Where is this ship headed?

[bobk]

I think people are kind of loosing the premise of the conversation. This isn't about right or wrong or judgement. It is simply this. Are we replacing skill and hunting ability with technology and is modern hunting a good thing moving forward?

all i know is growing up we didnt use blinds if u didnt stay still and bird or deer seen u u didnt get one and after wards u got ear full from the old man lol   over all i think it made me a better hunter you learned the skills  ,, we shot turkey with same 20 ga load we was using for squirrel hunting  got a little old bumped and  ( could carry that gun ) up to 12 ga ,,,  we earned the right to go hunting if u couldnt hold a gun and shoot it u didnt go  ,,,their was no tripods and just pull a trigger ,, food plots was the nearest corn field or  old apple orchard what ever u hunted around and knew where the game was coming to that area lol  ,,,,and sure i have bumped up to better shells and guns  but what i was taught  as a youngster stayed with me   

Well said Mike, I was raised the same way.

[shaman]

 

I think people are kind of loosing the premise of the conversation. This isn't about right or wrong or judgement. It is simply this. Are we replacing skill and hunting ability with technology and is modern hunting a good thing moving forward?

I feel the whole premise is a bit whacked.

First off, turkey hunting in the modern age is a bit of a contrived affair.  Unlike any other hunting sport, the hunter is deliberately handicapped to the point of near-impossibility.  The reason?  If all limitations were removed, turkeys would be extirpated in a few years.  They aren't all that hard to kill. It's just that they're the hardest game on the North American continent if you follow the rules. This is nothing like "The Good Old Days" when, if you wanted a turkey for dinner, you'd open up the door of the cabin and shoot a turkey.

At the farm, I have turkeys in the yard all the time.  I've had them come up to the window while I was taking a nap and peer through the screen. They are not all that hard to call either.  #3 son called up a pair of gobblers on his own with a box call when he was 5.   

What makes them worth hunting is all the limits we put on their hunting-- short seasons, limited firearm choices, etc.  Me? I love it, but I'd be the first to tell you a lot of folks that I know that are good hunters wouldn't want to put up with the nonsense.  A 3.5" shell has the recoil of an elephant gun. You go through all that rigamarole and what do you end up with? A 20 lb dead bird that's as tough as leather if you don't know how to cook it properly.  I know guys that would blow $20K for an African Safari that wouldn't touch a turkey even if I paid for the tag.

Technology can boost success, but only to a point.    Put an electronic caller into the hands of a novice, stick him in a pop-up blind, and give him some decoys, and he's probably not going to be successful, and I don't care how expensive a shotgun you give him, or how much he pays for the ammo.  You can even put him next to a plot of fresh clover or a freshly plowed field-- ain't gonna happen.

So how is it that I consider turkey hunting the hardest thing I have to do in my life?  Simple. Putting it all together and filling 2 tags is an all-consuming affair. I have to be 100% committed or else I'm not even close to being in the game.   Nothing else requires that much concentration and perseverance.

The other thing that is whacked about the premise is that somehow plots and corn piles are somehow the same.  One is legal. The other isn't.  A plot gets you a few more birds, but they'll be out in the center of the field and too busy eating to pay attention to your calls. Bait piles for turkeys make it too easy to even call it hunting.

[Takeaim1st]

This Ship is headed on a course chartered by the influential winds created by the lobbying power of sporting goods manufacturers and their influence on the State Game Commissions. The sails that power the " Ship " are woven from the moral fabric of the participants of this sport.  So then, where is this ship headed ?

[Happy]

I don't think anyone could argue that Mark Drury or Lee Lakosky have overpopulation or unhealthy herds of deer or flocks of turkeys because of food plots and those guys definitely have the food plots.

You don't think the massive outbreaks of EHD the Drury's experienced were more easily fueled by the high amount of deer attracted by their food? I don't have a thing against either of them but I do read a lot.

[Happy]

Put an electronic caller into the hands of a novice, stick him in a pop-up blind, and give him some decoys, and he's probably not going to be successful, and I don't care how expensive a shotgun you give him, or how much he pays for the ammo. 

I bet if you do that with my 8 year old boy his odds have risen considerably.

[shaman]

Put an electronic caller into the hands of a novice, stick him in a pop-up blind, and give him some decoys, and he's probably not going to be successful, and I don't care how expensive a shotgun you give him, or how much he pays for the ammo.

I bet if you do that with my 8 year old boy his odds have risen considerably.

You might be right.  However, our kids have us for models.  I had two things to draw on in making that pronouncement:

1)  The number of folks that have come out with me over the years.  Their biggest problem overall is they can't sit still-- even adults. 

2) My own experience getting into the sport.   I had zero help from anyone knowledgeable until about 5 years in. All I had to go on were a couple of Ben Lee tapes and some magazine articles.   I didn't even see a gobbler out hunting until a year before that.  I didn't get a shot at one until almost a decade on, and I missed. 


The last time I let turkey hunters on my place, it was two guys that had several years of hunting between them.  They took off at 2 in the afternoon and came back before 5 all tuckered out.  They had happened on a flock and spent the afternoon "runnin' and gunnin' 'em"   -- whatever that meant. From their description, I think it meant they'd chased them all over the back half of the property.


There's an old saying: "I shot my first turkey today. It scared the snot out of the people in the frozen food section."


This all brings me back to my beef with the original proposition that turkey-related technology is bad for the sport.  No, what's good for this sport is the fact that Kroger's carries turkey for under $.25/lb.  As long as food remains affordable, we'll still be able to enjoy turkey hunting.

If this all was being done, because someone needed food on the table, then the world would be full of expert turkey hunters-- at least for a little while until the flocks were annihilated again.

I had some lousy neighbors a while back. They couldn't feed themselves or their kids; there were two houses on the road that had sunk into the worst depths of depravity.  Eventually, they were all either evicted, sent to jail or died. The kids were sent to relatives and foster care.  One of the trailers was bulldozed down the hill.  However, before they left, they put a serious dent in all things living.  We had a few seasons where nobody filled tags. 

That's what happens when things go bad.  Folks that grew up in the Depression used to talk about the woods being flat out empty-- not even songbirds or sparrows.  Believe me, we are enjoying a Golden Age of turkey hunting whenever there are flocks to hunt.  I, for one, have seen the "good old days" first hand.  If folks are able to spend money on pop-ups, then things are good.

[GobbleNut]

I had some lousy neighbors a while back. They couldn't feed themselves or their kids; there were two houses on the road that had sunk into the worst depths of depravity.  Eventually, they were all either evicted, sent to jail or died. The kids were sent to relatives and foster care.  One of the trailers was bulldozed down the hill.  However, before they left, they put a serious dent in all things living.  We had a few seasons where nobody filled tags. 

I have a different take on the topic of poaching.  People that poach, no matter what their circumstances, do so because they want to, not because they have to.  That is why we have the societal "safety nets" in this country.  Those folks can get assistance if they want to.  They don't because they want to have an excuse to poach.

Where I live, we have poor folks too,...but you don't see that crap because all of us look out for people doing that sh*t and report them.  It is all a matter of the attitude of the people that live in the region.  If you accept poachers, and let them slide, then they will poach,...and you will see just what you talk about. 

Where I hunt on public lands that are interspersed with private holdings, out of hunting season, game animals rarely show indications that they are being poached.  That is mainly because they are NOT being poached because the people that might consider doing so know that there are lots of eyes watching them,...eyes that are perfectly willing to turn them in to authorities.

You want to stop poaching, then change the attitudes of acceptance by those other folks around those that do it! 

[PSEoutlaw07]

I don't think anyone could argue that Mark Drury or Lee Lakosky have overpopulation or unhealthy herds of deer or flocks of turkeys because of food plots and those guys definitely have the food plots.

You don't think the massive outbreaks of EHD the Drury's experienced were more easily fueled by the high amount of deer attracted by their food? I don't have a thing against either of them but I do read a lot.

First off, plenty of land all in Missouri and Iowa that didn't plant food plots and their deer got hit by some EHD as well.
Second, deer are those guy's life and livelihood. I guarantee they are constantly talking with biologists on diseases among deer. If the biologists were saying that massive outbreaks of EHD were directly related to food plots versus natural browse, then Mark or Lee would stop planting or minimize food plots greatly and strategize other ways to attract deer. EHD does not distinguish between bucks and does, it kills both. Seeing that it kills big bucks, which is their livelihood, I just have a hard time believing they would keep planting as much as they do if it was threatening their livelihood. just my 2 cents

[Happy]

Interesting observations gentlemen. Can't say as I agree with everything but it always good to have other viewpoints expressed. As much as I agree with the thought that hunting industry is hurting things I also have to be thankful that the taxes we pay on sporting items goes towards our wildlife. As far as Fatasseiuss retardus (the Latin definition for poacher) my only input that i have seen many in action and for the most part they are selfish, lazy and without morals, caring only for what they want and willing to destroy everything around them as long as they get what they want. I have known one or two exceptions to this rule. But they were the shoot a deer or two off the back porch for meat type and to be honest while I will never condone their activities, they have a higher moral standard than most people these days.

[shaman]

Please don't confuse me with someone who condones poaching for any reason.

My point was simply that once you have people motivated to take turkeys outside the rules, it doesn't take long for there to be no turkeys.

Just so you know it wasn't just illegal take that was the problem.  These folks caused all sorts of problems.  One of them was that one of the guys would try to raise dogs for money.  He'd get himself a couple of dogs and breed them, and then try to sell the puppies.  Most people didn't want them, so he'd just stop feeding them. Within short order we had large packs of wild dogs roaming the farm.

The adolescent boy liked to shoot deer out the window with his 22 and then let them lay. He was doing it just because he was bored. One of the clan used to hunt to fill other people's freezers for cash.

This was just an outright, in-your-face, fuster-cluck.  At one point, the kids were breaking into my place and other houses on the road just to steal can goods.

I complained bitterly about all this to the authorities-- illegal hunting was not the worst of it.  Very little was done until the  patriarch died and the land passed to an oldest son.  He came in and threw everyone out. It's taken him 8 years to rehab one of the houses.  The other trailer he just bulldozed.

[eggshell]

If you accept poachers, and let them slide, then they will poach,...and you will see just what you talk about. 

Spot on! When I bought my farm the road was known for a deer spotting hotbed. Since I worked for the Division of Wildlife and a Wildlife logo was often seen parked on my land word got out. Also after a few conversations with the neighbors we decided the sh#t was going  to stop on our road. Since there are no connecting roads for at least a mile one way and 5 miles another we could block them in. My house sets high on the hill overlooking the killing fields. When someone shot at least three people would be on the move if we heard it and we'd close the road off. It only took catching 2-3 and all the Sh#t stopped. Still to this day the deer stand and watch you drive by. I overheard a conversation in a coffee shop one day between some out of area hunters and a local scum bag  talking about shining deer. The non locals said something about my road and the local said don't go down there those locals will hang your as# and one of them is a game warden (i was not a game warden, but they thought I was ). So I agree you can stop it. I've had a few test their luck over the years, but to my knowledge none of them ever got a deer out of the hollow. They shot a few, but they never got to pick them up. You live with what you allow.

[LaLongbeard]

Good OL Fred


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[fallhnt]

I don't think anyone could argue that Mark Drury or Lee Lakosky have overpopulation or unhealthy herds of deer or flocks of turkeys because of food plots and those guys definitely have the food plots.

You don't think the massive outbreaks of EHD the Drury's experienced were more easily fueled by the high amount of deer attracted by their food? I don't have a thing against either of them but I do read a lot.

Deer don't get EHD from food or through being around other deer.

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[Happy]

So an insect that infects a deer. Then causes other insects to obtain the virus by biting said deer don't have a way worse effect in a densely populated area. Learn something new every day.

[shaman]

If Fred Bear were alive today. . .

















. . . he'd still be really mad at the guys who tried shove him that crematory oven.


I'm just saying.