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I got to wondering last night about something as we're set for some real high winds today and tonight with the North Carolina opener tomorrow morning. Outside of spring the turkeys around me here in the mountains will leave the high ground and shelter in the bottoms when the wind gets up for days on end. But what I got to wondering was once toms establish their leks are they affected at all by weather? Do they move if it gets too windy or too wet or snows? Or do they just ride it out knowing the weather pattern won't hold, and because they've already established this is my spot, this is where my hens come? Same can be said for hens and I imagine we'll all agree once their on the nest they just have to hunker down and ride it out. Personally I doubt the gobblers move much from that core area they've established, at least during peak breeding.


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I'm in the piedmont of N.C. and they stay in the fields on high wind and  or wet days but don't move.

Quote from: ol bob on April 08, 2022, 09:37:25 AM
I'm in the piedmont of N.C. and they stay in the fields on high wind and  or wet days but don't move.

I should specify, I mean big wood birds. Them old ridge running timber gabriels that ain't got fields to run to.


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Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on April 08, 2022, 09:46:43 AM

Quote from: ol bob on April 08, 2022, 09:37:25 AM
I'm in the piedmont of N.C. and they stay in the fields on high wind and  or wet days but don't move.

I should specify, I mean big wood birds. Them old ridge running timber gabriels that ain't got fields to run to.


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I have definitely observed lower roost sites in the NC mtns on nights like we are getting tonight.  They usually roost high and go low first thing, so it will be a crapshoot if they stay low or go high tomorrow!

I think the term Lek is used by biologist pretty loosely in the turkey woods. I think it's used more for the behaviour of Tom's displaying and attracting hens than the actual location. I've heard it called an exploded Lek involving turkeys across the countryside trying to attract hens where as shartptail grouse leks are specific areas birds show up at annually to display.

In the turkey woods the attracting of hens is not dedicated to a single location, it's a mobile thing. Tom's display when ever and where ever they feel like displaying in their home range. There are certain spots within the home ranges that offer a better chance of the display being effective. A point on a ridge over looking a large valley is a good spot for gobbling to be heard. A tom doesn't limit himself to sitting on this spot the entire season to try to attract hens. He's got multiple areas within his home range he likes to use and the use of these spots aren't limited to just him.

He may like to start the day off on that point as it's a good location for his gobbling to be heard and move to the valley floor where open hardwoods are a good location for his strutting to be seen. The next day may find him on the other side of the ridge overlooking a different valley or on a large flat that has been recently logged.

I would think weather would play a role in which areas he chooses as much for security reasons as it is for for breeding. I don't see a Tom's wanting to sit on top of a ridge gobbling and strutting to attract hens in a 30mph wind. It's a bad location for security reasons. The wind ripping through the woods takes his hearing and eyesight out of play when detecting predators. A sheltered valley with that wind blowing over the top can be quite calm and peaceful offering security and a place to display and attract hens. Rainey days may have him in that logged off area where he can at least use his eyesight to detect predators. Nice calm sunny days his options are greatly expanded security wise and you may find him anywhere.

Yes, exploded lek is correct. And as an example, on the ridge above my house I can hear six or seven gobblers in the same general areas every morning. They're all within earshot of one another. They all tend to stay in their given area. They've all got their own hens. Surely there are gobblers that roam, and all seem to hit the road and wander late in the season, but during peak breeding where I am for the most part they stay put. So my question is what happens when one's given area is more adversely affected by weather compared to another? Does he leave that core area and risk pushing into another gobbler's territory? Does he abandon his hens for the time being or attempt to take them with him?


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I think when they use the term exploded Lek it cover an area greater than what you can hear. Move to the perimeter of the the area you described and the exploded lek expands beyond that area as well. The Lek dont move as it encompasses an area far greater than what you are able to hear. The positioning of the toms within the exploded Lek definitely changes according to what phase breeding cycle they are in and of course weather as I've explained above. Weather is more of a security risk to them and they act accordingly to mitigate that risk. If he's sitting on a point over looking a valley with a 30 mph wind blowing in his face he's most likely not going to stay there for long. There will be too much movement and too much noise for him to use his most powerful tools in detecting danger. Of the different toms you describe, 6 or 7 I think the number was, there will be a pecking order established even though they are not hanging together. If the boss wants to move he will, the other toms will respect his movements or there will be a fight. The Boss will decide which area he wants and the satellite toms will adjust accordingly.

You say the Toms have thier core area and tend not to move from these areas until later in the season. My understanding is what you call core areas are most likely the best areas for display. The most dominant Tom will pick the best spot. So my question to you would be, are you sure it's the same Tom in the same spot day after day, which most certainly can be the case under stable good weather conditions, or is it a case the the area is good for display and multiple toms use it and depends on the movements of more dominant toms that dictate which of these good display positions the subordinates will use that day.

I suppose I've not heard the term "exploded lek" when referring to turkeys.  I'm not saying that's not the correct term but turkeys definitely don't have a lek anything remotely similar to what a sharptail or sage grouse does.

Quote from: Hobbes on April 08, 2022, 07:38:31 PM
I suppose I've not heard the term "exploded lek" when referring to turkeys.  I'm not saying that's not the correct term but turkeys definitely don't have a lek anything remotely similar to what a sharptail or sage grouse does.

Exploded lek is the correct biological term, and, no, it's not anything like the leks of grouse or other birds. My question just boils down to the gobbler's core area, the given area he claims for himself. For some, and in the case of the birds I'm talking about, it seems very very defined. And my questions is whether those boundaries get blurred as a result of weather?


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Quote from: Hobbes on April 08, 2022, 07:38:31 PM
I suppose I've not heard the term "exploded lek" when referring to turkeys.  I'm not saying that's not the correct term but turkeys definitely don't have a lek anything remotely similar to what a sharptail or sage grouse does.

I haven't heard of the term exploded Lek until recently. From what I understand, In theory the exploded Lek could encompass the whole of the Appalachian mountains or any other mountain range/geographical feature that holds turkey's during the breeding season. That's pretty large scale and I think the Exploded Lek can be narrowed down considerably. Imo the similarity with sharptail and sage grouse come from display/gobbling of turkey's to the display/cooing from the grouse trying to attract a mate and the fact that dominant birds choose the best positions within the Lek/exploded Lek to attract mates it's just the turkey Lek is on a much larger scale than that of the grouse.

In Chestercopperpot's example it's my opinion gobblers  that can hear each other have a pecking order with a dominant bird. That pecking order influences the behavior of the gobblers in the area. The Boss takes the best position depending on variables such as weather, elevation, visibility, food sources for hens, and so on. The best position may change from day to day, within the day, or it may stay static for a period of time. The subordinate gobblers adjust accordingly. The fact that every gobbler in Chester's example seems to have hens has nothing to with the pecking order established between gobblers. The pecking order only delineates the position of the Tom in the hierarchy between gobblers. The hens choose which tom they like the best not necessarily because he's biggest baddest bird in the flock, being the biggest baddest allows him the best position to display to hens thus attracting more hens to view his display allowing him to breed with more hens before they move off to breed with another gobbler. It may be with one of the surrounding toms or with a gobbler 3 miles away.

As an example, I hunted an area last spring. It was a creek bed in fairly flat terrain. I set up on a roosted gobbler and found he had hens with him. Soon after a murder of crows moved in and created quite the racket. Between the hens cutting and the crows cawing the Gobbler barely took a breath between gobbles. During this time I hear far off gobbles, maybe ¾'s of a mile away. Figuring my odds were zero to none on the Gobbler I was set up on I slowly made my way over to where I heard the distant gobbles.

By the time I reached the new area the gobbles had ceased. I crossed the creek, set up, and did some calling. It didn't take long for lone hen to reply. We got into a little back and forth and she crossed the creek coming towards me. A gobbler sounded off just out of sight to my right. It was on of them quiet gobbles and only one. The hen turned and headed his direction. Soon the woods were quiet again.

I sat for a while calling moderately in hopes of drawing a response from the Tom. Did the hen lead him away? I called more aggressively and heard a gobble in the distance in front of me. I kept up the aggressive calling and the gobbles got closer. At about 150yds the Gobbler hung up. Turns out there were 2 of them and they drew a line in sand. I kept calling to them as that's what got them going in the 1st place and they kept gobbling. I was thinking of the silent treatment when another sounded of to my left. He was far off but moving closer as I called. The 2 in front of me kept gobbling but not nearly as aggressively. The Tom to my right sounded of with a courtesy gobble. He had moved off to about 200 yds. He only gobbled on more time during this mix up.  Meanwhile the Gobbler to my left was close enough I could hear his drumming. I couldn't see him as he was  behind a slight rise that was 25yds  out. All the sudden behind me hens erupted in cutting. I threw it back at them and the 3 of them hopped the creek and yet another Tom sounds off behind them.  The original Gobbler and hens I set up on early that mourning. That makes 5 gobblers and 4 hens in close proximity to me that were in entirely different areas throughout the mourn until this point in time. The hens came across the creek but he would not budge and he was gobbling up a storm. The hens came up to the small rise between me and the drumming Gobbler, clearly the Boss. The hens cutt and looked for me for a few mins before moving away with the drumming Tom in tow.

The new arrival behind me kept ripping it up but would come no closer. The 2 out in front of me pretty much shut up when the hens showed up cutting. Finally I moved on him when I felt the hens and the boss were far enough to safely do so. It took some time to recross the creek and find a new set up. By this time he had moved off. When I finally got a response from him, he was 200yds away and heading back towards where he started the mourning. He responded 2 more times in short order and it started to rain. I could draw no more responses from him. He was out of there. The heavy drizzle took away one of his best tools for defense. I would need to find a more open area where he could use his eyes if I was to have luck calling him in. After waiting about ½ hour and getting soaking wet, I headed to the truck.
That was the second to the last day of the season may 29th. 5 gobblers from different areas converged on me. 3 of which had hens close or paying attention to them at some point in the mourning even though I was aware of only 4 hens. 3 of the hens interacted with 2 of the gobblers. Of the 5 gobblers there was only one boss. Earlier in the season it may not have happened that way as there would most likely be more hens to go around keeping the toms in their original areas.

My experience  hunting from Georgia to Mn and states in between over 30 years leads me to believe the behavior of turkey's in the exploded Lek are similar to what I've described above.


I'm getting tired of changing elk back to Lek. Stupid spell check!

Forgive the stupid question, I have never heard the term "lek" before, what exactly does it mean and what is it derived from? Thanks.

Quote from: Sir-diealot on April 09, 2022, 01:02:58 AM
Forgive the stupid question, I have never heard the term "lek" before, what exactly does it mean and what is it derived from? Thanks.

This is a sharptail grouse lek in Montana that I got some video of around 10 years ago.  There are probably lots of better videos out there.

https://youtu.be/kH9TzKa6fp4

A lek is a term used to describe the breeding grounds mainly of shartptail and sage grouse. it's a particular area with shorter grass where the males of the species show up and display for mating purposes. The hens visit the leks to find suitable mates.

Quote from: Hobbes on April 09, 2022, 01:11:26 AM

Quote from: Sir-diealot on April 09, 2022, 01:02:58 AM
Forgive the stupid question, I have never heard the term "lek" before, what exactly does it mean and what is it derived from? Thanks.

This is a sharptail grouse lek in Montana that I got some video of around 10 years ago.  There are probably lots of better videos out there.

https://youtu.be/kH9TzKa6fp4

We actually have a few shartptail leks near our cabin north of McGregor, Mn. one has viewing blinds set up for the public to reserve and watch the antics.

I hunt the "Big Woods Eastern's". On an extremely windy day, I'll hunt any open area, ie gas lines, power lines, fields. If they are not in your terrain, I'll start on the "sheltered side of the parcel", less windy side. I find the turkeys are super wary in the wind, but if your patient, and call loud they will come.....roost site have varied due to extreme winds....

It's something nobody ever heard of until Chamberlain went on the meateater podcast and now everyone uses it thinking they are biologist.

Quote from: Stoeger_bird on April 09, 2022, 05:49:33 AM
It's something nobody ever heard of until Chamberlain went on the meateater podcast and now everyone uses it thinking they are biologist.

Exploded leks aren't a behavioral phenomena specific to turkeys. But you can call it whatever you'd like—range, core area, it don't matter to me—my question remains the same.


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Quote from: Paulmyr on April 08, 2022, 01:06:25 PM
I think when they use the term exploded Lek it cover an area greater than what you can hear. Move to the perimeter of the the area you described and the exploded lek expands beyond that area as well. The Lek dont move as it encompasses an area far greater than what you are able to hear.

I think you're likely right about what may be happening, which is that the leks are large enough that each likely offers sufficient places of shelter. They are areas bigger than WE can hear, but if the population is good it's not an area bigger than what THEY can hear. It's deliberately within earshot.

What made me wonder this question specifically is in this particular area there's a lot of mature birds and they fight like cats and dogs. Those areas are tight largely because so much of the landscape is unusable. Boundary disputes are happening every day. I watch these birds yearround and every spring they set up in those same general areas with the dominant bird in the best spot and the subordinate birds bickering over the secondary locations around it. They are large areas but clustered tightly. What I wondered was if the boss's location offers the most sufficient shelter from a weather system and one of the subordinates doesn't have a place to ride it out does he venture into that territory knowing he'll likely get his brains knocked out? Does he say, "F**k it, Joe! I might get my a** whipped but it beats hell out of freezing to death!" Or does he ride it out as a matter of subordinance and an unwillingness to leave an area where he may very well have hens?


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I learned something new today, I have never heard of "lek" or what it means. Interesting stuff.

I would think the dominant gobbler would tolerate the presence of a subordinate as long as the sub minds his manners, even more so if the boss has ladies to tend too.

Quote from: the Ward on April 09, 2022, 08:18:50 AM
I learned something new today, I have never heard of "lek" or what it means. Interesting stuff.

Most people think grouse, but it ain't just grouse and it ain't just birds. There's fish use leks (what most anybody who fishes would call beds for bluegill in spring and summer, those are leks). Bugs. All kinds of animals that display for breeding use them. Exploded leks are just larger scale, bigger area; too big for eyesight but still a matter of earshot. I think exploded leks are specific to birds, but maybe not. Might be some other critter screams loud


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Quote from: Stoeger_bird on April 09, 2022, 05:49:33 AM
It's something nobody ever heard of until Chamberlain went on the meateater podcast and now everyone uses it thinking they are biologist.

That right there is a valuable addition to this discussion. I'm patiently waiting for more wisdom and intellect like this.

Quote from: Stoeger_bird on April 09, 2022, 05:49:33 AM
It's something nobody ever heard of until Chamberlain went on the meateater podcast and now everyone uses it thinking they are biologist.

:TooFunny:
I'd say that's pretty accurate because I don't recall the term ever used to discuss hunting turkeys.  However it apparently does apply to turkeys even if it is rather loosely and only used by a few biologists.

Wikipedia isn't the best source but is usually the fastest:

A lek is an aggregation of male animals gathered to engage in competitive displays and courtship rituals, known as lekking, to entice visiting females which are surveying prospective partners with which to mate.[1] A lek can also indicate an available plot of space able to be utilized by displaying males to defend their own share of territory for the breeding season. A lekking species is characterised by male displays, strong female mate choice, and the conferring of indirect benefits to males and reduced costs to females. Although most prevalent among birds such as black grouse, lekking is also found in a wide range of vertebrates including some bony fish, amphibians, reptiles, and mammals, and arthropods including crustaceans and insects.

Armchair biology 101:
;)
The displaying part and hens selecting a male is as far as it goes.  I've never witnessed a gobbler defending territory.  He'll wallop a bird that gets near a hen but he's not marking out boundaries like a coyote or defending a ridge.  I've also never witnessed weather making him leave hens or whatever core area he typically calls home except for snow that could push birds lower in elevation.  He will however, regardless of the idea that he gobbles and calls them in, follow those hens to hell and back if they take a mind to visit.  One thing that I know keeps him in an area is those hens.  As they establish a nest, they aren't straying too far from it, so he'll remain within the area that the hens use within some distance of their nest.

Hunting pressure is more likely to move him than anything in my opinion, but even then it's likely that he's just zipped it up instead of moved on.

Quote from: Hobbes on April 09, 2022, 09:14:11 AM
Armchair biology 101:
;)
The displaying part and hens selecting a male is as far as it goes.  I've never witnessed a gobbler defending territory.  He'll wallop a bird that gets near a hen but he's not marking out boundaries like a coyote or defending a ridge.  I've also never witnessed weather making him leave hens or whatever core area he typically calls home except for snow that could push birds lower in elevation.  He will however, regardless of the idea that he gobbles and calls them in, follow those hens to hell and back if they take a mind to visit.  One thing that I know keeps him in an area is those hens.  As they establish a nest, they aren't straying too far from it, so he'll remain within the area that the hens use within some distance of their nest.

Hunting pressure is more likely to move him than anything in my opinion, but even then it's likely that he's just zipped it up instead of moved on.

Again, you can call it anything you'd like. Anything that makes you happy. We all know what I'm talking about. Choose whatever term you want. Answer the question: will he leave hens and/or disregard subordinance as a result of extreme weather patterns? Temp dropped 50 degrees from two days ago, the wind is howling, and there's an inch of snow on the ground this morning. I'm at 3,500ft. It's opening day. If hens have established nesting areas and he's dead center, does he leave the hens to escape the weather?


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Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on April 09, 2022, 09:39:06 AM

Quote from: Hobbes on April 09, 2022, 09:14:11 AM
Armchair biology 101:
;)
The displaying part and hens selecting a male is as far as it goes.  I've never witnessed a gobbler defending territory.  He'll wallop a bird that gets near a hen but he's not marking out boundaries like a coyote or defending a ridge.  I've also never witnessed weather making him leave hens or whatever core area he typically calls home except for snow that could push birds lower in elevation.  He will however, regardless of the idea that he gobbles and calls them in, follow those hens to hell and back if they take a mind to visit.  One thing that I know keeps him in an area is those hens.  As they establish a nest, they aren't straying too far from it, so he'll remain within the area that the hens use within some distance of their nest.

Hunting pressure is more likely to move him than anything in my opinion, but even then it's likely that he's just zipped it up instead of moved on.

Again, you can call it anything you'd like. Anything that makes you happy. We all know what I'm talking about. Choose whatever term you want. Answer the question: will he leave hens and/or disregard subordinance as a result of extreme weather patterns? Temp dropped 50 degrees from two days ago, the wind is howling, and there's an inch of snow on the ground this morning. I'm at 3,500ft. It's opening day. If hens have established nesting areas and he's dead center, does he leave the hens to escape the weather?


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It would be my guess he wouldn't have to leave the hens as they would be looking for the same sheltered areas he would be looking for. He knows from past experience where these sheltered spots are for whatever weather is at hand and will either follow the hens or meet them there.

Quote from: Paulmyr on April 09, 2022, 12:30:46 AM

Quote from: Hobbes on April 08, 2022, 07:38:31 PM
I suppose I've not heard the term "exploded lek" when referring to turkeys.  I'm not saying that's not the correct term but turkeys definitely don't have a lek anything remotely similar to what a sharptail or sage grouse does.

I haven't heard of the term exploded Lek until recently. From what I understand, In theory the exploded Lek could encompass the whole of the Appalachian mountains or any other mountain range/geographical feature that holds turkey's during the breeding season. That's pretty large scale and I think the Exploded Lek can be narrowed down considerably. Imo the similarity with sharptail and sage grouse come from display/gobbling of turkey's to the display/cooing from the grouse trying to attract a mate and the fact that dominant birds choose the best positions within the Lek/exploded Lek to attract mates it's just the turkey Lek is on a much larger scale than that of the grouse.

In Chestercopperpot's example it's my opinion gobblers  that can hear each other have a pecking order with a dominant bird. That pecking order influences the behavior of the gobblers in the area. The Boss takes the best position depending on variables such as weather, elevation, visibility, food sources for hens, and so on. The best position may change from day to day, within the day, or it may stay static for a period of time. The subordinate gobblers adjust accordingly. The fact that every gobbler in Chester's example seems to have hens has nothing to with the pecking order established between gobblers. The pecking order only delineates the position of the Tom in the hierarchy between gobblers. The hens choose which tom they like the best not necessarily because he's biggest baddest bird in the flock, being the biggest baddest allows him the best position to display to hens thus attracting more hens to view his display allowing him to breed with more hens before they move off to breed with another gobbler. It may be with one of the surrounding toms or with a gobbler 3 miles away.

As an example, I hunted an area last spring. It was a creek bed in fairly flat terrain. I set up on a roosted gobbler and found he had hens with him. Soon after a murder of crows moved in and created quite the racket. Between the hens cutting and the crows cawing the Gobbler barely took a breath between gobbles. During this time I hear far off gobbles, maybe ¾'s of a mile away. Figuring my odds were zero to none on the Gobbler I was set up on I slowly made my way over to where I heard the distant gobbles.

By the time I reached the new area the gobbles had ceased. I crossed the creek, set up, and did some calling. It didn't take long for lone hen to reply. We got into a little back and forth and she crossed the creek coming towards me. A gobbler sounded off just out of sight to my right. It was on of them quiet gobbles and only one. The hen turned and headed his direction. Soon the woods were quiet again.

I sat for a while calling moderately in hopes of drawing a response from the Tom. Did the hen lead him away? I called more aggressively and heard a gobble in the distance in front of me. I kept up the aggressive calling and the gobbles got closer. At about 150yds the Gobbler hung up. Turns out there were 2 of them and they drew a line in sand. I kept calling to them as that's what got them going in the 1st place and they kept gobbling. I was thinking of the silent treatment when another sounded of to my left. He was far off but moving closer as I called. The 2 in front of me kept gobbling but not nearly as aggressively. The Tom to my right sounded of with a courtesy gobble. He had moved off to about 200 yds. He only gobbled on more time during this mix up.  Meanwhile the Gobbler to my left was close enough I could hear his drumming. I couldn't see him as he was  behind a slight rise that was 25yds  out. All the sudden behind me hens erupted in cutting. I threw it back at them and the 3 of them hopped the creek and yet another Tom sounds off behind them.  The original Gobbler and hens I set up on early that mourning. That makes 5 gobblers and 4 hens in close proximity to me that were in entirely different areas throughout the mourn until this point in time. The hens came across the creek but he would not budge and he was gobbling up a storm. The hens came up to the small rise between me and the drumming Gobbler, clearly the Boss. The hens cutt and looked for me for a few mins before moving away with the drumming Tom in tow.

The new arrival behind me kept ripping it up but would come no closer. The 2 out in front of me pretty much shut up when the hens showed up cutting. Finally I moved on him when I felt the hens and the boss were far enough to safely do so. It took some time to recross the creek and find a new set up. By this time he had moved off. When I finally got a response from him, he was 200yds away and heading back towards where he started the mourning. He responded 2 more times in short order and it started to rain. I could draw no more responses from him. He was out of there. The heavy drizzle took away one of his best tools for defense. I would need to find a more open area where he could use his eyes if I was to have luck calling him in. After waiting about ½ hour and getting soaking wet, I headed to the truck.
That was the second to the last day of the season may 29th. 5 gobblers from different areas converged on me. 3 of which had hens close or paying attention to them at some point in the mourning even though I was aware of only 4 hens. 3 of the hens interacted with 2 of the gobblers. Of the 5 gobblers there was only one boss. Earlier in the season it may not have happened that way as there would most likely be more hens to go around keeping the toms in their original areas.

My experience  hunting from Georgia to Mn and states in between over 30 years leads me to believe the behavior of turkey's in the exploded Lek are similar to what I've described above.


I'm getting tired of changing elk back to Lek. Stupid spell check!

AWESOME recounting and explanation of a fairly complex situation. Interesting thoughts.

Quote from: Paulmyr on April 09, 2022, 10:18:05 AM
It would be my guess he wouldn't have to leave the hens as they would be looking for the same sheltered areas he would be looking for. He knows from past experience where these sheltered spots are for whatever weather is at hand and will either follow the hens or meet them there.

You think the hens are leaving the area even after they've created a nest and are actively laying? Not on the nest, but visiting and laying daily? That seems to be the stage we're entering right now and that's what makes me think the hens are not going to go far regardless. I may be absolutely wrong (am a lot) and they may take off to weather the storm as well, but that's what made me believe he might have to consciously be leaving them behind to seek shelter and that's something I don't know whether he'd do or not.


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Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on April 09, 2022, 10:39:52 AM

Quote from: Paulmyr on April 09, 2022, 10:18:05 AM
It would be my guess he wouldn't have to leave the hens as they would be looking for the same sheltered areas he would be looking for. He knows from past experience where these sheltered spots are for whatever weather is at hand and will either follow the hens or meet them there.

You think the hens are leaving the area even after they've created a nest and are actively laying? Not on the nest, but visiting and laying daily? That seems to be the stage we're entering right now and that's what makes me think the hens are not going to go far regardless. I may be absolutely wrong (am a lot) and they may take off to weather the storm as well, but that's what made me believe he might have to consciously be leaving them behind to seek shelter and that's something I don't know whether he'd do or not.


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I guess that would be a matter of perspective when talking about hens leaving the area. Are they just hopping over the ridge to get to the lee side and out of the wind or does leaving the area mean traveling a mile or more to find sufficient shelter. I would think the core areas the turkeys are in would contain sheltered spots that allow for little movement when the weather gets tough. Turkeys only travel as far as they have to in order find what they need. If you a have diverse habitat  what turkeys need will not be too far away thus attracting more turkeys to the area. Habitat that lacks diversity may still hold turkeys but they will need to spend more energy to survive making these areas less suitable and less attractive. My guess is the area you speak of has plenty of what turkeys need to survive that's why they are there in good numbers from one year to the next.

Case in point. Where I hunt in northern Mn has vast stands of mature forest. Oaks, maple, birch, Aspen, and so on. When I first started hunting up there I drooled over these stands of mature forest. I took a couple years for me to recognized these stands were only attractive to turkeys during certain times of the year and spring time wasn't one of them. The turkeys I found in the spring were always along the perimeter where the habitat was more diverse.

Now put a logged off area into one of the stands of timber and by the next season there would be a decent chance of turkeys using it in the spring. Add few areas of new growth in different stages and the area became even more attractive to turkeys.

You may not approve of my dislike of a term that barely applies (because it's not an accurate depiction) but I did go on to say that "no" turkeys aren't leaving an area altogether or leaving hens because the weather sucks.

That weather that you describe is not enough to make turkeys move completely from an area.

Quote from: Hobbes on April 09, 2022, 01:50:23 PM
You may not approve of my dislike of a term that barely applies (because it's not an accurate depiction) but...

I could honestly care less about your dislike of terminology. What I disapprove of is the needless, tiresome, and loathsome nature of some people on this forum who continuously make the conscious decision to throw smart-alecked jabs rather than contribute anything meaningful to the conversation. That's it. If the topic is, "Is exploded lek an accurate description of turkey mating habits," sure, tell me why you hate it. But that wasn't what it was about. You knew what was being discussed and instead of just contributing something meaningful or just scrolling past you went out of your way to say that the people using that term were, "armchair biologists." It's needless and childish and useless to the forum.


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I have contributed twice on my feelings on whether a gobbler will moved based on weather.  I dislike the term because I've seen a real lek and what turkeys do is not the same behavior.  My apologies for riling you.  I'm out.

Quote from: Hobbes on April 09, 2022, 01:11:26 AM

Quote from: Sir-diealot on April 09, 2022, 01:02:58 AM
Forgive the stupid question, I have never heard the term "lek" before, what exactly does it mean and what is it derived from? Thanks.

This is a sharptail grouse lek in Montana that I got some video of around 10 years ago.  There are probably lots of better videos out there.

https://youtu.be/kH9TzKa6fp4

Thank you much. I was out coyote hunting with dogs not quite a month ago and as I was driving down the road with a passenger with me I saw these 5 birds to my right going into the woods. One had the feathers up on its neck and the other male had it's tail feathers up like a turkey. I asked my passenger what they were because one I did not get a great look as I was driving on a snowy/icy road and for two I had never seen them before and he informed me they were grouse. Now mind you I have heard them in the woods and knew exactly what they were because of that drum beat but I had never laid eyes on one let alone 5 before. I only wish I could have stopped and taken pictures, they were kind of weird looking to me with the neck feathers up in particular as well as the tail feathers on the second one. I am guessing the others must have been hens. Was a neat sight to see.

Thank you as well Paulmyr, for some reason it would not let me quote you.

Quote from: Sir-diealot on April 09, 2022, 03:24:05 PM

Quote from: Hobbes on April 09, 2022, 01:11:26 AM

Quote from: Sir-diealot on April 09, 2022, 01:02:58 AM
Forgive the stupid question, I have never heard the term "lek" before, what exactly does it mean and what is it derived from? Thanks.

This is a sharptail grouse lek in Montana that I got some video of around 10 years ago.  There are probably lots of better videos out there.

https://youtu.be/kH9TzKa6fp4

Thank you much. I was out coyote hunting with dogs not quite a month ago and as I was driving down the road with a passenger with me I saw these 5 birds to my right going into the woods. One had the feathers up on its neck and the other male had it's tail feathers up like a turkey. I asked my passenger what they were because one I did not get a great look as I was driving on a snowy/icy road and for two I had never seen them before and he informed me they were grouse. Now mind you I have heard them in the woods and knew exactly what they were because of that drum beat but I had never laid eyes on one let alone 5 before. I only wish I could have stopped and taken pictures, they were kind of weird looking to me with the neck feathers up in particular as well as the tail feathers on the second one. I am guessing the others must have been hens. Was a neat sight to see.

Thank you as well Paulmyr, for some reason it would not let me quote you.

Sounds to me like you've seen some ruffed grouse. I'd hate to use the terminology exploded Lek for their mating rituals for fear of being labeled an armchair biologist.

Ruffed grouse are similar to turkey in that they pick areas throughout the forest to display, unlike shartptail/sage grouse who show up to a particular area year after year. Ruffed grouse males choose the best position through out their home range to display and attract hens. Home range may be a bad choice of words as I think the birds are fairly nomadic. The posistions include a log of some sort that he can dig his claws into and beat his wings starting from slow and moving to a climax creating the drum beat you hear in the spring.

We've had one the past few years hanging around the cabin. Sometimes when the moon is bright his drumming will continue through the night. They are persistent little buggers. He's got a few logs scattered around the perimeter of the cabin he likes to use. Curious if he'll still be around this year. I hear them drumming in most places I turkey hunt in Mn and Wis.

You can hear the drumming in the fall although not as prevalent as in the spring. I'm not sure what the fall drumming is about. Possibly a territorial thing.

Quote from: Paulmyr on April 09, 2022, 04:29:27 PM

Quote from: Sir-diealot on April 09, 2022, 03:24:05 PM

Quote from: Hobbes on April 09, 2022, 01:11:26 AM

Quote from: Sir-diealot on April 09, 2022, 01:02:58 AM
Forgive the stupid question, I have never heard the term "lek" before, what exactly does it mean and what is it derived from? Thanks.

This is a sharptail grouse lek in Montana that I got some video of around 10 years ago.  There are probably lots of better videos out there.

https://youtu.be/kH9TzKa6fp4

Thank you much. I was out coyote hunting with dogs not quite a month ago and as I was driving down the road with a passenger with me I saw these 5 birds to my right going into the woods. One had the feathers up on its neck and the other male had it's tail feathers up like a turkey. I asked my passenger what they were because one I did not get a great look as I was driving on a snowy/icy road and for two I had never seen them before and he informed me they were grouse. Now mind you I have heard them in the woods and knew exactly what they were because of that drum beat but I had never laid eyes on one let alone 5 before. I only wish I could have stopped and taken pictures, they were kind of weird looking to me with the neck feathers up in particular as well as the tail feathers on the second one. I am guessing the others must have been hens. Was a neat sight to see.

Thank you as well Paulmyr, for some reason it would not let me quote you.

Sounds to me like you've seen some ruffed grouse. I'd hate to use the terminology exploded Lek for their mating rituals for fear of being labeled an armchair biologist.

Ruffed grouse are similar to turkey in that they pick areas throughout the forest to display, unlike shartptail/sage grouse who show up to a particular area year after year. Ruffed grouse males choose the best position through out their home range to display and attract hens. Home range may be a bad choice of words as I think the birds are fairly nomadic. The posistions include a log of some sort that he can dig his claws into and beat his wings starting from slow and moving to a climax creating the drum beat you hear in the spring.

We've had one the past few years hanging around the cabin. Sometimes when the moon is bright his drumming will continue through the night. They are persistent little buggers. He's got a few logs scattered around the perimeter of the cabin he likes to use. Curious if he'll still be around this year. I hear them drumming in most places I turkey hunt in Mn and Wis.

You can hear the drumming in the fall although not as prevalent as in the spring. I'm not sure what the fall drumming is about. Possibly a territorial thing.

I do believe that would be correct, I know we have Ruffed Grouse and Spruce Grouse here in NY

Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on April 09, 2022, 09:39:06 AM

Quote from: Hobbes on April 09, 2022, 09:14:11 AM
Armchair biology 101:
;)
The displaying part and hens selecting a male is as far as it goes.  I've never witnessed a gobbler defending territory.  He'll wallop a bird that gets near a hen but he's not marking out boundaries like a coyote or defending a ridge.  I've also never witnessed weather making him leave hens or whatever core area he typically calls home except for snow that could push birds lower in elevation.  He will however, regardless of the idea that he gobbles and calls them in, follow those hens to hell and back if they take a mind to visit.  One thing that I know keeps him in an area is those hens.  As they establish a nest, they aren't straying too far from it, so he'll remain within the area that the hens use within some distance of their nest.

Hunting pressure is more likely to move him than anything in my opinion, but even then it's likely that he's just zipped it up instead of moved on.

Again, you can call it anything you'd like. Anything that makes you happy. We all know what I'm talking about. Choose whatever term you want. Answer the question: will he leave hens and/or disregard subordinance as a result of extreme weather patterns? Temp dropped 50 degrees from two days ago, the wind is howling, and there's an inch of snow on the ground this morning. I'm at 3,500ft. It's opening day. If hens have established nesting areas and he's dead center, does he leave the hens to escape the weather?


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The essence of the questions would seem to be which is the stronger innate drive, the survival drive to escape the weather or the drive to procreate the species.  This would seem to be a time issue or duration issue would probably be more accurate. I would think if the weather has just changed the gobblers would be used to weather changes, even severe ones, so the procreation drive would stay the dominate drive whereas if it was several days or weeks in duration and the other survival factors are diminishing, such as  food, then the survival factor may become dominate. in my area we usually do not have extreme weather variations so this is strictly an opinion and is not based on any first hand observations. Certainly and interesting question. 

Quote from: NCL on April 10, 2022, 12:10:54 PM

Quote from: ChesterCopperpot on April 09, 2022, 09:39:06 AM
Again, you can call it anything you'd like. Anything that makes you happy. We all know what I'm talking about. Choose whatever term you want. Answer the question: will he leave hens and/or disregard subordinance as a result of extreme weather patterns? Temp dropped 50 degrees from two days ago, the wind is howling, and there's an inch of snow on the ground this morning. I'm at 3,500ft. It's opening day. If hens have established nesting areas and he's dead center, does he leave the hens to escape the weather?

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The essence of the questions would seem to be which is the stronger innate drive, the survival drive to escape the weather or the drive to procreate the species.  This would seem to be a time issue or duration issue would probably be more accurate. I would think if the weather has just changed the gobblers would be used to weather changes, even severe ones, so the procreation drive would stay the dominate drive whereas if it was several days or weeks in duration and the other survival factors are diminishing, such as  food, then the survival factor may become dominate. in my area we usually do not have extreme weather variations so this is strictly an opinion and is not based on any first hand observations. Certainly and interesting question.

I think you're right. And that seemed to be what I observed. They didn't move as much as I'd initially thought they might. They seemed to just hunker down and ride it out.


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Quote from: Hobbes on April 09, 2022, 03:10:46 PM
I have contributed twice on my feelings on whether a gobbler will moved based on weather.  I dislike the term because I've seen a real lek and what turkeys do is not the same behavior.  My apologies for riling you.  I'm out.

For me the terminology Exploded Lek seems like an fairly accurate depiction of what happens in the turkey woods each spring. All the Turkey's I'm aware of flock up at some point in the winter. Family groups join together as well gobblers and Jake's. As breeding season arrives these flocks disperse across the country side to locations where the mating rituals will take place.  These locations, at least in my experience, are consistent from year to year. I can return to large areas each spring and expect Gobblers to be in certain locations displaying/gobbling on a regular basis. Last season I returned to an area I had not hunted in 20 years. I found Gobblers in the exact locations I found them years before. In areas with high turkey densities the locations dominant Gobblers choose may overlap. That right there can make for some very interesting hunting as gobbler groups based around separate dominant toms squabble amongst each other.

Gobblers choose specific positions within these locations with the best positions claimed by the dominant birds. Subordinates are subjugated to the lesser positions. These positions tend to be fluid, they may change from hour to hour or day to day depending on a host of factors, weather, food sources, phase of the mating season,  and hunting pressure are but a few.

During the period before actual breeding takes place a pecking order is established between the gobblers that choose these locations for mating. That pecking order has a tendency to need reaffirmation frequently through the mating season. That pecking order is not based on the presence of hens. Toms will fight amongst themselves quite regularly to maintain the hierarchy of the pecking order throughout the mating season enabling the most dominant Tom to take up the best positions and allowing him to attract and breed with the most hens before they move off to breed with another.

In summary, In my experience, gobblers show up to the same locations year after year for mating purposes. There is 1 dominant Tom within these locations. Gobblers choose positions in these locations to display/gobble to attract hens for breeding based on a hierarchy. The most dominant Tom with the best position breeds the most hens. The hierarchy of the gobblers in the location needs affirmation on a regular basis.

Now I maybe wrong and the turkey's in your area behave differently than what I've experienced and described here but I see a strong correlation to what is taken place in the video you've provided. In the video I see male sharptail grouse gathering in a specific location (Lek) for the purpose of mating, I see the reaffirmation of a pecking order that most likely has been established since the 1st couple males showed up to the Lek allowing the most dominant male the best position. If I cared enough I might be able to watch closer and see hens there to choose mates. The only thing I see different is the Lek in your video encompasses and area of about 30yds and the positions aren't fluid ( most likely due to the size of the lek) I know from the leks around our cabin they can reach multiple acres in size.

So other than the size of the Lek, maybe you could explain to me the drastic differences between what you've experience and what I've described above.