I'm not trying to ruffle feathers or point fingers or hijack any other threads but what is your opinion on shooting hens? For some of us, we are seeing a decline in our state's turkey numbers. IMO when we take hens out of our population, where legal (fall hen harvest or bearded hens anytime spring or fall), aren't we contributing to that decline? If a hen drops 100 eggs in her lifetime and 20% make it to maturity (which is about average), we are removing 20 turkeys of our future population when we harvest a single hen. Are we any better than the predators (coyotes, raccoons etc) that ravage those hen nests? I know some will use the, "Well it's legal issue" but my question is just because it is legal does that make it Right? Just thinking outside the box and hoping ALL of us take the time to do what is BEST for this resource.
If it's legal, do as you wish. For me, I'll only shoot mature gobblers. Just a personal choice.
What you're pondering is future turkey production. What about killing that gobbler? Let's just say he breeds 5 hens a spring, by your count that's 500 eggs in the lifetime of those hens. I'm not sure how it is in your woods but I see a lot more hen's then gobblers. Last I checked hen's can't just lay egg's without a gobbler. Got to have both to make turkey's. If it's legal then go out and have fun. Bubba
Fall hunting isn't an issue. Biologists allow for 10% loss,hunting, poaching etc. IL sold 1100 fall gun permits last year. Big deal. Archery guys kill that many. IL est population 100k. I shoot what's legal, spring or fall. Better start looking at habitat and predators.
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I agree with fallhnt, habitat and predators take way more turkeys than us hunters whether it's gobblers or hens.
My preference is gobblers, but i agree do as you wish, your the one who has to live with your decisions ... IMO....
If I can help it I don't shoot hens. Hens are the future of our sport. A tom breeds every hen that sets for him, so taking a tom doesn't affect the population as much as taking a hen out. It does not take that much time to learn to distinguish between hens and toms. If it is legal it doesn't make it right. At the same time to each their own, if it is legal to take hens. But if you complain about turkey numbers being low don't cry if you shoot mature hens in the fall, point your finger at yourself. We are our own worst enemy sometimes. My :z-twocents: worth.
Yesteryear before old school was old they didn't shoot hens to keep production up as already stated. That was beat into me early so I don't. Where it's legal and does no harm I don't have a problem with it though.
There are places where turkey populations are healthy and stable. In those places, reasonable hen harvest in the fall is not going to be an issue.
There are also places where turkey populations are apparently in serious decline. Those declines are not caused by wisely-managed human hunting, but there is a tipping point wherein each remaining hen turkey could theoretically be important in the recovery of that population...if and when reproductive success occurs.
Wildlife managers are the ones that should be making the decisions on whether to harvest hens...or not. If they are competent at their jobs...and not influenced by pressures beyond proper wildlife management...they should be able to assess the status of their turkey populations and set harvest goals accordingly.
Hunters should also play a role in this, as well. Knowing your turkey populations and how they are doing...not only in the short term, but also the long term...should give each of us a clue as to whether we should be shooting our hens, even if legal by regulation. In some cases, this goes for gobbler harvest, as well, but it should be pointed out that overall, hens are much more important to turkey population recovery than are gobblers in any given population. Ideally, for a quick recovery of a struggling population, you want to have many hens, but you also have to have a few gobblers, as well. :icon_thumright:
Quote from: dejake on November 11, 2021, 07:57:19 AM
If it's legal, do as you wish. For me, I'll only shoot mature gobblers. Just a personal choice.
I agree.
Lobby your local officials and wildlife managers if you want to change things.
Never shot a hen and never wanted to. Its at the point now that I don't get too serious about killing gobblers till after peak breeding season. Thats just my personal approach to it.
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"My question is just because it is legal does that make it Right?"
Of course it is right. I think what you mean to ask, is it going to significantly lower turkey populations.
"Are we any better than the predators (coyotes, raccoons etc) that ravage those hen nests?"
Again, better is not a good choice of words. Coyotes, raccoons, etc. are just doing what they do. They eat animals. It is not a bad thing.
I shoot hens all the time, not just turkeys. If I'm out to get food, and a mallard hen comes in, you better bet she's coming down. If I'm out looking for a longbeard, then I'm looking for a longbeard. For me, it is more about the experience. In the fall, I'm not going to blast the first turkey I see on day one, unless it is a real nice tom. Skip forward to day 5, and a bunch of failed sits or stalks, and you bet Ms. Hen is getting it if that's what I get. I have yet to see evidence that the fall harvest of hens has any impact on population numbers at all.
I wouldn't make some one feel personally bad about it, but I wouldn't do it. Mainly for a lot of the points others have mentioned already.
I used to have a different opinion on this. I used to think if its legal then whatever. But my opinion on that has changed... again I'm not gonna shame people if it's legal, but there personal guidelines have changed.
I used to want a hen wing for roost calling, now... I'm okay not having one.
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You are spot on. Everyone wants to blame predators (especially coyotes) which is laughable.
Not sure what area you're from but in the Southeastern US it's the timber harvest that by FAR contributes more to the decline (and will continue to)
than any predator or anything else.
Shooting hens certainly won't help anything especially in areas that are experiencing noticeable declines.
Disease too, Restocking efforts never provided much diversity in the gene pool.
Predators? That's mostly just hunters looking for an easy target to blame. They love to throw that out when the state tries to manage the steep declines by Heaven Forbid reducing one of THEIR Ha Ha turkey tags... How dare they try to help the turkeys by reducing bag limits when we all know the only real threat is coyotes. Laughable, give me a break, Wake up and face Reality.
There are do many different dynamics involved in sustaining a population of wildlife. No. 1 and foremost, if you have excellent habit (producing food, water and shelter) then animals will thrive. Some influences on this dynamic is disease and human intrusion, included is hunting. One principle that has existed since human harvest has begun is that females are sacred during the reproductive period. Even the Bible addresses this:
Deuteronomy 22:6
English Standard Version
6 "If you come across a bird's nest in any tree or on the ground, with young ones or eggs and the mother sitting on the young or on the eggs, you shall not take the mother with the young.
However, the rest of the year she is just another part of the total flock. Outside of over harvest, the legal killing of hens will not cause the failure of a population. Sure if you over hunt a specific flock and take too many hens you'll cause problems, but this is extremely rare.
Like Gobblenut said, populations in serious decline should be looked at differently. States have a tendency to look at regions and state wide trends and often ignore local situations. This has always frustrated me.
Here is my feelings - As an over all management position, harvesting of surplus hens in a healthy flock with good habitat is sound management and harmless.
Looking back at hunting and historical management techniques will show you that species with dimorphic differences in the species had hens protected, but less definable species did not. An example of this is ringneck pheasant and bobwhite quail. Pheasants traditionally had hens protected, but quail did not. Both done quite well together in the same habitat, it made no difference that hens were shot in one and protected in the other. What did matter is a huge degradation of habitat and the use of farm chemicals. Then came a catastrophic weather event and boom, they suffered a huge drop. Hunting never done this, habitat decline did.
I am in the camp that if a species is in serious decline you first look at environmental issues and then hunting. If you are looking at a serious decline then all harvest should be stopped. The impact becomes exponential at some point. Yet, sate wildlife agencies are very reluctant to do that for social, economic and political reasons. So we often see a species hunted right to the edge of threatened existence. In the end it doesn't matter if the root cause isn't addressed. First biologist must identify the problem, but they often knee jerk with new regulations that give them social credence. A prime example is the American Bald eagle. They almost disappeared in the lower 48, but once the problem was discovered (DDT) and stopped, it only became a matter of helping spread the breeders around and protect them. Today they are thriving again. Mother nature takes care of her own if we don't cause major problems. Shooting of a few hens is not the problem with turkey declines, but stopping it may well be a useful strategy in places where needed.
I'm a firm believer that killing a hen is killing the future and do not take them.
GOOD feedback Guys! As I stated, I'm not trying to ruffle feathers but wanted to get some others' opinions on this subject. As I get older, my perspective about hunting and resources has definitely changed. Twenty years ago, my perspective was if the state says it's legal, have at it. Most biologist will tell you if you want to increase populations, you don't target the female of species and if you want to decrease or maintain the population you target the females. In eastern NC, where I'm from, we are seeing more and more turkeys where 10 years ago we didn't have any sightings before (only spring season / 2 bearded birds per). Our doe deer population is booming so the wildlife commission has changed our tags from 4 buck tags and 2 doe tags to 2 buck tags and 4 doe tags. I can definitely say the buck antler size has increased over the past several years and sightings are up but can't tell about the doe population since it takes longer to change a mindset of not killing does of us old farts. With only 2 buck tags, it definitely makes you take a second look at a deer to see if he is mature before pulling that trigger knowing you only have 2 tags for a 2 1/2 month long gun season. Great opinions, keep them coming!
My opinion is that hens should not be shot ever.
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I have never hunted turkeys in the fall, we don't have a fall season here. I see a lot of fall hunt pics where they hunter takes gobblers. I think that's generally best, and if I had populations concerns about my hunting area I would definitely go that route. If a fall hen is legal and you want one, go for it.
Quote from: Sir-diealot on November 12, 2021, 06:06:23 AM
I'm a firm believer that killing a hen is killing the future and do not take them.
I heard you don't take gobblers either ;D
Quote from: EZ on November 12, 2021, 08:23:55 PM
Quote from: Sir-diealot on November 12, 2021, 06:06:23 AM
I'm a firm believer that killing a hen is killing the future and do not take them.
I heard you don't take gobblers either ;D
I leave the Republican ones to vote.
As a personal rule I don't intentionally shoot hens. I live in a part of the country where the turkey population is thriving so there's no need or temptation for me. Plus, I've been turkey hunting for long enough that my enjoyment of this glorious activity is not kill based. I know many of you reading this agree with me on this point.
However, I don't blame someone who hunts very long and hard and legally shoots a hen. Being successful in some areas can be very difficult. Younger hunters in particular need to realize some form of success in order to develop and maintain interest in turkey hunting. They haven't had the level of success that many of us have.
If you don't want hens shot for conservation reasons make it illegal. I don't think its smart to try to impose a guilt-based form of self policing. It sends young people mixed messages.
Is it even possible to shoot down a corn filled trench with out hitting a hen or 2
here is an example - Yesterday I took a friend fall hunting and he specifically stated he preferred killing a gobbler. I have hunted this area for years and this fall (I took a fall gobbler this year) and I have a reasonable idea of how many birds are using the area. We got into the hen and poult flock and we counted 34 birds, from what we could tell all of them were hens and Jennys. Young of year jakes have usually seperated from the flock by now. I have accounted for one group of 6-8 YOY Jakes and about 10 mature gobblers in this area. My friend decided he would take a hen, but alas he missed the shot. I have one other friend that will hunt this spot with me and he is willing to take a hen.
Considering the above information, whch is more detrimental to this flock; killing another gobbler or taking out one hen of a flock of 34 ? I doubt either would matter. Say my friend today killed a hen and my other friend kills one, would reducing this hen flock by two really create a decline in this flock? I habe watched this area for 50 years and the flock for the last 30+ has held pretty steady at a 50 bird carring capacity. We have harvested both gobblers and hens from it and I have never seen the numbers change much at all. Again, if the food and habitat is there the birds are there, barring any catostrophic events. Now if someone started really dogging these birds they may hurt them some, but turkeys are pretty good at surviving.
I appreciate the concern for our turkeys and I am not trying to pooh pooh anyone or be inconsiderate to anyones philosophy. I am only saying I think the science supports hharvesting of a few hens is sound management.
I personally target gobblers in the fall, but I have shot hens and probably will again.
The way I look at it, the state game agencies set seasons and bag limits with ALL factors in mind. They are the professionals and you'll be reminded of that if you ever have any "suggestions" for them.
I say, shoot what ya want if it's legal. For me, rather than worry what sex of turkey I shoot, I buy a "Fur-taker's License" and trap and shoot as many predators and nest raiders as I possibly can.
Quote from: EZ on November 13, 2021, 06:15:00 AM
The way I look at it, the state game agencies set seasons and bag limits with ALL factors in mind. They are the professionals and you'll be reminded of that if you ever have any "suggestions" for them.
I say, shoot what ya want if it's legal. For me, rather than worry what sex of turkey I shoot, I buy a "Fur-taker's License" and trap and shoot as many predators and nest raiders as I possibly can.
I like your thinking on this. LOL, As a former agency professional I apologize for some of my old and current co-workers attitudes. Some were certainly self absorbed and thought too highly of themselves. Many of us did realize we were only servants to the sportsmen and women of our state. It goes both ways though, I have been called every form of human being you can think of by the public and I have heard suggestions that were equally as ludicrous. Yet for the most part sportsmen for the most part were supportive and often had very good input. I never turned any visitors from our facility and we regularly engaged the public. Just FYI, I was in fisheries ( I managed a fish Hatchery) not game mngt., but we often helped the game guys.
Quote from: EZ on November 13, 2021, 06:15:00 AM
...the state game agencies set seasons and bag limits with ALL factors in mind. They are the professionals and you'll be reminded of that if you ever have any "suggestions" for them.
...Getting off topic a bit here, but this statement is worth further consideration...
It is a very true statement, and it says much about wildlife management across the country for most species. There are too many factors influencing the decision making processes that are contrary to what is best for the resource being managed. Those "professionals" are too often constrained by those "human" elements of money, politics, and emotion. Even if they wanted to consider those "suggestions" made from folks outside the agency (which some do and some don't), their perspective has been clouded, as well as jaded, by having to deal with those human elements day after day. Having dealt with it for about 50 years now, I can tell you there is plenty of frustration on both sides of the coin. >:( :(
Some Southren States that do not allow Fall Hunting STILL have a declining Turkey Population.
Perhaps too many Gobblers are being Killed .
Quote from: Sir-diealot on November 12, 2021, 06:06:23 AM
I'm a firm believer that killing a hen is killing the future and do not take them.
Same here.
Its not like we have an over abundance of turkeys.
I recall seeing a thread recently about a fellow who shot a fall hen. He was actually proud of it and was apparently seeking praise for the "achievement."
It's legal to do so so go for it, but oh my God I would be entirely embarrassed to admit that I shot a hen. It's just too easy. And it does not help the turkey population at all.
Just my opinion.
Quote from: Magdump on November 15, 2021, 06:52:20 AM
Quote from: Sir-diealot on November 12, 2021, 06:06:23 AM
I'm a firm believer that killing a hen is killing the future and do not take them.
Same here.
Its not like we have an over abundance of turkeys.
I recall seeing a thread recently about a fellow who shot a fall hen. He was actually proud of it and was apparently seeking praise for the "achievement."
It's legal to do so so go for it, but oh my God I would be entirely embarrassed to admit that I shot a hen. It's just too easy. And it does not help the turkey population at all.
Just my opinion.
Things that make you go Hmmmm
The first question that popped in my head was, how much fall turkey hunting have you done? I have had some very fun days exchanging calls with hens. I have not seen the, "it's way to easy to kill them". Like you said, it's just an opinion. If the guy was pround of his hen, I would not pee on his parade. You can easily spend hours working to call in a hen flock. I personally target fall gobblers, but I have and probably will shoot hens again. Killing gobblers also reduces the flock, that is why my state just reduced our spring limit to one gobbler and left the fall season alone. Of course I think that is bunk, but that was their reasoning, killing too many gobblers
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and please don't be offended by me sharing mine, it's all part of an open discussion meant to inspire thought.
Good discussion. We have had it before, but it is worth rehashing occasionally so folks understand all the dynamics involved and can make their own decisions about shooting hens wherever they hunt. The bottom line on that decision comes down to understanding the current status and health of the turkey population you are hunting. Again, in healthy populations where population recruitment (young turkeys surviving to adulthood) is stable, taking a reasonable number of hens through fall hunting will not impact that population.
Personally, I would recommend that IF you are hunting hens in the fall season, follow this one guideline. Most fall flocks will be divided into two basic groups of birds. Those are mature gobbler groupings, and hen groupings that consist of mature hens and their young-of-the-year. In those hen flocks, there will be a discernable size difference between those adult hens and the young birds. My guideline: shoot the young-of-the-year birds and leave the adult hens.
My reason/rationale: Those adult hens with young have demonstrated the ability to pull off a successful hatch. That may be a result of random good fortune...or perhaps it is the result of some nesting and/or survival tactics that have made those hens more likely to be successful in raising a clutch of young. Either way, leaving those adult hens in the woods and continuing to give them a chance to breed in the future is the best choice to make.
For a lot of folks, there is a tendency to think "bigger is better" and they pick out a large turkey out of a flock to shoot. In my opinion, when shooting a bird out of a fall hen flock, that is not the right choice to make when trying to insure your turkey flock has its best chance to thrive in the future. If you want a turkey in the fall and have the option, shoot yourself a young bird....and leave those adult hens! :icon_thumright:
Gobblenut, it is uncanny how many things in our philosophies align.
For me it is an absolute sin to kill the boss/brood hen in a flock. If I am shooting a non gobbler I am looking over a flock for a young male or a subordinate hen. If you've fall hunted much it's pretty easy to pick out the brood hens. The one purring and loud course yelping is her. Pass her up she is the one that keeps the whole flock safe. All the other mature hens will be, like you stated, bigger and more vocal. I like to say it like this, kill the chirppers....fall hunters know what I mean. Smaller yearling hens that have been barren will be mixed in and they are usually just a bit bigger than YOY and not vocal. I would shoot one of them as well. However, in a healthy flock one less hen is not going to be a population crusher, heck a coyote might pick off the boss hen tomorrow, but probably not. I probably put way more analysis into my fall hunting than I ever do spring. In the spring if it comes and has a long beard, it dies. Sometimes even a short beard dies.
In this area the turkey are in very serious trouble, there are people here that wipe out every woods and every hedgerow in site. There are not many turkey seen anymore. I saw some turkey this week, young jake group of about 12, first turkey I have seen since last Spring hunting season that I can remember. (saw five the final day of the season) In this area killing a hen is killing the future, we can't afford to lose them here, we need them for breeding. We also need to get people to start thinking of the future generations, they will have nothing here in just a few short years.
good point sir-diealot, there are areas that are of concern and those factors should be part of the rational. My stance on that is, don't kill any fall birds in a problem area. The state agency is incumbent to regulate this, if they aren't they're in error. I will add, that I have shared my thoughts in support of fall hunting, but I do concede that every area is different and should be considered individually. My comments are all made with the assumption of a healthy flock. It's fair to say if your state agency allows it legally then they feel the flock is healthy enough to sustain it. Of course we can all site instances where they have been derelict. Each individual must make their own decision for there hunting ground.
In my state, VA, the fall kill at one time was over 10,000 birds. In the mid-90's our DGIF made changes to remove the overlap with the general firearms deer season with the theory being we would see a large population increase. That didn't happen but exponentially the fall kill dropped dramatically since the thought was that a large portion of these turkeys killed were by deer hunters who had not seen a deer but a gang of turkeys came by and since they were a legal target they were shot. The real fact was that deer hunting was becoming more accessible and popular as deer populations increased and outdoor tv was gaining ground, i.e. Bill Jordan and Realtree Outdoors. Now our average fall kill is between 2,000-2900 birds and we have since adjusted the seasons to remove the overlap with the early muzzleloader season and expanded fall hunting opportunities into January. The truth is there just aren't that many fall turkey hunters anymore in my state where fall turkey hunting has a long, rich tradition especially with dogs (John Byrne, for those that know the name). Spring is King anymore. So IMO killing a hen in the fall has minimal impact as our hen population is quite plentiful in my part of the state and as long as it's legal in between deer hunts I'll grab my shotgun and try to call a bird in. A fall flock on the roost in the morning is a symphony to me.
Fools shoot hens.
But foolishness seems to be abundant just about everywhere these days.
Quote from: Magdump on November 15, 2021, 06:52:20 AM
Quote from: Sir-diealot on November 12, 2021, 06:06:23 AM
I'm a firm believer that killing a hen is killing the future and do not take them.
Same here.
Its not like we have an over abundance of turkeys.
I recall seeing a thread recently about a fellow who shot a fall hen. He was actually proud of it and was apparently seeking praise for the "achievement."
It's legal to do so so go for it, but oh my God I would be entirely embarrassed to admit that I shot a hen. It's just too easy. And it does not help the turkey population at all.
Just my opinion.
If hunting hens is that easy, then you do in fact have an over abundance of turkeys. It's never easy. Don't you dare shame another hunter for being proud of what they have done legally. Your opinion on the effects of killing hens, is your opinion, nothing wrong with it. You saying someone should be embarrassed because they are proud of killing a fall hen turkey is absolutely despicable. I've lost all respect for your opinion.
I agree scattergun, but maybe not as harshly. I hope I never get caught up so emotionally that I would shame someone for a legal harvest. It's wrong and inconsiderate. He has every right to be proud of his hen, he worked hard for it and obeyed the laws. Ethics are not regulated by governments, they are acted on by individuals and are developed by each person's own perspective and thus tenuous. I have watched ethical discussions derail so often it is actually annoying. We will always make our own choices. The best standard we can apply to others is not to judge them on our own feelings, but by what is actually legal, beyond that is an individual choice.
If you read through this thread you know I support fall hunting and yes hen harvest in a healthy flock and as is legal. I use science and biology to determine my position and so does the agencies that regulate harvest. Most of the opposition I see is heavily weighted by feelings and very little science, including the judgmental statements.
In certain areas of New York- the Turkey Population has roared back with a Tremendous amount of Hen Turkeys now.
See back in 2015- the DEC cut the Fall Turkey Season from 6 weeks to just 2 weeks. In addition the Bag Limit was lowered by 50% to 1 Fall Turkey. And in addition the DEC Moved the Fall Turkey Opener way back from the former October 1st opener with everything else like Pheasant and Squirrel, etc. Moved the Season all the way back to- " this year"- October 16th.
So 2021 was the 7th year for the Turkeys to come back in Population and in "alot" of areas in New York- this is what has happened.
Now when,I shot that Fall Hen in late October, I had a good 8 or so Hens in front of me after Flydown. The Jakes were Roosted back a good 70 yards. Perhaps 3 of them.
Since there was so many Hens in front of me,I took one and was happy as Hell for the experience!
1st Fall Turkey,I took in New York since 2014 because of the 3 way change,I wrote about above.
Not many Fall Turkey Hunters now. Probably some are taken by Bored Bow Deer Hunters from their Treestands.
Obviously many Spring Hunters and Newer Hunters that have not taken many Spring Gobblers in States that have never allowed Fall Turkey Hunting would be in opposition .
The Roots of Turkey Hunting Lie in the Fall. I do understand that alot of Turkey Hunters do not realize that. The Book- The American Wild Turkey that some consider the best Book on Turkey Hunting should be read . Unfortunately- even the reprints cost $100.
Bottom Line- enjoy yourselves out there and dont put any stock into what your fellow Turkey Hunters think you should do.
good post quaver. I remember how many states handled fall seasons in the past. My first fall hunt was in the mid 70s in West Va. and the attitude by locals was shoot as many as possible out of a flock. Things have really changed and the changes NY made are because they started using science instead of tradition and feelings for management. Sure the fall harvest should be regulated, I don't think anyone disagrees. Here in Ohio the fall kill is typically around <10% of the spring gobbler harvest. Most years the total state wide fall harvest is around 1,000 birds. (https://ohiodnr.gov/static/documents/wildlife/wildlife-management/2020+Fall+Turkey+Season+Results+-+Final.pdf) Out of an estimated flock of ~250,000, that's insignificant. The kill in my county many years is less than 15. One year the total fall harvest for my county was around 8-10 and my buddys and I could account for 5 of them. Yeah, I don't think we're killing off the whole population.
Here's a just out article on what is happening now. https://www.outdoornews.com/2021/11/10/ohio-fall-turkey-harvest-falls-on-hard-times/
It's sad that in today's world that perception is becoming law and over-riding facts. The above article demonstrates this. The recent change in Ohio's turkey regulations is not science driven but socially driven. I fear because of the banter, like we are seeing in this thread, will eventually get our fall season closed, with no science to support it. Be careful what you wish for guys. Soon as they start bowing to social feelings the next change may be in your wheelhouse. How, about we should stop bow hunting becasue too many deer are lost to crippling....yeah far out, but all it will take is for someone to do a study and say it and the social media nob will pounce. Let the agencies do the science
I agree Eggshell, but I think the harshness is completely necessary. What he said is fighting words. A person doesn't start running their mouth like that, and expect good things to happen. Bullies are as bad a poachers.
Quote from: Magdump on November 15, 2021, 06:52:20 AM
Quote from: Sir-diealot on November 12, 2021, 06:06:23 AM
I'm a firm believer that killing a hen is killing the future and do not take them.
Same here.
Its not like we have an over abundance of turkeys.
I recall seeing a thread recently about a fellow who shot a fall hen. He was actually proud of it and was apparently seeking praise for the "achievement."
It's legal to do so so go for it, but oh my God I would be entirely embarrassed to admit that I shot a hen. It's just too easy. And it does not help the turkey population at all.
Just my opinion.
LOL. Many believed spring hunting was too easy just a few generations ago, what was so sporting about sitting down to a gobbling turkey they scoffed.
Now the fall hunt is too easy.
:z-dizzy:
Quote from: paboxcall on November 18, 2021, 04:06:18 PM
Quote from: Magdump on November 15, 2021, 06:52:20 AM
Quote from: Sir-diealot on November 12, 2021, 06:06:23 AM
I'm a firm believer that killing a hen is killing the future and do not take them.
Same here.
Its not like we have an over abundance of turkeys.
I recall seeing a thread recently about a fellow who shot a fall hen. He was actually proud of it and was apparently seeking praise for the "achievement."
It's legal to do so so go for it, but oh my God I would be entirely embarrassed to admit that I shot a hen. It's just too easy. And it does not help the turkey population at all.
Just my opinion.
LOL. Many believed spring hunting was too easy just a few generations ago, what was so sporting about sitting down to a gobbling turkey they scoffed.
Now the fall hunt is too easy.
:z-dizzy:
nothing easy about digging a bunch of trenches
Approaching this debate from a different angle, how many of you live in states that actually have required reporting on turkey harvest, whether fall of spring? Is your state keeping an accurate record on turkey harvest and associated sex-of-kill through mandatory harvest reporting?
Here in New Mexico, hunters are required to fill out a harvest report for both spring and fall hunting. I believe the fall survey also asks for the sex of the turkey harvested (I don't know for sure because I haven't fall hunted since the hunt survey requirement was established). If an individual buys a license and then does not file the harvest report by an established date, they cannot buy a license the following year.
In my opinion, this is a good system that should be implemented in all states. Of course, those filling out the survey are basically on the honor system in terms of accurately reporting their harvest, but this system is way better than having no mandatory reporting system in place at all.
...Just curious....
What states don't have harvest reporting? I'd really be surprised if more than 5, maybe 10 states don't require harvest reporting. Every state differs on tagging, and accepted reporting, but every one I know of treats turkeys like big game. You shoot a turkey, you attach a tag, and you report the harvest. So far I've only killed turkeys in Minnesota. Their reporting has you stating the day, morning or evening, what area it was killed in, then either adult tom, hen, or juvenile jake. Finally, they even note what you used, either archery, shotgun, or muzzleloading shotgun. They may even ask for crossbow, cant remember. It used to be kind of inconvenient, but ever since they came out with phone reporting, it's been a no brainer. The last time I tried to report an animal in person, a bear, the people at the gas station didn't even know what I was asking about. They didn't even have the tooth samples they should have.
sometimes i get kind of bored with this site and wonder why i keep checking in
then i read posts like quavers59 and eggshell just posted and i remember that this is a really great place
Quote from: eggshell on November 18, 2021, 07:18:21 AM
I agree scattergun, but maybe not as harshly. I hope I never get caught up so emotionally that I would shame someone for a legal harvest. It's wrong and inconsiderate. He has every right to be proud of his hen, he worked hard for it and obeyed the laws. Ethics are not regulated by governments, they are acted on by individuals and are developed by each person's own perspective and thus tenuous. I have watched ethical discussions derail so often it is actually annoying. We will always make our own choices. The best standard we can apply to others is not to judge them on our own feelings, but by what is actually legal, beyond that is an individual choice.
If you read through this thread you know I support fall hunting and yes hen harvest in a healthy flock and as is legal. I use science and biology to determine my position and so does the agencies that regulate harvest. Most of the opposition I see is heavily weighted by feelings and very little science, including the judgmental statements.
I do not feel it is wise it shame anyone, I have never liked that, I do feel if I believe I see a problem in the area I am in that I should say something and in my area killing a hen is destroying the future, we just don't have many strong flocks left in my area anymore.
That said I have seen people shame people for taking deer that did not meet their feelings of how big it should be (Buck obviously) I am a believe it taking meat, I could care less how big an antler is. Would I take a giant if it came out in front of me? Most likely so yes, but if the area were in trouble I may very well pass it, something I have chose to do in the past, not only for the reason stated but because sometimes I have gone out hunting feeling fine and by the end of the day I am just hurting way to much to take a deer, clean it, drag it (When I still could) and so on. At that point I am staying to help others by not disturbing the deer they are hunting and I am pulling my camera out and trying to shoot them that way.
Yes if it is legal you are fine to take it, but is it wise to, that is what is important in my mind. I want my nephews and my friends kids to have the same opportunities I did, so I do what I believe will help them to have critters of whatever species left in the future. We coyote and fox hunt as well as trap, we do not believe in wiping out every single one of them, we want to hunt them again next year and for future generations to have that chance as well. We do our best to manage them.
I love my science, I make my judgments based on science and how I understand it, if I am shown that I am wrong then I adapt, I think any hunter or outdoors person worth a hill of beans does the same, not only in hunting but in life. We can't be selfish, we owe it to our future generations to leave them something behind.
@GobbleNut We have to report both Spring and Fall, In the Spring we just have to fill out a report and send it in or do it by phone. For fall it reads this way.
"Fall Turkey
Please save a leg from your turkey. You may be asked to submit a turkey leg for DEC to age and sex the turkey. Instructions will be provided."
I turkey hunt in the spring to interact with gobbling toms. I have had some cool encounters with busted up hen flocks in the fall with tons of calling.
To me a hen or even a jake is just not the same as a Tom.
So few hens are taken in the fall most places I doubt it is an issue!
Quote from: Dtrkyman on November 25, 2021, 02:59:59 PM
I turkey hunt in the spring to interact with gobbling toms. I have had some cool encounters with busted up hen flocks in the fall with tons of calling.
To me a hen or even a jake is just not the same as a Tom.
So few hens are taken in the fall most places I doubt it is an issue!
Fall gobblers (long beards ) will make you curse and drive you insane. I have had some pretty good encounters with them, gobbling strutting and all, but most are a lot of leg work and woodsmanship. However, I will admit there is something magic about the spring and that thunderous gobble. Then seeing that big ole fan coming towards you. Now just imagine how would you hunt that old longbeard if you couldn't hear him gobble from a 1/2 mile away ......hmmmm, yeah that's fall gobbler hunting. It has it's magic too. I like the challenge of both.
Eggshell, I have killed a few in the fall while bow hunting deer, some gobbling occasionally and plenty of fights, I still prefer the spring and have lot's of things to chase in the fall.
There are enough days in the spring when they don't gobble!!!
Quote from: Dtrkyman on November 27, 2021, 10:14:06 AM
Eggshell, I have killed a few in the fall while bow hunting deer, some gobbling occasionally and plenty of fights, I still prefer the spring and have lot's of things to chase in the fall.
There are enough days in the spring when they don't gobble!!!
Yeah, there's a lot of hunters just like you and not a think wrong with that approach. I do not deer hunt or trap anymore. so a few doves, maybe a pheasant hunt are the only other things I hunt beside turkeys, and those are only 2-3 trips a fall. I am pretty much solely a turkey hunter. So I play that game to it's fullest.
When I was young I lived in a different area than now, we had turkeys. The men then that lived there turkey hunted, hard, spring and of course fall. Fall hunting was a big affair. Spring hunting was done solo, or with a very close friend or relative. Fall hunting was a little different, it was done with a group of people sometimes, sometimes just the same as the spring. Really depended on the individuals involved, where and when the hunt took place as well was a factor. They still have plenty of turkeys there, I still do hunt there regularly.
Today where I live there are turkeys, plenty of them. But today, there are very few fall turkey hunters in this area. Only occasionally do I fall hunt. I do squirrel hunt a good bit, waiting on the orange army to leave the woods alone now so I can resume. Where I am at now far more fall turkeys are killed by squirrel hunters, bow hunters, and deer hunters than fall turkey hunters. Way more. Don't fool yourself, this is not fall turkey hunting. Yea, if you call this fall hunting it could be seen as easy. But, this is not fall turkey hunting! This is opportunity killing, not fall turkey hunting.
I do not understand why people feel so against the fall hunt... possible they don't see outside of their immediate area? IDK. There are many places in the US that probably can not support a fall harvest, or a significant harvest. But too shame a hunter that takes a legal turkey by legal methods, that shouldn't happen. In know way. They should be proud of their accomplishment, just as any hunter should be while participating in their chosen sport and has success.
I think we should let the Biologist set the take regulations. Yes, as stated, their are many out side influences to that as well. We will always have those wrong intentions getting in the way of sound management. But, we hunters must not derail the Biologists ourselves.
I went out on a fall hunt 35 years ago with three other turkey hunters. Today, looking back, I am elated that I was allowed/asked to participate in this hunt at all. Two of these guys were the real deal turkey killers, spring or fall. The other was son to one of the hunters. Before the hunt, I remember all of us calling in one of the guys dinning room before we left to go hunt that morning. The day was foggy, with drizzling rain. We all split up to hunt a place that usually held turkeys, trying to find the flock to bust it up. I jumped a single turkey off the roost at around 10AM. Somehow, I swung on that Jennie and knocked her down. I was proud of that, I still am. That was the only turkey seen that day, weather, I am sure had a lot to do with the hunt. Two of those men are dead today, and have been for some time. Those men were happy that we got a turkey that day, and it wouldn't have mattered if it were a hen, jake, or gobbler.
To me its kind of like Sunday hunting. If you don't like it, don't participate. We are all big boys and girls, and should be able to make the decision for ourselves and not have to push our personal agenda on everyone else.
^^^
Good post
I completely agree WV Flopper. We just paid a big price here in Ohio over, what I think was, misguided emmotions and not science. Ohio just cut our spring tags to one bearded bird. They sighted lower reproduction then turned around and said we had a better than average recruitment year. What I think really happened was they caved to public opinion. They have sent out hunter surveys the last few years and they asked the question, should the bag limit be reduced. I have asked a lot of guys how they responded to that question and a lot answered yes. The state influenced this when they put out public service notices that the kill had dropped the last few years. That drop was partly due to less tags being sold and less hunter hrs. Still the harvest change was statistically insignificant. What was true is there has been a lot of public discussion on social media, forums and such about falling populations in many southern states and a study on the effects of spring hunting dates. Another fact is a very high percentage (60%+) of spring hunters never kill a second bird, many don't even buy a second tag. Yet they vote to take a tag away from those that do thinking it will mean more for them to hunt for their one or they say hey I don't care I usually only kill one anyway.
These same discussion points are what fuel all the anti-fall sentiments. Fall hunting has a much deeper tradition then spring hunting. Yet our flocks done very well and expanded right through fall seasons. I said it before and say it again, "don't shame someone over an emmotionally driven opinion". If you have good science based data for your area then that is another thing, but even though I know wildlife agencies often cave to public opinion, they generally do an outstanding job protecting and providing for the resource. If they thought stopping fall hunting or hen shooting would recover the flock they'd do it in a heart beat, but the science doesn't indicate that in most areas.
I also agree, on most fall birds are opportunity kills, not hunted. I really don't have a problem with that. If a guy gets a bonus while sitting in a stand, good for him/her.
Good thread. I love fall hunting as much as spring hunting and have killed hens in the past which is legal here. I think the biologists do the best they can to set seasons and limits but overall it's up to hunters to be good conservationists and make the determination for themselves if the population they are hunting can or should sustain a hen harvest or Amy harvest for that matter. For instance one property I bow hunt has taken a real hit in the past few years and there's no way I'd consider killing a hen off there. On the other hand a property I hunt an hour away is loaded with birds. I counted 57 in several separate flocks in one day about a week ago. I wouldn't loose sleep about taking a legal hen there. We're all the same team here so if it's legal and you think your population can sustain it I say congrats.