In some areas I hunt the gobbling is much better earlier in the season than later in the season. In one area I hunt I haven't had a bird gobble even though I've seen lone gobblers and lone hens and have called in hens. I've noticed lots of droppings and some tracks in the area and killed a bird recently by stalking. This gobbler was feeding with another gobbler and three hens and wouldn't respond to any calling. Let's hear what your opinions are on the situation! :help:
The same thing happens here on public land with our Merriams in southern NM. Many of the easy gobblers get killed early in the season, which takes out a bunch of gobbling birds. The ones that are left wise up pretty fast. If they don't, they end up dead, as well.
Our birds generally gobble well all the way to the end of the season, but the birds that are left are the older age-class birds that have been through it all enough times to know better than to approach turkey calling and some of the younger birds that managed to get through the initial onslaught.
Around here, by the end of the season, we are killing one gobbler for every five to ten that were killed in the first week or two. Some people think that waiting until the end of the season when there is less hunting pressure is a good idea. Around here, that is a good way to end up frustrated and turkeyless,....that is if you want to kill one by having him come to your calling.
I don't know,I mean it really depends...I think.
I think the birds will still gobble the same, or slightly less but how they react to your calling depends on how pressured they are.
For instance, I'd say most public land birds have heard the three main calls; yelp, cluck, and cutting. In fact, I'd bet money on it. To kill those deeps words birds I think you have to either ambush them, or step on them and/or change your calling sequences to say "clucks only". Or just cluck and purr softly and 2-3 note yelps.
Last week of the season this year I watches a tom and two Jakes strut out on a gasline hump for about an hour and never make a peep. There was 2 hens with them as well. I think towards the end of the season, they aren't in the mood as much as the beginning, sometimes. That said, if there aren't any hens with them and the birds are pressured, it really just depends on the experiences they have had throughout the season. If your calling from a familiar SAFE spot then then the chances of them wandering your way are greater.
I have been getting the same results here in SD on National Forest land. The pressure has been getting really intense here the last 5 years and as the season wears on the birds get less vocal. Everyone tells me the end of the season is best when the gobblers are lonely as the hens go to nest, I sure haven't found that to be true. I have always had better luck the first couple weeks of the season. I too have found fresh tracks and gobbler droppings in my hunting areas, but they have been talking much less. Even in the morning I hear a few weak gobbles, but nothing like the festival I would hear the beginning of the season. The lack of gobbling entices me to grab the fly rod. I keep pressing on, but it's hard to stay motivated when the gobbling really slows like this.
But, with the weather we're having now they all drowned!
Same here in Louisiana. After the second weekend of the season I never hear any more gobbling. There are alot of turkey hunters here that are really wanting to have the season pushed back, but I don't think it will really make a difference as far as gobbling goes. Most of the public areas I hunt have been hit hard by flooding the last few years and the poult survival has been down. I have noticed a dramatic decline in gobbling in these areas, probably because of very few 2 yr olds. I always hear way more gobbling in early March before the season opens while scouting. I hunt them hard the 1st 2 weeks of the season. Yes I do believe it is hunting pressure that ultimately gives them lock-jaw for late season. If all else fails set up an ambush. :gobble:
Good Luck
birds will alter their patterns and gobbling according to pressure. I observed a farm this year that has a lot of birds. Pre season and the first couple of days the birds would all gobble from a large patch of pines where they were roosted, pitch down and sail out into a large stretch of plowed and planted crop fields. (everyday) but after a few birds were shot in the fields they began to alter their patterns by dropping out of the tree on the upper pastures and walking down the hill to the fields giving more time to look for danger. by the second week of season after busting a few hunters before making it to the fields the birds were dropping out the back and walking up the mountain into the thick timber and some birds began roosting higher up the hill, they would then loaf for several hours silent and appear in the fields around 9 or 10am after the hunters had gone home.
If you've ever read Dr. Lovetts book "hunting pressured turkeys" he talks about how turkeys adjust and react to pressure but often dont leave like a deer would when faced with pressure they simply change or alter their day to day routines.. their moods have been somewhat soured by being bumped, ran into, shot at, and run out of the roost by hunters.
birds are still there, still bread, strutting, gobbling (sometimes) and generally doing their thing.. they just arent as open and free spirited once they've received pressure making traditional hunting tactics difficult.
late in the season my best tactics are late morning spot and stalk ambushes and slidding Extra close to the roost well before daylight (40yds if possible) * best done on wet rainy overcast mornings where walking is quiet and rain dropping from the trees covers other noises
IT SOUNDS LIKE THE SAME STORY ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, GOBBLING PEAK EARLY IN THE SEASON AND THEN THE DREADED LULL. I ALWAYS HUNT THE LATE SEASON HERE IN MI AS IT LETS ME HUNT THE WHOLE MONTH OF MAY. ONLY PROBLEM IS YOU ONLY GET 1 TAG. HERE, THAT LULL USUALLY MEANS A LITTLE GOBBLING ON THE ROOST THEN ALL GOES QUITE AFTER FLY DOWN. THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN A GOOD TIME FOR ME TO SLEEP IN AND GO OUT AROUND 10 AM. THE LAST 3 YEARS I'VE SHOT BIRDS HERE IN MI AT 2:30 PM, 11 AM AND 12:30 PM. ALL WERE MAY 15 OR LATER. IT CAN BE TOUGH, BUGS AND HEAT BUT IF YOU FIND A GOBBLING BIRD THE ODDS START TO TILT IN YOUR FAVOR. A FRIEND AND I USED THE SECOND SHIFT THEORY TO KILL SEVERAL PRESSURED GOBBLERS ON PUBLIC LAND IN NE MISSOURI, MOST BETWEEN 10 AM AND THEIR 12/1 PM CLOSING TIME. AS STATED EARLIER, MOST CAME IN WITHOUT A PEEP.
:smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Some of it may also be attributed to the breeding cycle. I've hunted a couple private farms in the late season that had no early season pressure (or at least not that the landowners knew about), and similar gobbling lulls occurred. In fact, I rarely heard any pre-flydown gobbles. A few isolated ones popped every once-in-a-while after about 10am, or so. Overall, I doubt the silence can be 100% attributed to pressure. Two months is a lot of time to stay excited. ;) ;)
I think hunting pressure greatly affects the area I hunt. Pretty much our country blocks are usually 1 mile from stop sign to stop sign. In three of those blocks around my family's area there are driveways that can drive anywhere from 1/3 mile to 1/2 mile back basically in the middle of the block. Well, once the season starts it ended up being a constant flow of trucks driving down those driveways out in the open to see if they can get on a bird. Some of these guys get out, walk in the middle of the field, crouched Elmer Fudd style to get to a bird and take 80 yard plus shots. If you are driving down the main road, not the farmer path mind you, and even slow down those birds turn around and bust toward the woods. For me, it makes it better because I'm willing to walk to the middle in the area absent of driveways/paths where the lazy guy doesn't want to venture far from his truck. Plus, with the pressure on those 3 blocks I didn't even hunt them very much, mainly for safety concern. If you can see them from the road, then chances are so can everybody else. Bad weather? I'm out there because everybody else just about stays in.
Without a doubt there is more gobbling earlier in the year here (New York) also. I also think there are a combination of factors that lend to the drop-off in gobbling, hunting pressure being the main one. But a close second I would say would be that the hens are bred and sitting on the nest. Our season starts May 1, well after the birds get ramped up, and by the end of the second week many of the hens I see in the start of the season are no longer there. The Toms know this and therefore gobble less. Just my opinion but it seems to work this way year after year.
I'm a firm believer that hunting pressure has alot to do with it, but not all.
We had a pretty decent start to the season, but at week 3 we got cold rainy weather. This put a huge kibosh to the gobbling.
By the last week when the hens were nesting, the gobbles on the roost were still fairly regular, but gobbling on the ground was almost non-existant.
So I feel weather has as much to do with the gobbling lull as serious hunting pressure. But on public land, high pressure hunting is as certain as death and taxes.
we make these birds out to be smarter than they really are, we act like these birds figure out our calls after a few weeks with their walnut sized brains.
when the bucks stop chasing we dont say its hunting pressure we say the ruts ending, same with turkeys it all depends on the breading cycle.
Quote from: stinkpickle on May 22, 2011, 10:26:23 PM
Some of it may also be attributed to the breeding cycle. I've hunted a couple private farms in the late season that had no early season pressure (or at least not that the landowners knew about), and similar gobbling lulls occurred. In fact, I rarely heard any pre-flydown gobbles. A few isolated ones popped every once-in-a-while after about 10am, or so. Overall, I doubt the silence can be 100% attributed to pressure. Two months is a lot of time to stay excited. ;) ;)
I think this has a lot to do with it and also the fact that alot of the vocal/co-operative birds get killed early in the season and the birds that are left are old and or less aggressive at gobbling and coming into the call...thus making them harder to hunt.
Just like some humans are more vocal than others, as is the case with dogs ( I train retrievers and each one has their own personality) and just about any other animal you could name.
It makes sense that the birds that are more aggressive and vocal will get culled out first because they are easier to kill as a result of their individual personalities. The birds that are naturally less aggressive/ less vocal end up living longer.
Ive hunted private properties before that have gone un-hunted in the years prior to my gaining access and witnessed plenty of birds that are subordinate/less aggressive/less vocal even though they have never been "educated" by hunting pressure.
The question in my mind is, are these turkey quiet because they are wise old birds with years of education due to pressure OR are they quiet by nature which has resulted in them living longer?
To the original question of how does pressure affect my hunting area. The birds get call shy, decoy shy and slow their approach often vearing 30 to 40 yards before the decoys and going around.
Quote from: TauntoHawk on May 31, 2011, 08:46:56 PM
we make these birds out to be smarter than they really are, we act like these birds figure out our calls after a few weeks with their walnut sized brains.
when the bucks stop chasing we dont say its hunting pressure we say the ruts ending, same with turkeys it all depends on the breading cycle.
:z-winnersmiley:
With turkeys it's all action and reaction. That's about all the walnut can compute. Their first reaction to getting bumped is running and hiding. They get bumped too many times they'll move out and won't leave a forwarding address. How many times? Some times just once. There are too many variables from changes in habitat, pressure, weather, etc. to come up with a definitive answer on why turkeys are turkeys. I can give you a guarantee for 2012. It'll be a whole new ball game again! Good luck with the new puzzle!
I think the natural slow down of gobbling in the breeding cycle is attributed to hunting pressure way more than it should be. I think it's more directly related to population density. The more gobblers you have in an area, the more competition continues throughout the breeding cycle. Hunters do bump birds, but I don't think they go far in most cases.
A tom turkey gobbles to attract hens that he thinks can't see him. Once he figures the hen should be able to see him he'll quit gobbling and start strutting. Most of the lulls in gobbling are simply because the toms are with the hens.
I think a lot of what we refer to as hunting pressure should probably be refered to as sloppy hunting. Calling to a bird won't make him wary unless you let him see you or pepper him with shot. You can't expect to cross a open hollow or field where the birds can see you from a long distance and still expect them to come to a call. An old fellow told me one time that every hunter a deer sees, he thinks it's a stump, but with a turkey, every stump he sees, he thinks it's a hunter. Turkeys aren't that smart, they're just that scared. Hunt sloppy and you'll have birds that won't cooperate like you want them to.
Unless you hunt in turkey utopia, there are birds everywhere that are subjected to sloppy hunting tactics. Those that are on public land are probably subjected to that every day before, during, and after the season. I'm sure the same holds true for a lot of private lands, as well.
Every one of us can strive to be the very best hunter and caller we can be,...but we will still make mistakes that result in turkeys associating turkey sounds with human beings. ...And even if we don't there are five guys out there that will for every one of us that won't. It is unavoidable, regardless of how good a hunter or caller you are.
Turkeys will learn to associate turkey calling with danger. Period. The more the season goes on, the more that association will be reinforced,...until they reach a point where their gobbling decreases, and their response to turkey noises they hear is overruled by fear of the possible consequences of responding and/or approaching turkey sounds.
We talk about how gobblers are affected by hunting pressure, but most hunters probably don't even think about how hens are affected and how they influence gobbler behavior. How many hens are out there that have witnessed gobblers being blown into a pile of feathers after approaching turkey sounds? Do you really think those turkeys don't have the mental capacity to learn to avoid turkey callng? Many a gobbler's life has been saved by hens that have been through the drill enough times that they dragged a perfectly willing gobbler away from a hunter's calls.
I may not be giving turkeys, or other animals for that matter, the credit they deserve. They may be able to reason but I believe I've read that they can't. I know they have very good instincts and I know they can have learned responses. By reasoning power I mean that they aren't able to pose a logical questions such as "if, then, else". I don't think they can think "if I hear a yelp it's a hunter but if it's just clucking it's a real turkey"
They are a prey species. You can tell that by the fact that their eyes are on the sides of their head. Almost everything in the woods is trying to eat them. It's bred into their genes that if they see or hear anything out of the ordinary, retreat, fast. I know it makes us feel good to think we've outsmarted a turkey but just remember these are the same birds that will spend hours poking their heads through all the squares in a wove-wire fence trying to find a hole big enough to get through and every time they stop for a moment they look over the top of the fence. When we kill a turkey we have overcome their keen senses and scaredy-cat nature. The only tom I've ever outsmarted was a silver phase tom I caught trying to get through a fence. I chased him into the honey suckle vines and picked him up and threw him over the fence. I showed him I was smarter then he was. :)
Of course that's just my opinion, and I could be wrong.
Quote from: 2ounce6s on June 15, 2011, 11:27:58 AM
I believe when you start to attribute human behavior and emotions to turkeys then you are just outsmarting yourself instead of the turkey...
This.
Okay, just for the sake of having something to discuss during the offseason, let's delve into this a bit deeper.
I will agree that I don't think turkeys are capable of "reasoned logic". That would be stretching it a bit. But the notion that turkeys are not capable of learning to associate danger with turkey calling,...or turkey decoys,....is a considerably different concept. There is a very big difference between the two.
Why do we consider two-year-old gobblers to be the easiest to kill? ....And conversely, why do we think more highly of ourselves when we kill older-age-class gobblers? If they are not capable of some sort of "learning", then there should be no difference in our ability to kill any of them. They are all just turkeys,...doing what turkeys do, ....right?
Wrong!...at least in my opinion,...and based on 47 spring seasons of observation and experience. Turkeys are very capable of "learning" to associate danger with sights,...and sounds,...that they have negative experiences with.
Which brings us back to the point, which is,...turkeys naturally get harder to kill as the season progresses because the ones that haven't already been killed "learn" to avoid doing things that have resulted in them having negative experiences.
Example: a gobbler gobbles on the roost....a little while later there are unfamiliar turkey-like sounds in the distance...he watches for an approaching hen that doesn't show up....he flies down and goes to the calling, only to get shot at and/or see a human being where there is supposed to be a willing hen turkey. How many times do you think that has to happen until that gobbler "learns" that it is not a good idea to approach the sounds...or even gobble much, if at all, on the roost? ...Not long, my friends.
Some will respond that this situation is caused by "sloppy" hunting tactics and calling. That is absolutely true,...but that is also a reality and fact of life for the great majority of us that hunt places that are not restricted to just a few select turkey hunting guru's.
In those 47 spring seasons, I have been fortunate enough to hunt a few turkey Utopia's in my time. I have also hunted lots of places on the other end of the spectrum. The turkeys in each are totally different from one another. The reason? ...Because the ones that don't reside in "Turkey Utopia" are very capable of "learning" what is not good for them!
Two year old turkeys are much more abundant and more likely to be without hens. It's not an easy debate. I have been in those highly pressured areas where you would hear no gobbling for days and days and then one day the switch comes on and even the older "smarter" gobblers come running gobbling their fool heads off. It sure is fun!!!! Only 8 or 9 months till season.
"I think we are just using different terms for the same thoughts basically. I use "conditioned" where you use "learn". Learn implies the ability to reason. Condition does not. "
Agreed,....it often just semantics. The points made are good ones....especially the one about turkey season being over and us needing something to talk about! ;D
Okay, since we've got a few months to kill, let's expand on this subject some.
I think we can all agree that it's harder to kill an older gobbler than it is a young one. Whether that's because the older birds are smarter or just because there are fewer of them really doesn't matter. They are a trophy either way. What I now wonder is if one subspecies of turkey is "smarter" than the other. Which is the smarter, the Eastern, the Rio, the Merriam or maybe the Osceola? Is one smarter than the other or is there some mitigating factor that makes them easier or harder to kill? Is the Eastern harder to kill than the Rio because he's smarter or is the Rio easier to kill because of the open terrain and shear numbers in a typical roost? Is the Osceola extra smart or is it just hard to find a place to hunt them. Is the Merriam easier to kill because they are not as smart or harder because they are in the wide open spaces? How would you rate the birds and why?
I don't know which is "smarter" but I do know that some turkeys are smarter than others just like some people are as sharp as a tack and others don't know which end to pound with a hammer. I'm referring to birds of the same subspecies.
As far as which subspecies is smarter I'll leave that up to those who have hunted all four subspecies. I've only hunted Merriam's and Rio's and some have been very easy to kill while others have been unkillable!
Quote from: Nimrodmar10 on June 20, 2011, 11:06:05 AM
How would you rate the birds and why?
Their all as hard or easy as the hunter hunting them makes them.
I've only killed Osceolas, Easterns, and a handfull of Merriams. I grew up hunting Osceolas and Easterns. To me their all fairly easy to kill most of the time unless your mind goes blank and you out think yourself. Out of the three I'd say the simplest to figure out were the Merriams. They were pressured public land birds but still not much of a challenge. Maybe a hundred miles down the road they may have been harder to kill I don't know, but my experience with them is they were like killing chickens. I think with the Merriam it's the terrain and thin air that can be tough. I think they were put here for people who have trouble killing Easterns and Osceolas ;D. I probably won't hunt them again, but if I do I think I'll just carry a bag of rocks until the last day, then I'll use the shotgun if I have a tag left. The Osceolas and Easterns are about the same to me, just a different setting. I haven't hunted Rio's yet, so I can't comment on them.
I agree entirely with the idea that the difficulty or ease of hunting each subspecies is greatly a function of how much they have been hunted. I also agree that within any turkey population there are individual birds that can either be laughably easy or frustratingly difficult.
Here's my list:
Goulds---easiest to kill----as a whole, they just haven't been hunted enough to develop good survival instincts.
Merriams---This should be qualified. There are lots of public lands to hunt them on,...but there are "public-lands" Merriams,...and then there are "hard-hunted public-lands Merriams". There is a big difference between the two. Your average Merriams can be really easy,...but the hard-hunted guys can be as hard as any birds, anywhere. Of course, that can be said about any of the subspecies. All things being equal, the Merriams is the second easiest. They gobble way too much for their own good. A good hunter can figure a way to ill one of them when they are constantly letting you know where they are at.
Osceola---Once again,...I'm sure there is a big difference in public and private lands birds, but I have only hunted them on private land, and only three times, and to tell the truth, they were not all that hard to kill. I suspect my attitude about them would change with more hunting experience,...and on public land.
Rios---These guys have been my nemesis. I have killed a bunch of them, but they have never been as easy as most hunters seem to think they are. On my personal list, they are the second hardest to hunt. I have had more weird stuff happen when hunting them that saved their lives than you could imagine. I think I am jinxed with Rios.
Easterns---From my perspective, they are the kings. I love that angry gobble of theirs, but they are way too stingy with them,...which I think is the reason I have found them difficult to hunt. I don't think they are terribly hard to call in,...if you can find one that wants to gobble to let you know they are there. Plus, their reaction time is amazing. Spook one in shooting range, and he will be gone in an instant. I love hunting Easterns,...just wish they were not so far from NM.
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 21, 2011, 09:47:26 AM
Goulds---easiest to kill----as a whole, they just haven't been hunted enough to develop good survival instincts.
If and when I do decide to try for a Goulds (On N"WTF" land of course), should I just bring a rock or a stick? And is there any need to camo it!
Naw,...don't bother with the rock or stick. You can just call 'em right up and grab 'em by the neck. You can't grag 'em by the legs or they will fly off with you. ....Wear bright pink,....they seem to be partial to that,...especially on those NWTF lands!
;D :newmascot:
Quote from: GobbleNut on June 21, 2011, 10:11:26 AM
Wear bright pink,....they seem to be partial to that,...especially on those NWTF lands!
Thats a fact that few people realize. GobblerD figured it out and implemented it into a new line of decoy's.
The public land birds here are very non vocal.
Hunting pressur really effects the birds on the wma I hunt. If you dont get them early you could end up turkey less. The birds wont respond to locator talk. But do respond to hen talk. I just set up in areas I know turkeys frequent when the pressure is on and gobbling ceases.
i think the lack of competition has a little bit to do with it. most of the aggressive birds get killed quick and those that are left have the hens. where i hunt we have had a influx of coyotes that some hunters are blaming for lack of gobbling. most likely a combination of the two.
Pa. as a whole gets ALOT of hunting pressure even on private property. Public or private they tend to be less vocal here then years past. IMO the increase in Coyote numbers has had an effect also.
:fud: :OGani: