Wisconsin's Flock Dwindling

[tal]

 Good point also shatcher. Tennessee has a 6 week season with a 4 gobbler limit. Kentucky is close to Tennessee literally and figuratively. Our habitat and geography is so closely matched but we have exactly half of your season and limits... 3 weeks, 2 gobblers. Why I sometimes doubt the 'wisdom' of our science, or at least what they tell us. Political BS seems to always win out.

[shatcher]

Appreciate that post, tal.  I think the world of my KY neighbors, but my neighbor lets a fellow from KY hunt and he'll kill 3 or 4 birds, good at it.  My point is that he has no skin in the game, hunts the fringes of my farm and may even slip over.  That's just one example.

You can point out the historical season totals to TWRA and all they say is 'we got plenty of turkeys'.  Follow the money.  It's all about selling licenses.

[Rzrbac]

A lot of good posts and thoughts.

I would think states (I'm sure some do) would manage their flocks by geographical location. In the southeast we've flooded for the past 4 or 5 springs. I'm sure many have seen this area on the news. This year wasn't quite so bad but we've had lot of rainfall since the end of season. If birds have hatched and figure most have, the mortality rate has likely been high.

It would stand to reason to manage accordingly by region. Some parts of MO still have thriving flocks as many have likely witnessed this spring. Is it that hard to issue different tags, season dates and harvest limits. Maybe I'm expecting too much from MO.

[tal]

 No fun at all when somebody that knows a little about the game run's loose on ya. My small place was good for 35 years. Land sold around me though and most was leased. FEEDERS! And I'm talking dozens.... Year round.

[owlhoot]

A lot of good posts and thoughts.

I would think states (I'm sure some do) would manage their flocks by geographical location. In the southeast we've flooded for the past 4 or 5 springs. I'm sure many have seen this area on the news. This year wasn't quite so bad but we've had lot of rainfall since the end of season. If birds have hatched and figure most have, the mortality rate has likely been high.

It would stand to reason to manage accordingly by region. Some parts of MO still have thriving flocks as many have likely witnessed this spring. Is it that hard to issue different tags, season dates and harvest limits. Maybe I'm expecting too much from MO.

They have been doing that for deer for years and years. Northern MO has been hit by turkey declines , I know areas that are practically devoid of turkey which in the past were loaded. Other areas where people say that the population is at a lower level than when the birds were stocked. MO has traded turkey before for grouse and pheasant. Now restocking from  areas with high populations in the state to areas that are low makes sense.

[silent tom]

It's certainly not helping when these YouTube channels have shown hunting in Wisconsin pretty hard for the last couple years. Puts a state that may be a little off the radar in peoples minds to go hunt. 

[Chris O]

I think nature runs in cycles maybe not as many this year but in 3 years it might bounce back. I think for my area it was when corn got to be high priced and guys started clearing out their brushy areas so they could gain more crop acres. I can't blame them for wanting to make more money and the DNR doesn't have the money to fund programs to keep some of the farmers from clearing habitat.

[Wisgobbler]

Great post! I'm obviously in Wisconsin. I think it might be time to consider dropping the number of tags available to individual hunters. Something like two tags maximum.


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[Wisgobbler]

I'll also add that I would love to see regulations making it illegal to kill any hen in the spring season. The argument that the legal harvest of a bearded hen is allowed because it gives the shooter some protection in case of a misidentification is weak and pathetic at best. If you can't tell the difference between a Tom and a hen without a beard as visual reference you either need glasses or you shouldn't be turkey hunting. Waterfowl hunters have hunted for many years within the constraints that they must be able to differentiate between a hen mallard and a drake mallard during the early season when the birds are in their eclipse plumage and drakes closely resemble hens. I see no reason why turkey hunters can't be as responsible.  Maybe it's time to petition the proper wildlife personnel.


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[Bay1985]

I'll also add that I would love to see regulations making it illegal to kill any hen in the spring season. The argument that the legal harvest of a bearded hen is allowed because it gives the shooter some protection in case of a misidentification is weak and pathetic at best. If you can't tell the difference between a Tom and a hen without a beard as visual reference you either need glasses or you shouldn't be turkey hunting. Waterfowl hunters have hunted for many years within the constraints that they must be able to differentiate between a hen mallard and a drake mallard during the early season when the birds are in their eclipse plumage and drakes closely resemble hens. I see no reason why turkey hunters can't be as responsible.  Maybe it's time to petition the proper wildlife personnel.


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Exactly,duck hunters are able to identify there targets in a matter of seconds while the target is in flight.Yet apparently some turkey hunters can't tell the difference between a hen or Gobbler standing still at 40 yards or less. We don't need such wandering round the woods with a loaded gun.

[tracker#1]

In Western NY the bird population has dwindled dramatically. On DEC website from 2002 to 2014 the population dropped like a rock. Finally DEC reacted by reducing fall season by two weeks. Why this took so long is another story. There has been radioed banded hen studies with no solid answers. DEC mostly point towards "wet" springs and predication for decline, "poor hatch". Up north 4 hours from here population is good, strong, saw it for myself, further east towards Delaware county good, south, not so good. Seems to be pockets of birds. Hearing PA population down also and hearing something about a study about "west nile" ? Haven't seen the article. Anyway a long time ago, mid 1950's, a DEC wildlife biologist, Fred Evans, started trapping and transferring birds in NY, Allegheny state park. (Google that) They sent birds to Connecticut, Maryland, Massachusetts, Ontario Canada and elsewhere. Your all welcome. So I am now asking our DEC to look into having some birds trapped and transfer and sent back from those states we helped years ago..... What say you ?

[Roost 1]

No fun at all when somebody that knows a little about the game run's loose on ya. My small place was good for 35 years. Land sold around me though and most was leased. FEEDERS! And I'm talking dozens.... Year round.

You should contact your local game warden, it is illegal to feed wildlife in KY from March 1- June 1...

[Spurs]

I'll also add that I would love to see regulations making it illegal to kill any hen in the spring season. The argument that the legal harvest of a bearded hen is allowed because it gives the shooter some protection in case of a misidentification is weak and pathetic at best. If you can't tell the difference between a Tom and a hen without a beard as visual reference you either need glasses or you shouldn't be turkey hunting. Waterfowl hunters have hunted for many years within the constraints that they must be able to differentiate between a hen mallard and a drake mallard during the early season when the birds are in their eclipse plumage and drakes closely resemble hens. I see no reason why turkey hunters can't be as responsible.  Maybe it's time to petition the proper wildlife personnel.


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Exactly,duck hunters are able to identify there targets in a matter of seconds while the target is in flight.Yet apparently some turkey hunters can't tell the difference between a hen or Gobbler standing still at 40 yards or less. We don't need such wandering round the woods with a loaded gun.

Eh, I'd have to disagree with some of the points made here.  I am from SE Arkansas and will say that i have shot more than my fair share of hen mallards to make out a limit.  There are factors that come into play when "wing shooting".  It is almost impossible to distinguish a hen from a drake at first shooting light, stray BBs knocking down doubles, group shooting, etc. 

Same can go for shooting a bearded hen IMO.  One has to remember that ALL turkey hunters have to start somewhere.  Not all were afforded someone to carry them, show them the ropes, and give them a good foundation to build a true wildlife manager.  I have never shot a bearded hen, but I will admit two times it nearly happened.  Both instances were in a situation when I thought a tom was by itself, in thick vegetation, saw a turkey with a beard, and when their head popped into an opening, I had my finger on the trigger.  Now, put someone in that same scenario that doesn't have field experience and didn't have someone (my dad) to educate me in the RIGHT way, I could totally see someone making a mistake.

Now take that mistake; a guy shoots a bearded hen.  As a manager, I would prefer that person place a tag on that bird and shorten their season a little bit.  The effect that will occur will be a guy finding a root wad and discarding of the evidence, all while walking away with the same number of tags.

Again, over regulation isn't the outcome any hunter should be wanting.  We already have enough laws on the book.  People who want to break laws will, there is no amount of regulations that will solve that.  If there isn't a measurable result from a regulation, it is useless...which is exactly what taking away the allowance of shooting bearded hens would be. 

[GobbleNut]

I'll also add that I would love to see regulations making it illegal to kill any hen in the spring season. The argument that the legal harvest of a bearded hen is allowed because it gives the shooter some protection in case of a misidentification is weak and pathetic at best. If you can't tell the difference between a Tom and a hen without a beard as visual reference you either need glasses or you shouldn't be turkey hunting. Waterfowl hunters have hunted for many years within the constraints that they must be able to differentiate between a hen mallard and a drake mallard during the early season when the birds are in their eclipse plumage and drakes closely resemble hens. I see no reason why turkey hunters can't be as responsible.  Maybe it's time to petition the proper wildlife personnel.


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Exactly,duck hunters are able to identify there targets in a matter of seconds while the target is in flight.Yet apparently some turkey hunters can't tell the difference between a hen or Gobbler standing still at 40 yards or less. We don't need such wandering round the woods with a loaded gun.

Eh, I'd have to disagree with some of the points made here.  I am from SE Arkansas and will say that i have shot more than my fair share of hen mallards to make out a limit.  There are factors that come into play when "wing shooting".  It is almost impossible to distinguish a hen from a drake at first shooting light, stray BBs knocking down doubles, group shooting, etc. 

Same can go for shooting a bearded hen IMO.  One has to remember that ALL turkey hunters have to start somewhere.  Not all were afforded someone to carry them, show them the ropes, and give them a good foundation to build a true wildlife manager.  I have never shot a bearded hen, but I will admit two times it nearly happened.  Both instances were in a situation when I thought a tom was by itself, in thick vegetation, saw a turkey with a beard, and when their head popped into an opening, I had my finger on the trigger.  Now, put someone in that same scenario that doesn't have field experience and didn't have someone (my dad) to educate me in the RIGHT way, I could totally see someone making a mistake.

Now take that mistake; a guy shoots a bearded hen.  As a manager, I would prefer that person place a tag on that bird and shorten their season a little bit.  The effect that will occur will be a guy finding a root wad and discarding of the evidence, all while walking away with the same number of tags.

Again, over regulation isn't the outcome any hunter should be wanting.  We already have enough laws on the book.  People who want to break laws will, there is no amount of regulations that will solve that.  If there isn't a measurable result from a regulation, it is useless...which is exactly what taking away the allowance of shooting bearded hens would be.

Great Post!!  ...And it clearly demonstrates the dilemma that wildlife managers face.  Again, to me, the only reasonable solution is to just say,..."Hey, we really don't want you to shoot bearded hens in the spring season (and here's why), but if you do, put your tag on it and take it home".

I also think that wildlife management agencies should have mandatory harvest reporting of both gobblers and bearded hens.  It would be great if we could also get hunters to 'fess up to accidentally shooting beardless hens, as well.  But we all know that is a pipe-dream.

Our hunting group has a standing policy that if someone accidentally shoots a hen (it does happen on rare occasions), we report it.  In forty years or so, there have been a handful of those incidents,...always accidental shootings of unseen hens or "flyers" from the pattern.  Wildlife managers are always appreciative,...although surprised we do it,...and invariably that results in a minimal fine (about $50 bucks),... and with the added benefit of great respect from our CO's and wildlife officials.   

[Ozarks Hillbilly]

A young man I work with sent me this shortly after season closed this year. It touches on several things that have already be discussed in this thread it just add's some numbers pertaining to Missouri. I also added a link to a survey that the MDC did in 2011 that basically stating that the folks taking the survey found turkey population was on the decline but didn't see a need to shorten season or bag limits. To me the whole thing boils down to any given area is only going to be able to support the amount of wild life the habitat will allow. Habitat to me would encompass Food, Cover and Predation.

2019 & 2018 – Worst Missouri Spring Turkey Hunting Seasons in 17 years.
Welcome to the NEW NORMAL - Missouri has become the LOST TURKEY HUNTING MECCA in the early 2000's highlighted in every magazine, outdoor TV show Missouri Spring Season Statewide has fallen off the shelf and has become a secondary thought of a place to travel for turkey hunting.
You won't read this from the Missouri Department of Conservation, National Wild Turkey Federation and the Missouri Media will only regurgitate what they put out.
Don't believe me look up the information and good luck with that because most is not published anymore has to be requested.
Not one thing by itself, but all together will influence major population decline.
1. Price of furs near all-time low, less trappers, more predators, no extended days for trapping. 2. Missouri Wild Hog Population Highest ever estimated 70,000 3. Black Bear Population Highest ever 2012 - 350 today estimated closer to 600. 4. Habitat Lose both Private & Public land Hunters are older, 5. Armadillos population on the rise and expanding north, may not eat eggs but destroy nest in searching for insects and grubs. 6. 17 years of bad hatch due to weather not likely. But some years yes. 7. More efficient fall hunting methods. 8. Fall Hens still being shot - Dead hen can't lay eggs and may not matter when population was higher, but now it does.
Word on the street that the Missouri Biologist and Directors are pushing for an all-day spring season and with no change to fall firearms or archery season for turkeys. Now Some interesting number on Statewide Hunters and Spring Turkey Harvest numbers for past 17 years.
2019 - Turkeys 38,780 - 2nd Lowest Harvest in 17 years 2018 - Turkeys 35,787 - Lowest Harvest in 16 years. 2017 – Turkeys 43,356 2016 – Turkeys 48,374 2015 - Turkeys 48,432 2014 – Turkeys 47,601 2013 – Turkeys 46,141 2012- Turkeys 44,766 2011 – Turkeys 42,220 2010 – Turkeys 46,194 2009 – Turkeys 44,713 2008 - Turkeys 46,134 2007 - Turkeys 48,472 2006 – Turkeys 54,712 2005 - Turkeys 57,743 2004 – Turkeys 60,744 Most Turkey ever killed 2003 – Turkeys 58,421
Extra info
2018 Fall Firearm Turkey Season Summary The 2018 fall firearms turkey harvest total was 2,170, which was 25% less than the 2017 harvest total.
Regional harvest totals were:
• Central (334; -17% from 2017)
• Kansas City (241; -19% from 2017)
• Northeast (251; -3% from 2017)
• Northwest (219; -13% from 2017)
• Ozark (242; -53% from 2017)
• Southeast (267; -27% from 2017)
• Southwest (394; -26% from 2017)
• St. Louis (222; -21% from 2017)
At the statewide scale, the turkey hatches of 2016 and 2017 were tied for the lowest on record since our turkey brood surveys was initiated in 1959
Comparison of average Missouri Trappers Association Fur Auction prices over the last five trapping seasons with a five-year average. Just one example of a Predator - Raccoon
2017-18 $4.86 -26,340 Sold 2016-17 $2.77 - 32,106 Sold 2015-16 $5.84 - 34,758 Sold 2014-15 $7.75 -85,497 Sold 2013-14 $13.04 – 134,715 Sold 2012-13 $20.79 - 138,865 Sold
If you want to understand how that effect population These number are reflective across the board on less predators been taken. 2017 Wild Hog Reports in 45 counties in Missouri per USDA APHIS map and Mark Twain National Forest population estimates of 20,000 to 30,000.
in Missouri for the first season that included crossbows (2016-2017), of the 2,304 turkeys harvested under archery methods, 853 were with crossbows." (2017-2018) of the 2,426 turkeys harvested under archery methods, 45% or 1,113 were with crossbows.
"The Tennessee Fish & Wildlife Commission significant changes in the state's hunting regulations this last fall 2018 - For turkey hunters, the biggest change was banning the killing of hens during the fall season. Every hen that survives through the fall will be around to nest the following spring. The Commission agreed with that logic." But NOT MISSOURI
Did you know that 1974-75 - Bag limit reduced to 1 bird due to poor hatch in 1973. Guess they don't care about that for the last 17 years.

Link to 2011 survey
https://huntfish.mdc.mo.gov/sites/default/files/downloads/2011turkhunterinfo.pdf