20 and a 24.
As far a patterning goes, I have heard enough people say there is a difference to be open to some documented, quantifiable data showing how much of a difference and/or an explanation of why. Neither has been forthcoming.
One reason that I am reasonably sure does NOT explain any difference is that "the shot has more time to settle" or any variation thereof. At 1100 fps, the shot takes .6 milliseconds (that's 6 ten thousands of a second) to travel the extra 8". I don't see how the shot is going to "settle" itself significantly in that amount of time, especially while it's still accelerating down the barrel.
Aside from the slight differences in fps and overall patterns between a 20" vs 24", there is a very significant factor which hasn't been addressed. The potential hearing loss from short barrel shotguns is much greater than w/ longer barreled shotguns. I don't know any turkey hunters who wear hearing protection while hunting, although a few do wear sound amplification devices which usually have a 80 decibel sound shut-off or suppressor. Years ago I had a Mag 10 Roadblocker w/ a 20" vent ribbed barrel w/Briley tubes, and the muzzle blast and resultant db's experienced during hunting situations would numb my left ear w/ hearing loss for hours and has contributed to long term hearing loss. Several studies I've read indicate that the decibel level at the ear decreases significantly w/ the barrel length and resultant increase in distance away from the ear due to the cone shaped pressure/sound wave generated when a firearm is discharged. I personally prefer a turkey gun w/ a minimum 26" barrel which is more forgiving to slight shaking and movement than a short barrel and have no trouble maneuvering through the woods. For several years BT (before tubes) I hunted w/ a 3" Browning Auto 5 w/ a 32" full barrel and a Stevens 10 gauge w/ a 36" full barrel, so for me 26" is short.
I use a Rem 870 with a 21" barrel. I have had no problems getting good patterns and it's been knocking heads since 1996.
Quote from: decoykrvr on July 08, 2011, 01:26:16 PM
Aside from the slight differences in fps and overall patterns between a 20" vs 24", there is a very significant factor which hasn't been addressed. The potential hearing loss from short barrel shotguns is much greater than w/ longer barreled shotguns. I don't know any turkey hunters who wear hearing protection while hunting, although a few do wear sound amplification devices which usually have a 80 decibel sound shut-off or suppressor. Years ago I had a Mag 10 Roadblocker w/ a 20" vent ribbed barrel w/Briley tubes, and the muzzle blast and resultant db's experienced during hunting situations would numb my left ear w/ hearing loss for hours and has contributed to long term hearing loss. Several studies I've read indicate that the decibel level at the ear decreases significantly w/ the barrel length and resultant increase in distance away from the ear due to the cone shaped pressure/sound wave generated when a firearm is discharged. I personally prefer a turkey gun w/ a minimum 26" barrel which is more forgiving to slight shaking and movement than a short barrel and have no trouble maneuvering through the woods. For several years BT (before tubes) I hunted w/ a 3" Browning Auto 5 w/ a 32" full barrel and a Stevens 10 gauge w/ a 36" full barrel, so for me 26" is short.
Wear hearing protection and the "problem" is moot. Try a set of Peltor 6s.
http://www.amazon.com/Peltor-97044-Tactical-Hearing-Protector/dp/B00009363P
How exactly is a 26" barrel "more forgiving to slight shaking and movement" than a short barrel?
Quote from: natman on July 09, 2011, 06:31:36 AM
[
Wear hearing protection and the "problem" is moot. Try a set of Peltor 6s.
[/quote]
Unfortunately, even with the best hearing protection available, the reduced noise levels with pistol, rifle, and shotgun blasts will often be at high enough decibel levels to cause damage in some folk's ears. Protection helps, but does not entirely eliminate the risk. It's something we have to live with if we shoot guns regularly.
Quote from: gobblergls on July 09, 2011, 07:07:22 AM
Quote from: natman on July 09, 2011, 06:31:36 AM
Wear hearing protection and the "problem" is moot. Try a set of Peltor 6s.
Unfortunately, even with the best hearing protection available, the reduced noise levels with pistol, rifle, and shotgun blasts will often be at high enough decibel levels to cause damage in some folk's ears. Protection helps, but does not entirely eliminate the risk. It's something we have to live with if we shoot guns regularly.
I'm a big fan of hearing protection, I don't ever shoot without it, but I'm not going to go to a 28" barrel instead of a 20" because of less noise when I'm wearing muffs, especially since I shoot 1 shot a day while turkey hunting. I shoot a 20" barrel, I wear a set of Peltor 6s and they turn a shotgun's
BOOM into a faint, faraway
boom.
The shorter the barrel the more movement at the receiver is amplified (the arc of the motion) at the muzzle with any firearm: rifle, shotgun, or pistol/revolver. Its true on stationary game as well as flying or running animals. In a lifetime of turkey hunting, I've never encountered a single hunter wearing Peltor style hearing protectors and the only time I've ever seen them used was by "Blind Sitters" on TV. If you can tolerate the heat, discomfort, and severe reduction in your ability to pinpoint and locate sounds, more power to you to protect your hearing, but the majority of hunters won't wear a "muff" style protector. As an audiologist will tell you, most hearing loss is repeated exposure to high db's over time, but one of the most deleterious insults which can cause rapid hearing loss is high db's coupled with the shock wave generated by a firearm. It's pretty simple, the further the muzzle blast is from the ear the less potential for hearing loss even with the few shells shot during a given turkey season.
Quote from: decoykrvr on July 10, 2011, 02:18:04 PM
. As an audiologist will tell you, most hearing loss is repeated exposure to high db's over time, but one of the most deleterious insults which can cause rapid hearing loss is high db's coupled with the shock wave generated by a firearm. It's pretty simple, the further the muzzle blast is from the ear the less potential for hearing loss even with the few shells shot during a given turkey season.
The best muffs give about 25-32 decibel reduction. A shotgun blast is 140-155 dB. That leaves 108 dB on the table at best. Repeated exposure to above 80 dB is all it takes for loss. The best protection my ears had was giving up dove hunting for about 25 years. All my buddies who stayed in the dove game have monaural hearing at best and most of them wore protection, ear plugs. You can tell an avid shotgunner over the age of 50--he's the guy who say's "huh?" and turns his gun shoulder ear towards you when you talk--the muzzle ear is shot out. ;) This kind of hearing loss is a turkey's best friend.
Quote from: decoykrvr on July 10, 2011, 02:18:04 PM
The shorter the barrel the more movement at the receiver is amplified (the arc of the motion) at the muzzle with any firearm: rifle, shotgun, or pistol/revolver. Its true on stationary game as well as flying or running animals. ..... As an audiologist will tell you, most hearing loss is repeated exposure to high db's over time, but one of the most deleterious insults which can cause rapid hearing loss is high db's coupled with the shock wave generated by a firearm. It's pretty simple, the further the muzzle blast is from the ear the less potential for hearing loss even with the few shells shot during a given turkey season.
These arguments display a fine grasp of theoretical detail but a poor sense of practical perspective. Both arguments are technically true, but neither is
important.
Yes, a shorter barrel does provide a shorter sighting plane, which I guess is what your "amplified movement" is about. But to put things in the proper perspective, we're talking about shooting turkeys
with a shotgun, not match shooting with an iron sighted 22. If you miss a turkey with a 20" shotgun, you'd miss it with a 30" shotgun.
Yes, I understand that a 20" barreled shotgun is somewhat louder than a 28" barreled shotgun. But if you are concerned about hearing damage - and you should be - then SOLVE the problem by wearing hearing protection, don't kid yourself that you're not causing damage with a 28" barrel and no protection.
Quote from: decoykrvr on July 10, 2011, 02:18:04 PMIn a lifetime of turkey hunting, I've never encountered a single hunter wearing Peltor style hearing protectors and the only time I've ever seen them used was by "Blind Sitters" on TV. If you can tolerate the heat, discomfort, and severe reduction in your ability to pinpoint and locate sounds, more power to you to protect your hearing, but the majority of hunters won't wear a "muff" style protector.
Spoken like someone who has never used them. The only one of your arguments that has any merit is the heat; when it's above 80F they do get a bit warm and I use active plugs instead. The Peltors are not uncomfortable and when properly adjusted there is no problem locating sounds, at least based on my 15 years and hundreds of hours using them.
From the University of Pennsylvania:
http://www.ehrs.upenn.edu/programs/occupat/hcp/noise_control.html
6 The maximum of sound attenuation one gets when wearing hearing protection devices is limited by human body and bone conduction mechanisms. Even though a particular device may provide outstanding values of noise attenuation the actual noise reductions may be less because of the noise surrounding the head and body bypasses the hearing protector and is transmitted through tissue and bone pathways to the inner ear.
Note: The term "double hearing protection" is misleading. The attenuation provided from any combination earplug and earmuff is not equal to the sum of their individual attenuation values.
I knew a State Crime Lab Ballistics expert who double protected with plugs and muffs. After 20 years of test firing weapons into bullet traps he lost his hearing. Muffs, plugs reduce, but don't solve the problem.
Quote from: gobblergls on July 11, 2011, 08:22:02 PM
From the University of Pennsylvania:
http://www.ehrs.upenn.edu/programs/occupat/hcp/noise_control.html
6 The maximum of sound attenuation one gets when wearing hearing protection devices is limited by human body and bone conduction mechanisms. Even though a particular device may provide outstanding values of noise attenuation the actual noise reductions may be less because of the noise surrounding the head and body bypasses the hearing protector and is transmitted through tissue and bone pathways to the inner ear.
Note: The term "double hearing protection" is misleading. The attenuation provided from any combination earplug and earmuff is not equal to the sum of their individual attenuation values.
I knew a State Crime Lab Ballistics expert who double protected with plugs and muffs. After 20 years of test firing weapons into bullet traps he lost his hearing. Muffs, plugs reduce, but don't solve the problem.
I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make. Surely you're not saying that there's no point in wearing hearing protection?
Quote from: natman on July 12, 2011, 04:39:03 AM
I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make. Surely you're not saying that there's no point in wearing hearing protection?
Of course not. It's just we have to make the choice of gunsports or unimpaired hearing. You can't have both if you do a lot of shooting. It's like seatbelts. They reduce the risk, but don't eliminate potential injury or death from car accidents. There is not a product on the market that eliminates potential hearing loss from shotgun blasts. Just do the simple math of shotgun blast dBs compared with advertised noise reduction dBs. What is left after reduction is still above the limit of predicted damaging dB levels. I wear protection dove hunting and at the pattern board. I wouldnt' be caught dead (maybe deaf) in a turkey woods wearing hearing protection. I've switched over to a 20 gauge for reasons other than for hearing protection. That will help some, but won't eliminate hearing damage. It's a choice we have to make. And then, some folks ears can handle it better than others.