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Some posts recently (some about state limitations on shot size and others about the price of shells and stores only having #7 TSS) got me wondering at what point shot size negates the advantage and price of TSS. Yes, the higher density increases efficacy at all size but I think we'd all agree the advantage is a numbers game. So I got to thinking about numbers per ounce and here's what I've got. We'll start with #7s because that was in a recent post and because I can't imagine anyone buying or loading any TSS bigger than that for turkeys:

So for #7s, one ounce of copper plated lead like LongBeards you've got 278 pellets, with the old Hevi13 you had 256, and with TSS you've got 185. Most wouldn't push a lead load to #7s for efficacy reasons but as you can see the numbers game for TSS ain't good at that size. I'd personally rather shoot a load of lead #6s at 209 per ounce or even #5s at 161 per ounce than pay what you'd pay for five shells of TSS #7.

With #8s TSS gets to 254 per ounce. Again, that to me isn't a significant enough increase in pellet count to warrant the cost. I'd probably just shoot lead #6s at 209 per ounce and I'd much rather shoot the old Hevi13 #7s at about half the price of current TSS and at 256 per ounce. God I wish they still made Hevi13!

This brings me to this point, I think you have to get to #8.5s or smaller for the numbers game of TSS to warrant the cost. We won't get into the efficacy at distance because that's really another matter. At 40yds and under copper plated lead #6s, Hevi13 #7s, and any TSS is killing birds stone dead. All this to say, I don't even know why they're selling TSS #7s but I sure as the world wouldn't cough up $12 to $15 per shell for loads that offer little if any benefit at the ranges I kill turkeys.


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Just making sense of cents. For the two birds I have shot in the woods I hunt, copper plated 6s did the same on bird #2 than the TSS did on bird #1. There's a time and place, and I am not against TSS, but people really need to pay attention to the details like you've laid out as opposed to just buying "snake oil"

The jury is still out for me. I have a Mossberg 835 and a Beretta 12 gauges both set up with lead. They do a respectable job. My Mossberg SA-20 I`m patterning with #8 tss. After i have seen those tiny holes I do not think I want to go smaller. This tss deal is new to me. I like the lightness of the gun at my age. But I am open to other load options. I like to call them in close the last bird I killed was about 12-15 paces. I`m in the testing phase now. I shall see where this ends up.

Quote from: greentrout on April 16, 2022, 09:29:39 AM
Just making sense of cents. For the two birds I have shot in the woods I hunt, copper plated 6s did the same on bird #2 than the TSS did on bird #1. There's a time and place, and I am not against TSS, but people really need to pay attention to the details like you've laid out as opposed to just buying "snake oil"

At #8.5 and smaller, there's a very real advantage, especially with sub gauges and smaller pay loads. A .410 shooting a load of TSS #10s with a greater pellet count than 2oz of copper plated lead #5s or #6s from a 12ga is a very very real advantage. But, in my opinion, you have to get to #8.5 for that advantage and cost to start making sense. I don't even know why they're making loads in TSS #7. That IS, as you put it, snake oil!


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Quote from: Old Timer on April 16, 2022, 09:34:46 AM
The jury is still out for me. I have a Mossberg 835 and a Beretta 12 gauges both set up with lead. They do a respectable job. My Mossberg SA-20 I`m patterning with #8 tss. After i have seen those tiny holes I do not think I want to go smaller. This tss deal is new to me. I like the lightness of the gun at my age. But I am open to other load options. I like to call them in close the last bird I killed was about 12-15 paces. I`m in the testing phase now. I shall see where this ends up.

At close ranges, and really anything 40 and under, TSS #10s will WRECK a gobbler. The density is just so much greater. The efficacy of #9s extends well past that. Simplest way to understand the difference in density, bite down on a piece of lead from a shot up breast and then bite down on a piece of TSS (typically it ain't getting caught anyhow). The latter will have you in a dentist chair


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First off...  For the majority of birds many of us shoot, they probably would have died with cheap Walmart target loads...  I would not shoot, nor recommend hunting turkeys with them though...

I have not shot TSS, but the appeal is denser material maintaining downrange energy longer, and which also holds tighter more consistent patterns.

I have shot (and do shoot) Hevi-shot, and out of the same choke, 1 3/8 oz Hevi-shot had a higher pellet count in a 10 in circle than did my 2 oz turkey loads at the same 40 yards with the same choke (the Hevi-shot load has far few pellets in the shell than did the 2 oz lead load)...  That is what sold me on Hevi-shot over a decade ago; I assume we find similar results with TSS?

Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on April 16, 2022, 09:34:54 AM
I don't even know why they're making loads in TSS #7. That IS, as you put it, snake oil!

I wonder if it was pure marketing, to appeal to the crowd that had become accustomed to, and comfortable with, heavyweight 7s, but might be skeptical of the 8s and 9s. 

 ??? Wow my my head is really spinning now!

I have bit into TSS twice. The first time resulted in a new tooth and a lighter wallet. The second time, just a slight chip that the dentist wasn't concerned over.

I totally agree that it makes no sense to shoot #7 or #8 TSS. I chase birds all over the country. The last 2 years I've almost exclusively used a .410 or 28 with 9.5 TSS or a combo of 9.5 and 10. This setup is absolutely devastating at 40 yds and on paper probably even to 50 yds if I were to underestimate the distance.

I prefer 30-35 yds, but at 40yds if I do my job, the bird is dead. It is a joy to tote a subgauge gun. Yesterday, I walked 6.4 miles in search of a gobbling gobbler carrying my 28. It's so much nicer than the 12 from a weight standpoint.

I ran into a guy at a local sporting goods store getting ready to buy some #7 TSS for his 20 gauge for an upcoming trip  next month in SD. He was dubious, but I talked him out of it and into buying #9 TSS. I showed him a 40 yd pattern with #9.5 TSS on my phone. The density amazed him and sold him.

The dumbest thing I've seen lately was a guy telling me about using his goose #2 TSS to shoot turkeys.

Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on April 16, 2022, 09:51:58 AM

Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on April 16, 2022, 09:34:54 AM
I don't even know why they're making loads in TSS #7. That IS, as you put it, snake oil!

I wonder if it was pure marketing, to appeal to the crowd that had become accustomed to, and comfortable with, heavyweight 7s, but might be skeptical of the 8s and 9s.

It may also be a matter of appealing to consumers in states with shot size limitations. My point would be that in those states the regulations negate any reason for paying $12-$15 per shell. It just ain't worth it.

And, yes, I think you're also right about a hesitancy and skepticism of people with #9s and especially #10s (and I've seen #10.5s). That's evident in this thread. But you watch those #9s crush a few and you won't ever think that way again. At this point there's way too many dead gobblers from #9s and #10s to even think twice about it. It's absolute kryptonite.


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Quote from: PalmettoRon on April 16, 2022, 10:01:21 AM
The dumbest thing I've seen lately was a guy telling me about using his goose #2 TSS to shoot turkeys.

I tell you one thing I would like to watch: I'd love to see what those Apex TSS predator loads would do to a coyote. I bet it would be devastating.


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I suspect that the #7 is intended for those in states with shot size limitations.  I agree that the greatest benefit of TSS is the number of shot in the smaller shot sizes.  My cut off is currently 8.5s that I hand load.  That's not necessarily because I'm opposed to#8s but because of a load/shot size combination discussion I had with the supplier.  The sad fact is that the majority of folks aren't digging into the details though and are mostly buying into TSS because it's marketed as long range ammo.   

Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on April 16, 2022, 10:03:55 AM

Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on April 16, 2022, 09:51:58 AM

Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on April 16, 2022, 09:34:54 AM
I don't even know why they're making loads in TSS #7. That IS, as you put it, snake oil!

I wonder if it was pure marketing, to appeal to the crowd that had become accustomed to, and comfortable with, heavyweight 7s, but might be skeptical of the 8s and 9s.

It may also be a matter of appealing to consumers in states with shot size limitations. My point would be that in those states the regulations negate any reason for paying $12-$15 per shell. It just ain't worth it.

And, yes, I think you're also right about a hesitancy and skepticism of people with #9s and especially #10s (and I've seen #10.5s). That's evident in this thread. But you watch those #9s crush a few and you won't ever think that way again. At this point there's way too many dead gobblers from #9s and #10s to even think twice about it. It's absolute kryptonite.


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I agree that state shot restrictions are likely a factor.  But then they go and distribute those TSS 7s to numerous states that don't require them.  Federal should have just continued to make the 7s in 15 g/cc heavyweight.


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At the present time Iowa restricts us to 8 & smaller. I'm not impressed with any 7tss, but have been happy with Hevi13 in my 20, but still restrict myself to  a 40 yard max. I only have a limited amount of Hevi left. A little arithmetic tells me I'm shooting about the same number of pellets down range as I was with my 12ga 3 1/2" load of 5's and they hit about as hard.
TWO COMMENTS-
Why even mention Hevi13 since it's not really available.
TSS is no worse on your teeth and steel shot for waterfowl.

Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on April 16, 2022, 10:38:41 AM

Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on April 16, 2022, 10:03:55 AM

Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on April 16, 2022, 09:51:58 AM

Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on April 16, 2022, 09:34:54 AM
I don't even know why they're making loads in TSS #7. That IS, as you put it, snake oil!

I wonder if it was pure marketing, to appeal to the crowd that had become accustomed to, and comfortable with, heavyweight 7s, but might be skeptical of the 8s and 9s.

It may also be a matter of appealing to consumers in states with shot size limitations. My point would be that in those states the regulations negate any reason for paying $12-$15 per shell. It just ain't worth it.

And, yes, I think you're also right about a hesitancy and skepticism of people with #9s and especially #10s (and I've seen #10.5s). That's evident in this thread. But you watch those #9s crush a few and you won't ever think that way again. At this point there's way too many dead gobblers from #9s and #10s to even think twice about it. It's absolute kryptonite.


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I agree that state shot restrictions are likely a factor.  But then they go and distribute those TSS 7s to numerous states that don't require them.  Federal should have just continued to make the 7s in 15 g/cc heavyweight.


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I don't know that it's federal doing the distributing as much as the stores doing the ordering.  The folks placing orders are likely ordering all ammunition for a store and may not have a clue. 

Quote from: 2eagles on April 16, 2022, 10:47:01 AM
Why even mention Hevi13 since it's not really available.

As the original post said, "God I wish they still made Hevi13." It was and is a superior load in states with shot size restrictions. That was the worst discontinuance of a turkey shot shell in history in my opinion. I would like to pattern some of the Hevi XII in #6. Same pellet count as copper plated lead, but it might be a nasty pattern. If I was in a restricted state I'd really be trying to pattern those. A shame the shell I'm most interested in from Hevi now is intended as a duck load. They don't have any turkey offerings that I'd fork over money for. None.


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was talking with a fellow in the neighborhood yesterday evening and he was telling me about his new turkey loads. some sort of TSS and he said he didn't bat an eye to pay $15 per round. told me he could kill a gobbler out to 120yds.   I told him there were two different types of people in the spring turkey woods...real turkey hunters and those that just want to kill a gobbler at any cost (or distance) just for the hero shot. he might as well carry a varmint rifle. like the opening song to Ol Archie Bunker..."those were the days". yep, the days when calling in a bird close enough to kill him with an old polk stock with the same shells you squirrel hunted with the fall before. the innerweb and "SPECIAL" ammo has ruined the real meaning of spring gobbler hunting and the younger crowd just getting started. my advice....save your money and learn to hunt and call the all mighty spring gobbler. the reward is priceless.

I just can't see paying that much for turkey loads.  That's why I'm a holdout. My brother shoots TSS and always trys to sell me on it but I'm standing firm. Not that I dont spend $$ on other things but that's dang sure alot of $$ for one shot. I still shoot 2 3/4 inch 5 and 6s!! Lol

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Just jumped into the 20g game, hunt New Jersey where 7 1/2 is smallest shot allowed. Only 3" shot I can find is TSS or steel. Bought some 7 & 9 TSS blend, hoping that's all right with rules. Found a box of 20g #7 steel to use to sight gun in with. With my old 12 used Hevi 13 # 6, used everything I had up, tried their Hevi Strut , didnt pattern as well.  Hoping Jersey will allow #9 next year.

I had to load TSS 7.5 for legality in a state I will hunt this year, weather or not the number of pellets per ounce show an advantage doesn't matter, it still drastically out shoots lead and Hevi 7s as well as federal heavyweight!


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Quote from: JeffC on April 16, 2022, 03:59:46 PM
Just jumped into the 20g game, hunt New Jersey where 7 1/2 is smallest shot allowed. Only 3" shot I can find is TSS or steel. Bought some 7 & 9 TSS blend, hoping that's all right with rules. Found a box of 20g #7 steel to use to sight gun in with. With my old 12 used Hevi 13 # 6, used everything I had up, tried their Hevi Strut , didnt pattern as well.  Hoping Jersey will allow #9 next year.

If #7.5 is the smallest shot allowed then a duplex load containing #9s would not be legal.


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Quote from: Dtrkyman on April 16, 2022, 04:23:47 PM
I had to load TSS 7.5 for legality in a state I will hunt this year, weather or not the number of pellets per ounce show an advantage doesn't matter, it still drastically out shoots lead and Hevi 7s as well as federal heavyweight!


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By "out shoots" do you mean it patterns better out of your set up? That's surely possible. With less pellets, I doubt it would be enough difference to warrant that cost for me, but I could surely understand wanting the absolute best pattern your gun could have. If you mean "out shoots" with regard to lethality, it's just not true. At 40 and under TSS doesn't kill a bird any more dead than anything else you listed. They're all flopping.


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I'll go to tss when my lead numbers 5s won't kill a tom. I know that's not the argument here but I just don't see the point is the extra cost. This past week I bought my usual double x 3.5 inch #5s for 16$. They had hevi 18 for 80$ for 5 shells. Maybe if I reloaded but I just don't see the point. Dead is dead

I will get a 20 ga this year, maybe a 410. For me I think this is where TSS really shines.

But if you want to shoot TSS out of 12 ga, go for it. It's not like it will degrade or hinder your shot.

Kinda weird that people are hating on TSS.

Quote from: Crghss on April 16, 2022, 07:58:48 PM
I will get a 20 ga this year, maybe a 410. For me I think this is where TSS really shines.

But if you want to shoot TSS out of 12 ga, go for it. It's not like it will degrade or hinder your shot.

Kinda weird that people are hating on TSS.

Definitely shines in sub gauges. It's the only thing that makes the super small sub gauges viable weapons for turkeys. I shoot it out of 20s and 12s. But I stick with #8.5s and #9s. My point is only that once you get to #8s and bigger the reward doesn't warrant the cost for me.

People will always hate on things that cost money. "Why you need $1,000 worth of Sitka gear to kill a whitetail?!? I kill 'em in blue jeans and flannel!" Sure, but, sit on stand through a -5 morning and you'd wish to God you owned the Sitka. The point here's the same, though, there has to be a real tangible advantage and when TSS gets larger than #8 it just doesn't have the advantage that warrants that price difference. In #9s, and even #10s in .410, it most certainly does.


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Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on April 16, 2022, 08:08:29 PM

Quote from: Crghss on April 16, 2022, 07:58:48 PM
I will get a 20 ga this year, maybe a 410. For me I think this is where TSS really shines.

But if you want to shoot TSS out of 12 ga, go for it. It's not like it will degrade or hinder your shot.

Kinda weird that people are hating on TSS.

Definitely shines in sub gauges. It's the only thing that makes the super small sub gauges viable weapons for turkeys. I shoot it out of 20s and 12s. But I stick with #8.5s and #9s. My point is only that once you get to #8s and bigger the reward doesn't warrant the cost for me.

People will always hate on things that cost money. "Why you need $1,000 worth of Sitka gear to kill a whitetail?!? I kill 'em in blue jeans and flannel!" Sure, but, sit on stand through a -5 morning and you'd wish to God you owned the Sitka. The point here's the same, though, there has to be a real tangible advantage and when TSS gets larger than #8 it just doesn't have the advantage that warrants that price difference. In #9s, and even #10s in .410, it most certainly does.


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Say what? Have no idea what the point is. Once you pattern you're shotgun then it may cost, per shot, per turkey, per year, $5 or more. If I shoot 2 turkeys a year, every year then my cost go up, at most $10? Why is this a discussion? When one of my 2 shotguns cost $400 the other $800, clothes, calls, license/tags. Why does $100 over 10 years Shooting 2 turkeys a year matter?

Quote from: Crghss on April 16, 2022, 08:36:59 PM
Why does $100 over 10 years Shooting 2 turkeys a year matter?

Doesn't to me. We're on the same page. I shoot TSS out of every gun I hunt with, two 12s and three 20s. TSS in #8.5 and smaller, the advantage warrants the cost. My response was to your question of why people hate on it. People hate on it because it's $12-$15 per shell. To them that cost isn't something they can justify.


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Better patterns Chester, dead is dead, though I bet a stray TSS 7.5 may blow through the body of a bird?

I already handload and trade for some legal shot size for my hunt, I normally shoot 9s, but started with 9.5s as that is all that Hal had at that time, they worked fantastic as well.

I do not recall the cost of my handloads, thought it was around 6 bux?  I saw a box of five federals for 70 bux...ouch.

Quote from: Dtrkyman on April 16, 2022, 09:22:05 PM
Better patterns Chester, dead is dead, though I bet a stray TSS 7.5 may blow through the body of a bird?

I already handload and trade for some legal shot size for my hunt, I normally shoot 9s, but started with 9.5s as that is all that Hal had at that time, they worked fantastic as well.

I do not recall the cost of my handloads, thought it was around 6 bux?  I saw a box of five federals for 70 bux...ouch.

Better patterns is a great reason. And at $6 a shell, you're shooting cheaper than Hevi 13s typically were. Handloading would be the exception to everything I'm saying. Going from $4 a shell for LongBeards in #6 to $6 a shell for TSS in a #7 or #7.5 for restricted states, that's justifiable and makes good sense to me.

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 1 real world advantage of #7 TSS would be for a backup shot on an already hit and getting away turkey if your using a single shot shotgun.
I hunt with a single shot 20ga., it has 2 rubber bands around the forearm that hold a #7 TSS shell in place  for a fast follow up shot.

If something goes wrong with the first shot, by the time you reload most people are going to be as Col. Tom Kelly puts it "shooting at turkey, all of turkey". #8 TSS would be fine for most backup shots, but #7 TSS will hold a tighter center core and penetrate better than #8's or 9's.

this particular gun has a fixed Xfull choke, at 40yds the 10" averages only 8-9 pellets less with Tss #8's than with #9's. I hunt with 8's in this gun for the first shot, no reason not to.

I hunt with TSS #9's in another 20 and am aware of what they will do. In my opinion #9 TSS are better killers than the fed 15g/cc HVWT #7's  which were/are deadly on gobblers.

Another reason people might use 7's is if they have a lot of coyotes
around.

Another reason someone might use TSS #7  is they found them for $35 in 20ga.

Quote from: Sungrazer on April 17, 2022, 07:35:57 PM
Another reason someone might use TSS #7  is they found them for $35 in 20ga.

That's a real good reason.


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Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on April 17, 2022, 08:42:10 PM

Quote from: Sungrazer on April 17, 2022, 07:35:57 PM
Another reason someone might use TSS #7  is they found them for $35 in 20ga.

That's a real good reason.


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#7 drops them dead just like #9 does. If I find 7 tss on sale I will buy it. No need to get scientific with it. Working guys buy what is on sale.

  I am staying with what has always worked. #4 Copper or Nickel Plated Shot.
  Remember  the old- ACTIV Turkey Penetrators  that came in 2 1/4ozs of Nickel plated shot? There is not much flopping when hammered by a Activ shotshell with Nickel.
   I still have a few boxes left . Too old though.
   Plan on using Winchester Super× in Copper Plated #4s. If it ain't  broke-- Don't  Fix it.

Unless you are shooting a sub gauge gun or needing to shoot birds at 60+ yards, there is no logical reason to use TSS.

7's are good in grizzly country.