There has been a lot of talk and interest in the TSS arena. We all know how efficient it can be in the modern day turkey loads. I am wondering why certain states are still sticking to their "No shot size smaller than 7.5" regulation? You would think these Fish & Game Departments in the various states would communicate and share their findings regarding the efficiency of the smaller TSS. I would think at the very least they should allow Duplex TSS loads that have at least one of the legal/approved sizes in the shell. Any thoughts?
I believe the hunters in those states must petition their respective Natural Resources Departments for change, if change is desired. If enough voices are heard, it will happen.
Agree. Change is always difficult it seems. Remember when the experts said for wild turkeys to thrive, they needed 5,000 unbroken acres of habitat. The wheels of change grind slowly, but eventually all states will see that TSS even in 9.5 and 10 is a very lethal option. How is bow hunting legal if small size TSS is not out of a sub gauge shotgun in some states?
Put another way, does there need to be a minimum shot size? Number 8 lead will do just fine on turkeys if you're close enough.
Great thoughts
Vermont was always no shot size less than 8 for turkey hunting. The new rules for 2021 doesn't state it anymore. I contacted VT F&W about the change and found that 9 shot is legal. The change was made because of the TSS shot available for the 410.
I have a Benelli M2 20 gauge on order from my local gun dealer (2 months). I initially bought some Fed HW TSS 3" #7 shot because I didn't know the rules changed. Then got some Fed HW TSS 3" #9. Read here that the M2 might not cycle the 3" Federal TSS ammo. Then got Apex 2 3/4" TSS #9 and TSS Shot 3" #9.
Hoping the M2 arrives in time to pattern before May. Already got a Sumtoy 562 choke and mount for a Burris FF3.
The problem in Iowa is that many of the laws that govern hunting are made by politicians rather than people trained in what's actually best for wildlife. It took many years to get a dove season. I remember our governor asking a school girl if we should have an open season on doves. This year a politician decided not to have a special teal season. I'm afraid we are not going to be able to use #9 tss for quite a while.
I assume many of those states either have staff that hunts and gives input or maybe a local NWTF chapter has contact with DNR/G&F or a strong hunting community.
Now that companies are producing these shells they may be involved as well.
Quote from: 2eagles on March 13, 2021, 08:14:40 AM
The problem in Iowa is that many of the laws that govern hunting are made by politicians rather than people trained in what's actually best for wildlife. It took many years to get a dove season. I remember our governor asking a school girl if we should have an open season on doves. This year a politician decided not to have a special teal season. I'm afraid we are not going to be able to use #9 tss for quite a while.
"We're from the gov'mint, and here to help."
.....run!
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Quote from: 2eagles on March 13, 2021, 08:14:40 AM
The problem in Iowa is that many of the laws that govern hunting are made by politicians rather than people trained in what's actually best for wildlife.
This is it in a nutshell, but it is a bit more complicated than that. "The Problem" is also complicated by the fact that TSS is still new enough to be a relative unknown for everybody except knowledgeable turkey hunters. Even wildlife professionals,...many of whom are not turkey hunters,...still have in their minds that very small shot is not adequate to kill a large bird.
That mind-set, which is a result of decades of people shooting lead shot at turkeys, has not been altered because too many folks don't understand such things as mass, density, ballistics, down-range-energy, and the like,...and how TSS has changed the game.
Throw in those "politicians" that get appointed to Game Commissions with little or no knowledge of wildlife management except what their hunter/politician buddies tell them, and you end up with antiquated laws, rules, and regulations that have absolutely no basis in fact, common sense, or reason.
All makes sense.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_GrUYGu8dA
Iowa has this Physco!
Seems like TSS has been a hard sell from the beginning. First hunters were agianst it as unsafe and dangerous. Manufactures delayed loading it for years so is it any wonder that the game departments in some areas are slow to take it up or accept supper small shot sizes. As some stated change comes slowly. :anim_25:
Same reason some states allow .410
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Quote from: Spurs Up on March 13, 2021, 07:35:11 AM
Put another way, does there need to be a minimum shot size? Number 8 lead will do just fine on turkeys if you're close enough.
I also believe that is some of the problem. New hunters thinking "If it's ok to use 8 shot TSS & kill at 50 yards, I can do the same with 8 shot lead and it's much cheaper." People not being informed or not knowing any better.
Great points here.
Quote from: captpete on March 14, 2021, 07:57:54 AM
Quote from: Spurs Up on March 13, 2021, 07:35:11 AM
Put another way, does there need to be a minimum shot size? Number 8 lead will do just fine on turkeys if you're close enough.
I also believe that is some of the problem. New hunters thinking "If it's ok to use 8 shot TSS & kill at 50 yards, I can do the same with 8 shot lead and it's much cheaper." People not being informed or not knowing any better.
A shot size restriction won't fix stupid.
A friend of mine, his wife is a biologist here in Indiana and she told me years ago the reason we have a 7.5 shot limit was safety. Less pellets to dig out of someone if there was a worse case scenario hunting accident. They are voting today in Indy to start allowing .410's and #9 tss shot
Quote from: bigbird on March 15, 2021, 12:08:06 PM
A friend of mine, his wife is a biologist here in Indiana and she told me years ago the reason we have a 7.5 shot limit was safety. Less pellets to dig out of someone if there was a worse case scenario hunting accident. They are voting today in Indy to start allowing .410's and #9 tss shot
With bigger shot, they can just bury the victim with the shot in them.
It is definitely an issue that needs to be resolved by people that actually have some knowledge. Maine made a good call...they have stated in their regs what lead sizes are legal, and what TSS sizes are legal. A decision all states should consider...different legal sizes of shot depending on the type of shot.
I think it's as much that the people who make these decisions are government employees.
It's been my experience that any time you get involved with government, you get inferior service and, more times than not, encounter little tyrants.
I know here in N.J., it takes two years minimum to introduce changes to game code. If you try to push, you get rising resistance in multiples.
In the corporate world, those people would be looking for work. BUT, not how it works in government.
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The question should be, Why do some States allow Hi powered rifles for turkey hunting? Discussing lead vs TSS sizes is ridiculous, if they use Safety as their base. My 2 cents!
Well, I cannot prove this, but it is my impression that pro-hunting states are far more likley to change regulations to benefit hunters, and that other states are more likely to adopt regulations that supplicate public opinion (of non-hunters).
However, even California still looks at the bottom line finanically. Tremendous decrease in some of our deer herds, and even though we had huge fires and decreases in hunters success, there were no decreases in tag numbers for any areas...