Pines and turkey numbers in the southeast

[catman529]

I hunted a wma in Alabama two years ago that was mostly a huge pine farm. They had clear cut a large portion of it, and were still cutting while I was there. I struggled to even see a turkey and the only gobbles I heard we're across the river on private land that hadn't been cut. I talked to several locals and they said the turkey hunting used to be really good. One guy said the birds liked to roost in the mature stands of pine, but there were very few mature pines left, mostly younger ones and clear cut. The only places they didn't cut were the bottoms of the hollows (SMZ). There did seem to be plenty of deer sign, and hogs too. But the turkeys mostly left the area after all the clear cutting.


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[RutnNStrutn]

One guy said the birds liked to roost in the mature stands of pine, but there were very few mature pines left, mostly younger ones and clear cut. The only places they didn't cut were the bottoms of the hollows (SMZ). There did seem to be plenty of deer sign, and hogs too. But the turkeys mostly left the area after all the clear cutting.

Same with one of the properties I hunt in SC. Used to be 35 year old pines with hardwood strands snaking through the property, in the transition zones there were even older pines and then the hardwood bottoms. The place was loaded with turkeys. After they logged the pines, you only see the occasional turkey walking the roads.



Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.

[briton]

I have a theory that is based solely on experience in my region, but it goes like this:

Timber harvest methods have dramatically shifted in the past decade or so.  In SE Arkansas, the old idea was to thin around 15 years, thing again around 20, thing again at 30, then finally a clear cut (rough numbers).

The shift has become; thin at 12, again at 15, clear at 20.  The amount of area has changed dramatically as well.  Small tract timber harvests are a thing of the past as timber companies in my area have come and gone.  Used to be Georgia Pacific ground everywhere.  Now we got Weyerhaeuser, GP, Carter Jones, Potlatch, etc.  This has created an effect of over harvesting and large swaths of land where habitat shifts are too overwhelming for nervous animals (i.e. turkey/quail) take flight over fight.


My biggest take away though is that this is only about 25% of the problem with turkey.  The other 75% is weather effecting nesting, the natural drop in population after the huge increase in the early 2000s (what goes up must come down), human intervention (probably the least amount of the problem IMO), and predators (2nd lowest impact IMO).

If I had to put a number on biggest impacts:
1. Weather
2. Natural drop
3. Predators
4. Hunan intervention

So two paragraphs about how timber harvesting negatively effects turkeys and then weather, weather of all things is the number one reason for decline? Turkeys live in various weather climates across country successfully and always have. Predators have always been around. Not trying to argue but I think this is a productive thread and I like hearing different opinions and arguments from all sides. Timber harvesting/monoculture of pine/ human population increase and development, basically habitat loss has to be addressed  when discussing a decreasing population while looking at the data collected. timber moguls and companies would probably like to hang me for stating the obvious, even my supervisor and coworkers hate any kind of conservation talk if it involves leaving hardwoods alone.


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[Spurs]

I have a theory that is based solely on experience in my region, but it goes like this:

Timber harvest methods have dramatically shifted in the past decade or so.  In SE Arkansas, the old idea was to thin around 15 years, thing again around 20, thing again at 30, then finally a clear cut (rough numbers).

The shift has become; thin at 12, again at 15, clear at 20.  The amount of area has changed dramatically as well.  Small tract timber harvests are a thing of the past as timber companies in my area have come and gone.  Used to be Georgia Pacific ground everywhere.  Now we got Weyerhaeuser, GP, Carter Jones, Potlatch, etc.  This has created an effect of over harvesting and large swaths of land where habitat shifts are too overwhelming for nervous animals (i.e. turkey/quail) take flight over fight.


My biggest take away though is that this is only about 25% of the problem with turkey.  The other 75% is weather effecting nesting, the natural drop in population after the huge increase in the early 2000s (what goes up must come down), human intervention (probably the least amount of the problem IMO), and predators (2nd lowest impact IMO).

If I had to put a number on biggest impacts:
1. Weather
2. Natural drop
3. Predators
4. Hunan intervention

So two paragraphs about how timber harvesting negatively effects turkeys and then weather, weather of all things is the number one reason for decline? Turkeys live in various weather climates across country successfully and always have. Predators have always been around. Not trying to argue but I think this is a productive thread and I like hearing different opinions and arguments from all sides. Timber harvesting/monoculture of pine/ human population increase and development, basically habitat loss has to be addressed  when discussing a decreasing population while looking at the data collected. timber moguls and companies would probably like to hang me for stating the obvious, even my supervisor and coworkers hate any kind of conservation talk if it involves leaving hardwoods alone.


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Exactly, timber harvest methods do have an impact, but I am doubtful they have as much of an impact as many would like to believe. 

Take N Arkansas.  The timber up there is nearly entirely hardwood forests, very little large scale logging, and the turkey population is the worst seen in over 20 years.  Now take the south, where wildlife kinda "got used to" the habitat changing over extended periods, to what is now a dramatic changes in large doses over vast amounts of property. 

My point about weather related mainly to my area.  We had state wide floods in late spring for about 5 years straight.  That was due to record rain fall (I.e. weather) and other related evens (I.e. fast thawing at the mouth of the MS River).

Yea, timber management (human intervention) has it finger in the pie, but not to the extreme people want to make it out to be. 

I would love to see more timber companies adopt a more stringent SZM goal to protect out natural drainages, because diversity is always a good thing.  I'd also be super pumped if they would begin to allow lease holders to conduct controlled burns (well, pay for a contractor).  But I think the entire "all the hardwoods are gone" card is kinda over played.

[panolaproductions]

Here is my 2 cents from my own observations of different properties I have hunted and from managing family property in Alabama.

Diversity is always key. A healthy mix of pines, hardwoods, open ground and all in varying stages yields better turkey numbers.

The biggest thing I have noticed and we have corrected on our property is fragmented habitat.

Years ago, we had an 80 acre block of mature, swampy hardwoods that was some of the best I've ever hunted. This particular block essentially connected 2 or more larger blocks of 'turkey woods'. This block got clearcut and was not replanted, essentially growing up into a swampy briar thicket for 20+ years. Turkeys still don't use this block. Turkey numbers plummeted without any other major change in the landscape. We were left with small sections or pockets of 'turkey woods' that were beautiful, but did not hold turkeys. Spring after spring we scratched our heads wondering why we never heard any birds in these places. Finally, after years of thinking on it, I came up with this.

Turkeys like to roam. Turkeys avoid predators and areas where they are susceptible to them. As I started studying satellite imagery, I noticed that turkeys had no easy and SAFE way to access these particular sections or pockets of 'turkey woods'. Turkeys don't like walking down 'death tunnels' that are barely big enough for an ATV where they can be easily ambushed by a predator, but will readily move down wide roads. They needed access to these isolated pockets of 'turkey woods'. So we started creating and maintaining travel corridors for turkeys to move to and from these different pockets of 'turkey woods'. We created these through specific logging requests, widening roads, and land clearing with a bulldozer. These corridors are maintained by bush hogging or fire now.

Since we have connected all of our 'turkey woods' pockets or sections, number have gone back up, in these once vacant pockets, in particular. This was also combined with trapping nest predators and routine burns. Our ultimate goal for our property is to have diversity, but maintain a landscape that can always be navigated by turkeys by having 2 or more travel routes available to them to move from this section to that section. This results in our planted pines being slightly more fragmented than they were originally, but it isn't a drastic change. Every decision we make about timber harvest is made with turkeys in mind and how it will affect them and the landscape they inhabit. I realize not everyone has property that they can manage or make decisions on, but these are simply my own observations.

The takeaway is that turkeys need and want space to roam and need to be able to do so freely and safely. If you are able, open up some wide travel corridors between 'turkey woods' and they will use them.

[bbcoach]

THIS, what panalap said!  Yes turkeys will leave areas that have been clear cut for a short period of time.  As soon as the pines are replanted and the young brush and grass returns, the turkeys will return to feed just like the deer and other wildlife.  I'm not sure what hardwoods play into the equation as some have stated but turkeys find plenty to eat and will roost in pines as small as 10-15 feet.  They will use roads for strut zones and move from sections of woods to section of woods.  Most plantations are selective thinned which opens the understory allowing more open areas, so scouting birds is your friend.  Hens choose very thick areas to lay eggs, which leads to better hatches.  Many of us plant food plots that gives hens and poults bugging opportunities.  IMO pine plantations aren't a problem with declining populations.  They are tough to hunt but you have to put in some leg work, know where the birds are and where they want to go.

[PaytonWP]

Sorry guys here's the maps.

anonymous pictures website

lightshot

[Ihuntoldschool]

This is by far the biggest reason for the turkey population decline in the Southeast IMO.  Timber Harvest.

[ChesterCopperpot]

This is by far the biggest reason for the turkey population decline in the Southeast IMO.  Timber Harvest.

Then why the exponential increase of birds through the 90s and early 2000s as timber harvest increased? And why the similar decline in places like western North Carolina where there's been no timber harvest to speak of, particularly pines, in any of that timeframe? I'm not saying I don't think it's played a role. I do. But I don't know that I believe it's the biggest cause of decline.

[GobbleNut]

This is by far the biggest reason for the turkey population decline in the Southeast IMO.  Timber Harvest.

Then why the exponential increase of birds through the 90s and early 2000s as timber harvest increased? And why the similar decline in places like western North Carolina where there's been no timber harvest to speak of, particularly pines, in any of that timeframe? I'm not saying I don't think it's played a role. I do. But I don't know that I believe it's the biggest cause of decline.

I couldn't say for sure, but I would suspect the problems created by timber management practices are a function of the intensity of those programs (as shown on the maps).  The more timber companies move towards monocultural practices without regard for maintaining habitat conditions for wildlife, the more that wildlife is unable to survive there. 

The basic tenet of wildlife management is "food, water, cover".  If any of those things is missing (or, in this case, removed through increasingly intense timber practices) wildlife is going to suffer.  Yes, turkeys can survive on wisely-managed timber operations,....operations that understand that they have to leave enough suitable habitat on the landscape for wildlife to have something to eat. 

I suspect there is a direct correlation between turkey numbers and the availability of adequate food sources on those high-intensity, monocultural timber tracts. I would also suspect that correlation is a function of the timber companies owner/manager's concern for wildlife as opposed to putting dollars in their pockets.   

[ChesterCopperpot]

This is by far the biggest reason for the turkey population decline in the Southeast IMO.  Timber Harvest.

Then why the exponential increase of birds through the 90s and early 2000s as timber harvest increased? And why the similar decline in places like western North Carolina where there's been no timber harvest to speak of, particularly pines, in any of that timeframe? I'm not saying I don't think it's played a role. I do. But I don't know that I believe it's the biggest cause of decline.

I couldn't say for sure, but I would suspect the problems created by timber management practices are a function of the intensity of those programs (as shown on the maps).  The more timber companies move towards monocultural practices without regard for maintaining habitat conditions for wildlife, the more that wildlife is unable to survive there. 

The basic tenet of wildlife management is "food, water, cover".  If any of those things is missing (or, in this case, removed through increasingly intense timber practices) wildlife is going to suffer.  Yes, turkeys can survive on wisely-managed timber operations,....operations that understand that they have to leave enough suitable habitat on the landscape for wildlife to have something to eat. 

I suspect there is a direct correlation between turkey numbers and the availability of adequate food sources on those high-intensity, monocultural timber tracts. I would also suspect that correlation is a function of the timber companies owner/manager's concern for wildlife as opposed to putting dollars in their pockets.   

That makes sense, but again it does not account for the same declines being experienced in areas that have zero timber harvest, specifically pines. And in areas that have been in heavy monocultural pine rotation since the 70s, those places saw bird numbers shoot up, stabilize, and now decline in habitat that's changed very little. Trying not to tie into another thread, but some things you said in the NWTF thread carry over here in that much of the problems with this particular type of farming could be addressed with dollars and volunteerism from that group. At one point in this thread people talked about fire for instance and that it became cost prohibitive for the land owners to do it. If it's good for birds I know a group with a whole lot of money that could fund some of that burning.

[bbcoach]

If this article and graphs had any validity then Eastern NC wouldn't have a single turkey.  I didn't get interested in turkey hunting until turkeys were reintroduced here in the 90's.  I actually started hunting them in 2007 and harvested my first Eastern in the spring of 2009.  What most of you don't understand, mature pines are harvested on a rotational basis of between 25 to 30 years with trees being thinned (for pulp and OSB) about every 8 to 10 years.  Our 4500 acres, mostly pines with some mixed hardwoods in the swampy areas, are broken up into many smaller tracts, planted, thinned and harvested at different times during that 30 year cycle.  All Wildlife thrive in this environment.  Deer, turkey, bear, bobcat, coyotes, raccoon, hawks, etc, all have their place in the pines.  I'll leave each of you with this, I have been hunting this particular lease for 15 years now.  When I started hunting turkeys in 2007, our lease had a few pockets of turkeys here and there.  Thirteen years later, our turkey population on our lease and in Eastern NC has made a dramatic increase in population with many more turkey sightings throughout. 

[redleg06]

From my own experience, areas with well-managed (burned on a set schedule/rotation) pines can be very productive areas for turkey and provide pretty good hunting. On the flip side, I've hunted some predominantly pine areas that weren't burned and/or managed for wildlife and the results were in line with that. 

[Southerngobbler]

There's never been a hunting place more devoid of deer than a large mature forest, whitetails and I assume other animals (turkeys) usually benefit from mans manipulation of the forest; as long as they're not turning it into a shopping plaza or housing development its usually beneficial. It would be nice if they left a few more oaks though.

[catman529]

There's never been a hunting place more devoid of deer than a large mature forest, whitetails and I assume other animals (turkeys) usually benefit from mans manipulation of the forest; as long as they're not turning it into a shopping plaza or housing development its usually beneficial. It would be nice if they left a few more oaks though.

Deer are very adaptable and love human altered habitat, but I think the extensive logging on Alabama WMAs has hurt the turkeys in many areas from what I've seen and heard. Not sure if it's the same on private tree farms or not.


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