Wisconsin's Flock Dwindling

[LaLongbeard]

Found this map from the 1975 book Hunting the American Wild Turkey by Harbour. A lot has changed in 44 years. Wisconsin along with several NE states had no season some had no turkeys at all. La was ahead of both Tenn and Kentucky and now they have 10 time more turkeys than we do. We have less turkeys today then Mississippi had in 1975? I've said it before a lot of the  Northern states are in the high population phase of the turkey reintroduction. It will not always be like it is today.


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[idgobble]

That population map is very incorrect for my state. It says 3500 and the actual population was probably 350. Maybe they added a "0" by mistake.

[sixbird]

We hear all the arguments regarding populations. My belief is that it's a multifaceted problem.
I know there are guys that shoot over the limit and use bait and do all sorts of things that are detrimental to turkey populations. They need to be weeded out or need to change their ways.
As far as seasons coming in later, I'm not so sure about that. Once hens are bred, they stay fertile for weeks, so I'm not sure that's a huge issue.
I KNOW that we've had Spring weather that's been wet and cold. I KNOW that poults don't generally survive that.
I also know that there has been a major increase in the number of predators since the fur markets have declined. Hens are killed on the nest and nests destroyed by raccoons, skunks, opossums, foxes and coyotes.
I know people say that coyotes aren't a major turkey killer, but I've witnessed them attacking decoys and I've had a number of friends who have had coyotes come to their hen yelps. That tells me coyotes are having success at killing turkeys.
I also know that some game commissions, N.J. notably, that want to sell tags more than they want to have a stable population.
So what's the solution? I think addressing all these things, aside from weather of course, is the best we can do. The problem though, is, I think, weather. Weather is probably the most dramatic determiner of population density...

[bbcoach]

I'll put money on the weather as being the number 1 cause of lower turkey numbers in Wisconsin.  The winters over the last 2 year's have been BRUTAL. When you get and keep 30 inches of snow and 35 below temps for most of the winter and then get a foot to 18 inches of snow as late as the middle of May Mother Nature is going to take a fair share of your wildlife.  Nothing to eat and below zero temps will kill wildlife.  BRUTAL WINTERS up there.

[snoodcrusher]

Brutal winters kill turkeys, yes.  Wet, cool springs are hard on poult survival, yes. But many southern states have sharply declining populations and winter kills are not an issue and we haven't had numerous consecutive years of cool wet springs.  In these instances, habitat loss, forest/ag management conflicts, and predators are likely the main causes of falling numbers of wild turkeys.  It certainly is alarming and the issue is almost  nation wide.  Could it also be caused by herbicides and pesticides?  Until there is a definitive answer I do not believe anything should be ruled out. 


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[Paulmyr]

Don't forget biological reasons. A couple years ago mn had an outbreak of avian flu which decimated domestic fowl. It was said that wild populations would not be effected and it appears that didn't happen. Who knows maybe it's possible for a mutation and a jump to wild populations. Here in the northern states the cold weather during winter kills the bug how about southern states? Just a thought.

[eggshell]

I have wondered if introducing some new genetic stock would help after many years. Geneticist will tell you that there is enough diversity within the gene pool, but I wonder if new birds might spark some hardiness in the reproductive stock.

[Spurs Up]

I have wondered if introducing some new genetic stock would help after many years. Geneticist will tell you that there is enough diversity within the gene pool, but I wonder if new birds might spark some hardiness in the reproductive stock.

Guess it might, maybe could. However, if that theory about it taking time for predators to "develop a taste" for turkeys when birds are first relocated holds any water, then wouldn't the opposite also be true?  That is, naive birds put in a foreign landscape with seasoned predators that key in on turkeys. Easy pickings...

[GobbleNut]

I have wondered if introducing some new genetic stock would help after many years. Geneticist will tell you that there is enough diversity within the gene pool, but I wonder if new birds might spark some hardiness in the reproductive stock.

Totally agree,...not only from the standpoint of genetic diversification and "hybrid vigor", but also just from the standpoint that the more birds that are there, the greater the potential for recovery from down cycles in populations.  Again, it all comes back around to restoring the aggressive "trap and transplant" attitudes that used to exist and now seem to have faded.

There are plenty of places around the country where turkey depredation issues still exist,...that is, farmers and folks, in general, complaining about too many turkeys.  There is a simple solution for lack of turkeys in some places versus the overabundance of turkeys in others.  It just takes money to implement that solution.

Therein lies the problem.  You want to see more turkeys where populations have declined.  Then 1) pressure your wildlife management agencies to reinstitute "trap and transplant" and 2) "put your money where your mouth is",...that is, establish a funding base for doing that.

Of course, we have to overcome the mentality of "we will just let nature take its course, not intervene, and see what happens".  Sure, we can take that approach,...but why?  We know that "trap and transplant" works tremendously well for establishing wild turkey populations.  Why is it that the same mentality cannot be applied to supplementing existing populations that are struggling?

Some argue against that based on the "carrying capacity" theory,...which is generally applied in circumstances regarding over-population of species due to over-protection or a lack of a sufficient mortality rate.  The carrying-capacity theory just does not apply in many of the areas experiencing turkey declines.  Those declines are being caused by a lack of sufficient "population recruitment",...that is, "nesting success",...over time. 

Again, we have covered all the bases as to why recruitment is failing,...predators and climactic/environmental factors (spring flooding, fires, ag practices).  Those factors are likely to continue over time. 

So what is the obvious solution if we want more turkeys somewhere that their numbers are crashing and there is a continued lack of population recruitment in the form of poult survival?  Put more adult birds in the population by getting back to that "trap 'em and transplant 'em" mentality,...and find a way to pay for it!

[guesswho]

Put more adult birds in the population by getting back to that "trap 'em and transplant 'em" mentality,...and find a way to pay for it!

I know a place where you may could get some boxes.  Might even sell them to you at a reduced rate, especially if you allowed them to put their company logo on the boxes.  I'll pm you the info.

[GobbleNut]

Put more adult birds in the population by getting back to that "trap 'em and transplant 'em" mentality,...and find a way to pay for it!

I know a place where you may could get some boxes.  Might even sell them to you at a reduced rate, especially if you allowed them to put their company logo on the boxes.  I'll pm you the info.

That "place" is where the "attitude adjustment" needs to begin.   

[guesswho]

 

[Ozarks Hillbilly]

I still see habitat as being the key to any form of wildlife. If you have a area that once was teaming with game and no longer is we need to look at what has changed in the area. In my area of south central Missouri I can take you to area's of the Mark Twain NF that a couple of years ago were beautiful hardwood forest and now they look like someone has used them for practice bombing missions. Acres and acres of what once were old grown up fields full of native summer grasses weeds are now used as cow pasture full of fescue.
Predators need to be kept in check for sure. I don't know how much of a roll predators other than man play in healthy adult turkey population. Nests and poults are targeted by many predators. I think nesting and brood cover along with a diverse year round food supply is key to a healthy turkey population in any area.

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NWTF, Pheasants Forever, Quail Forever I am not a deer hunter but I would assume any deer hunting organization all preach on habitat improvement. Must be something to it IMHO.

[Spurs Up]

I have wondered if introducing some new genetic stock would help after many years. Geneticist will tell you that there is enough diversity within the gene pool, but I wonder if new birds might spark some hardiness in the reproductive stock.

Totally agree,...not only from the standpoint of genetic diversification and "hybrid vigor", but also just from the standpoint that the more birds that are there, the greater the potential for recovery from down cycles in populations.  Again, it all comes back around to restoring the aggressive "trap and transplant" attitudes that used to exist and now seem to have faded.

There are plenty of places around the country where turkey depredation issues still exist,...that is, farmers and folks, in general, complaining about too many turkeys.  There is a simple solution for lack of turkeys in some places versus the overabundance of turkeys in others.  It just takes money to implement that solution.

Therein lies the problem.  You want to see more turkeys where populations have declined.  Then 1) pressure your wildlife management agencies to reinstitute "trap and transplant" and 2) "put your money where your mouth is",...that is, establish a funding base for doing that.

Of course, we have to overcome the mentality of "we will just let nature take its course, not intervene, and see what happens".  Sure, we can take that approach,...but why?  We know that "trap and transplant" works tremendously well for establishing wild turkey populations.  Why is it that the same mentality cannot be applied to supplementing existing populations that are struggling?

Some argue against that based on the "carrying capacity" theory,...which is generally applied in circumstances regarding over-population of species due to over-protection or a lack of a sufficient mortality rate.  The carrying-capacity theory just does not apply in many of the areas experiencing turkey declines.  Those declines are being caused by a lack of sufficient "population recruitment",...that is, "nesting success",...over time. 

Again, we have covered all the bases as to why recruitment is failing,...predators and climactic/environmental factors (spring flooding, fires, ag practices).  Those factors are likely to continue over time. 

So what is the obvious solution if we want more turkeys somewhere that their numbers are crashing and there is a continued lack of population recruitment in the form of poult survival?  Put more adult birds in the population by getting back to that "trap 'em and transplant 'em" mentality,...and find a way to pay for it!

  Shouldn't you try to first figure out what's wrong, what's holding them back before you just dump more birds out???   Seems like there is a place and time for restocking but not just because they are on the decline.  At some point, it becomes put-n-take like trout streams in the east.

[owlhoot]

So whats wrong in your opinion Spurs Up?
Some time ago. The 70's and early 80's I have seen stocking turkey programs work very well.
The places were picked by the Missouri conservation department? Some areas were thought by some to be less than ideal.
The birds did well in the top areas along with not so great areas. Now birds are declining in all these areas.
You would imagine that those responsible would have chosen the best habitat before stocking the birds?
You would also imagine that they would not stock or re-stock turkeys in areas loaded with predators, turkey eaters or nest robbers?