7th Species of turkeys?

[Sir-diealot]

One time I shot a really strange bird, had kind of a white head. I don't think he could fly.strange.

Was all the foliage painted orange?

[fallhnt]

What about the "jive turkey"? Or did it go extinct in the 70's?

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[Sir-diealot]

What about the "jive turkey"? Or did it go extinct in the 70's?

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They died out from slipping away to much skin.

[nitro]

Totally incorrect. Davis, please tell me how many Osceola Turkeys from South Florida you have personally examined?? Have you ever placed an Eastern and a South Florida Osceola side by side and compared them?

Genetically, they may be similar ( as are all turkeys) but there are differences. Stick to whatever it is you are an expert at - Osceola turkeys are not it. I would be willing to bet you have never killed a South Florida Gobbler, or even seen one, much less compared them.

Let's hear your evidence..

In fact your statement about "all Florida will eventually have Osceolas" cannot be more wrong. If anything, it will be all Easterns - if the habitat loss and rate of hybridization continues.

I would love to debate this with you.




[/quote]

The only difference in the two is the amount of money that can be asked for one over the other.  Eventually all of Florida will have "pure Osceola" turkeys.
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[nitro]

All I need write to prove the case is - Dr. Lovett Williams

[Rapscallion Vermilion]

I seem to remember reading in a magazine I think Turkey and Turkey Hunter, Turkey Call or maybe Bowhunter Magazine about a 7th species of Turkey

The ones I know.

Eastern
Osceola
Rio Grande
Merriam's
Gould's
And
South Mexican wild turkey

This one I can't recall I seem to remember them talking about it living in a tropical climate and that the male birds call sounded more like that of a pecock than that a male turkey. Does anybody have any clue what I am talking about? I have not found anything online about it and it is driving me nuts because I remember reading about it. It may not have been in the United States but I am unsure of that as well. I am heading back to bed but will look back at this when I get back in the afternoon. Thanks for any help.

In addition to the six you listed, there is another one that was reported as A New Race of Wild Turkey in The Auk in 1938 as gallopavo onusta and inhabiting the western slopes of the Sierr@  Madre in Mexico.  It is also known as Moore's after the leader of the expedition and author of the article in The Auk.  In the article he describes differences between the birds he found and the Merriam's and Gould's turkeys and also noted it was very large bodied and the darkest of the known subspecies.  I haven't found any modern mention of this bird though.

[Sir-diealot]

I seem to remember reading in a magazine I think Turkey and Turkey Hunter, Turkey Call or maybe Bowhunter Magazine about a 7th species of Turkey

The ones I know.

Eastern
Osceola
Rio Grande
Merriam's
Gould's
And
South Mexican wild turkey

This one I can't recall I seem to remember them talking about it living in a tropical climate and that the male birds call sounded more like that of a pecock than that a male turkey. Does anybody have any clue what I am talking about? I have not found anything online about it and it is driving me nuts because I remember reading about it. It may not have been in the United States but I am unsure of that as well. I am heading back to bed but will look back at this when I get back in the afternoon. Thanks for any help.

In addition to the six you listed, there is another one that was reported as A New Race of Wild Turkey in The Auk in 1938 as gallopavo onusta and inhabiting the western slopes of the Sierr@  Madre in Mexico.  It is also known as Moore's after the leader of the expedition and author of the article in The Auk.  In the article he describes differences between the birds he found and the Merriam's and Gould's turkeys and also noted it was very large bodied and the darkest of the known subspecies.  I haven't found any modern mention of this bird though.

Thank you, I am sure we have lost lots of breeds of many animals over the years through early mismanagement/lack of management, this could be a case in point.

[zelmo1]

I am making a new category of turkey to hunt. The Northeastern Nimrod. They are characterized being seen everywhere but where you are hunting. I will be booking hunts for them for next year as you will need this new species to complete your "Slam" and complete your "manhood trial." The hunt will be $2500 for 3 days and a trophy fee of $1000 per bird harvested. That will include room and dinner as well as my guiding services. Please use SAVDUCK as a reference. He bagged a nice bird and gained 5 pounds while he was here, lol. Sorry guys, lol. I just love/hate all turkeys and every one I see, hear or harvest is a treasured memory. Good luck and God Bless , Al Baker 

[daddyduke]

I think it was one of those Northeastern Nimrods I was hunting this year!

[GobbleNut]

Totally incorrect. Davis, please tell me how many Osceola Turkeys from South Florida you have personally examined?? Have you ever placed an Eastern and a South Florida Osceola side by side and compared them?

Genetically, they may be similar ( as are all turkeys) but there are differences. Stick to whatever it is you are an expert at - Osceola turkeys are not it. I would be willing to bet you have never killed a South Florida Gobbler, or even seen one, much less compared them.

Let's hear your evidence..

In an effort to clarify some of this, I think Davis was jokingly stating the obvious, as was I in my remarks.  That is, drawing an arbitrary "line in the sand" to delineate subspecies is pretty silly, at least from a scientific standpoint.  Diversity in a species that results in subspecies delineation is based on genetic differences that are extensive enough to cross the subspecies threshold.  Those genetic differences are almost always caused by geographic barriers that prevent genetic intermixing within a species over time.

In the specific case of the Eastern and Osceola subspecies, it must be assumed that, if indeed they are truly different subspecies, that there was, as some distant time in the past, some geographic barrier that was significant enough to prevent genetic mixing of the two over time.   I'm not sure it is clear that is the case.  It seems quite clear, however, that whatever geographic barriers might have once existed have not been in place for quite some time.  In other words, the Eastern and Osceola subspecies, if applicable, have been "mixing" with each other genetically for so long now that it would be virtually impossible to draw a line in the sand anywhere and declare that on one side is Easterns and on the other is Osceolas.

Could we state that the turkeys in far-south Florida are genetically diverse enough from those in Georgia, Virginia, or even Maine that they meet the subspecies threshold?  Maybe, but that very same standard might potentially be applied to turkeys in Maine and East Texas. 

In terms of visual/appearance differences, those do not a subspecies make.  It is all about genetics,...and as I stated before, genetic studies done back in the 80's, as I recall, determined that the two classified subspecies (Easterns/Osceolas) were so close genetically that it was questionable that they are indeed separate subspecies.  I have not kept up with that debate, however, so perhaps there have been subsequent studies that have further clarified the matter.  I have just not heard of or seen them. 

In terms of appearance/visual differences, separation of populations by distance, combined with subtle "mutations" of genetic material within individual populations, can result in visual traits that would lead one to believe there might be subspecific reasons for those traits.  Again, that does not hold water in terms of separation of subspecies. 

The fact is that there are visual differences within other subspecies that might lead one to think that there is subspecies-level variation rather than merely subspecific coloration differences.  For instance, within the Merriam's subspecies,....which I am most familiar with,...there are coloration differences in various regions and populations that would rival the differences in the southernmost Osceola populations as compared to their more northern cousins. 

In the meantime, the best we can do is accept the subspecies parameters that have been established, however tenuous they might be in terms of science, and go huntin'.   

[guesswho]

You must have stayed at a Holiday Inn last night, North of Dade County. 

[Rapscallion Vermilion]

For those that like pictures, this is what Gobblenut is saying   



It means that Merriam's followed by Gould's are the purest subspecies 

[Sir-diealot]

Regardless of who may or may not be correct it is a fascinating read and shows just how passionate we can be about this creature we all love.

[LI Outdoorsman]

There is a definite difference between a florida Osceola turkey and an Eastern turkey....Osceola's generally are lighter in weight, longer in the beard and sharper in the spur but the primary wings are the most distinguishing factor..true osceolas have darker bands compared to other turkeys.
as far as the occelated goes even though they may resemble a peacock to some they are no doubt a turkey once in hand,,,

[Sir-diealot]

There is a definite difference between a florida Osceola turkey and an Eastern turkey....Osceola's generally are lighter in weight, longer in the beard and sharper in the spur but the primary wings are the most distinguishing factor..true osceolas have darker bands compared to other turkeys.
as far as the occelated goes even though they may resemble a peacock to some they are no doubt a turkey once in hand,,,

They really are a neat bird (Occelated) and have some really fancy plumage.