Hunting pressure...... How does it affect your hunting area?

[drenalinld]

I think the natural slow down of gobbling in the breeding cycle is attributed to hunting pressure way more than it should be. I think it's more directly related to population density. The more gobblers you have in an area, the more competition continues throughout the breeding cycle. Hunters do bump birds, but I don't think they go far in most cases.

[Nimrodmar10]

A tom turkey gobbles to attract hens that he thinks can't see him. Once he figures the hen should be able to see him he'll quit gobbling and start strutting. Most of the lulls in gobbling are simply because the toms are with the hens.
I think a lot of what we refer to as hunting pressure should probably be refered to as sloppy hunting. Calling to a bird won't make him wary unless you let him see you or pepper him with shot. You can't expect to cross a open hollow or field where the birds can see you from a long distance and still expect them to come to a call. An old fellow told me one time that every hunter a deer sees, he thinks it's a stump, but with a turkey, every stump he sees, he thinks it's a hunter. Turkeys aren't that smart, they're just that scared. Hunt sloppy and you'll have birds that won't cooperate like you want them to.

[GobbleNut]

Unless you hunt in turkey utopia, there are birds everywhere that are subjected to sloppy hunting tactics.  Those that are on public land are probably subjected to that every day before, during, and after the season.  I'm sure the same holds true for a lot of private lands, as well.

Every one of us can strive to be the very best hunter and caller we can be,...but we will still make mistakes that result in turkeys associating turkey sounds with human beings.  ...And even if we don't there are five guys out there that will  for every one of us that won't.  It is unavoidable, regardless of how good a hunter or caller you are. 

Turkeys will learn to associate turkey calling with danger. Period.  The more the season goes on, the more that association will be reinforced,...until they reach a point where their gobbling decreases, and their response to turkey noises they hear is overruled by fear of the possible consequences of responding and/or approaching turkey sounds.   

We talk about how gobblers are affected by hunting pressure, but most hunters probably don't even think about how hens are affected and how they influence gobbler behavior.  How many hens are out there that have witnessed gobblers being blown into a pile of feathers after approaching turkey sounds?  Do you really think those turkeys don't have the mental capacity to learn to avoid turkey callng?  Many a gobbler's life has been saved by hens that have been through the drill enough times that they dragged a perfectly willing gobbler away from a hunter's calls. 

[Nimrodmar10]

I may not be giving turkeys, or other animals for that matter, the credit they deserve. They may be able to reason but I believe I've read that they can't. I know they have very good instincts and I know they can have learned responses. By reasoning power I mean that they aren't able to pose a logical questions such as "if, then, else". I don't think they can think "if I hear a yelp it's a hunter but if it's just clucking it's a real turkey"

They are a prey species. You can tell that by the fact that their eyes are on the sides of their head. Almost everything in the woods is trying to eat them. It's bred into their genes that if they see or hear anything out of the ordinary, retreat, fast. I know it makes us feel good to think we've outsmarted a turkey but just remember these are the same birds that will spend hours poking their heads through all the squares in a wove-wire fence trying to find a hole big enough to get through and every time they stop for a moment they look over the top of the fence. When we kill a turkey we have overcome their keen senses and scaredy-cat nature. The only tom I've ever outsmarted was a silver phase tom I caught trying to get through a fence. I chased him into the honey suckle vines and picked him up and threw him over the fence. I showed him I was smarter then he was.

Of course that's just my opinion, and I could be wrong.

[stinkpickle]

I believe when you start to attribute human behavior and emotions to turkeys then you are just outsmarting yourself instead of the turkey...

This.

[GobbleNut]

Okay, just for the sake of having something to discuss during the offseason, let's delve into this a bit deeper. 

I will agree that I don't think turkeys are capable of "reasoned logic".  That would be stretching it a bit.  But the notion that turkeys are not capable of learning to associate danger with turkey calling,...or turkey decoys,....is a considerably different concept.  There is a very big difference between the two.

Why do we consider two-year-old gobblers to be the easiest to kill? ....And conversely, why do we think more highly of ourselves when we kill older-age-class gobblers?  If they are not capable of some sort of "learning", then there should be no difference in our ability to kill any of them.  They are all just turkeys,...doing what turkeys do, ....right?

Wrong!...at least in my opinion,...and based on 47 spring seasons of observation and experience.  Turkeys are very capable of "learning" to associate danger with sights,...and sounds,...that they have negative experiences with.

Which brings us back to the point, which is,...turkeys naturally get harder to kill as the season progresses because the ones that haven't already been killed "learn" to avoid doing things that have resulted in them having negative experiences.

Example:  a gobbler gobbles on the roost....a little while later there are unfamiliar turkey-like sounds in the distance...he watches for an approaching hen that doesn't show up....he flies down and goes to the calling, only to get shot at and/or see a human being where there is supposed to be a willing hen turkey.  How many times do you think that has to happen until that gobbler "learns" that it is not a good idea to approach the sounds...or even gobble much, if at all, on the roost?  ...Not long, my friends.

Some will respond that this situation is caused by "sloppy" hunting tactics and calling.  That is absolutely true,...but that is also a reality and fact of life for the great majority of us that hunt places that are not restricted to just a few select turkey hunting guru's. 

In those 47 spring seasons, I have been fortunate enough to hunt a few turkey Utopia's in my time.  I have also hunted lots of places on the other end of the spectrum.  The turkeys in each are totally different from one another.  The reason?  ...Because the ones that don't reside in "Turkey Utopia" are very capable of "learning" what is not good for them!

[drenalinld]

Two year old turkeys are much more abundant and more likely to be without hens. It's not an easy debate. I have been in those highly pressured areas where you would hear no gobbling for days and days and then one day the switch comes on and even the older "smarter" gobblers come running gobbling their fool heads off. It sure is fun!!!! Only 8 or 9 months till season.

[GobbleNut]

"I think we are just using different terms for the same thoughts basically. I use "conditioned" where you use "learn". Learn implies the ability to reason. Condition does not. "

Agreed,....it often just semantics.  The points made are good ones....especially the one about turkey season being over and us needing something to talk about!   

[Nimrodmar10]

Okay, since we've got a few months to kill, let's expand on this subject some.

I think we can all agree that it's harder to kill an older gobbler than it is a young one. Whether that's because the older birds are smarter or just because there are fewer of them really doesn't matter. They are a trophy either way. What I now wonder is if one subspecies of turkey is "smarter" than the other. Which is the smarter, the Eastern, the Rio, the Merriam or maybe the Osceola? Is one smarter than the other or is there some mitigating factor that makes them easier or harder to kill? Is the Eastern harder to kill than the Rio because he's smarter or is the Rio easier to kill because of the open terrain and shear numbers in a typical roost? Is the Osceola extra smart or is it just hard to find a place to hunt them. Is the Merriam easier to kill because they are not as smart or harder because they are in the wide open spaces? How would you rate the birds  and why?

[WyoHunter]

I don't know which is "smarter" but I do know that some turkeys are smarter than others just like some people are as sharp as a tack and others don't know which end to pound with a hammer. I'm referring to birds of the same subspecies.
As far as which subspecies is smarter I'll leave that up to those who have hunted all four subspecies. I've only hunted Merriam's and Rio's and some have been very easy to kill while others have been unkillable! 

[guesswho]

How would you rate the birds  and why?

Their all as hard or easy as the hunter hunting them makes them.

I've only killed Osceolas, Easterns, and a handfull of Merriams.  I grew up hunting Osceolas and Easterns.  To me their all fairly easy to kill most of the time unless your mind goes blank and you out think yourself.  Out of the three I'd say the simplest to figure out were the Merriams.  They were pressured public land birds but still not much of a challenge.  Maybe a hundred miles down the road they may have been harder to kill I don't know, but my experience with them is they were like killing chickens.  I think with the Merriam it's the terrain and thin air that can be tough.  I think they were put here for people who have trouble killing Easterns and Osceolas .  I probably won't hunt them again, but if I do I think I'll just carry a bag of rocks until the last day, then I'll use the shotgun if I have a tag left.  The Osceolas and Easterns are about the same to me, just a different setting.   I haven't hunted Rio's yet, so I can't comment on them.   

[GobbleNut]

I agree entirely with the idea that the difficulty or ease of hunting each subspecies is greatly a function of how much they have been hunted.  I also agree that within any turkey population there are individual birds that can either be laughably easy or frustratingly difficult. 

Here's my list:
Goulds---easiest to kill----as a whole, they just haven't been hunted enough to develop good survival instincts.

Merriams---This should be qualified.  There are lots of public lands to hunt them on,...but there are "public-lands" Merriams,...and then there are "hard-hunted public-lands Merriams".  There is a big difference between the two.  Your average Merriams can be really easy,...but the hard-hunted guys can be as hard as any birds, anywhere.  Of course, that can be said about any of the subspecies.  All things being equal, the Merriams is the second easiest.  They gobble way too much for their own good.  A good hunter can figure a way to ill one of them when they are constantly letting you know where they are at.

Osceola---Once again,...I'm sure there is a big difference in public and private lands birds, but I have only hunted them on private land, and only three times, and to tell the truth, they were not all that hard to kill.  I suspect my attitude about them would change with more hunting experience,...and on public land.

Rios---These guys have been my nemesis.  I have killed a bunch of them, but they have never been as easy as most hunters seem to think they are.   On my personal list, they are the second hardest to hunt.  I have had more weird stuff happen when hunting them that saved their lives than you could imagine.  I think I am jinxed with Rios.

Easterns---From my perspective, they are the kings.  I love that angry gobble of theirs, but they are way too stingy with them,...which I think is the reason I have found them difficult to hunt.  I don't think they are terribly hard to call in,...if you can find one that wants to gobble to let you know they are there.  Plus, their reaction time is amazing.  Spook one in shooting range, and he will be gone in an instant.  I love hunting Easterns,...just wish they were not so far from NM.

[guesswho]

Goulds---easiest to kill----as a whole, they just haven't been hunted enough to develop good survival instincts.

If and when I do decide to try for a Goulds (On N"WTF" land of course), should I just bring a rock or a stick?  And is there any need to camo it!

[GobbleNut]

Naw,...don't bother with the rock or stick.  You can just call 'em right up and grab 'em by the neck.  You can't grag 'em by the legs or they will fly off with you.   ....Wear bright pink,....they seem to be partial to that,...especially on those NWTF lands!
   

[guesswho]

Wear bright pink,....they seem to be partial to that,...especially on those NWTF lands!

Thats a fact that few people realize.  GobblerD figured it out and implemented it into a new line of decoy's.