Hevi-13 #7 Penetration????

[Gobble!]

, is 1.5" in ballistic gel supposed to be the magic number equating to a turkey head and neck?

they guarantee a kill with that penetration. Anyting more then 1" is good enough for me.

[goblr77]

, is 1.5" in ballistic gel supposed to be the magic number equating to a turkey head and neck?

they guarantee a kill with that penetration. Anyting more then 1" is good enough for me.

Just curious, where do the Hevi-13 #7's traveling at 1090 start to drop below 1" with the formula you're using?

[bbcoach]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what we're talking about when we discuss the killing effect of any load is not only penetration but pattern density + energy delivered.  So when we compare any load to another it isn't just about how far a pellet penetrates but how many you put in the killing zone along with the energy transfer.  So if we are comparing Hevi #6's to 7's we should have more pellets on target with the 7's, which equates to more energy transfer but with slightly less penetration at 40 yards.

[Neill_Prater]

I'd been wondering about all this myself, especially since I'm contemplating trying some Hevi-13 shells. Many years ago, probably in the late 80's, I recall reading an article, where someone had figured out the foot pounds of energy required to consistently, and that is the key word, penetrate the skull and spinal column of an adult gobbler. If I recall correctly, the maximum range for CONSISTENT penetration with #6 lead was figured mathematically to be 39 yards, which prompted me to switch to #5 lead, which I shot for many years with great results. I'm pretty sure this was before the common use of high velocity turkey loads, which probably would increase that distance by several yards.

Now, we all know in the real world, things don't always go according to Hoyle. I recall a good friend of mine dropping a turkey at 63 paces with number #6 shot about 1980, long before HV shells were on the market, but again, that word consistent is of utmost importance. I have no qualms shooting #7's, as long as I know they will consisently kill beyond the maximum range at one should ever shoot anyway. I'm no physicist, but I also think some of these discrepancies in penetration may have to do with the frontal area of the individual shot themselves. The smaller the shot, the less resistance going through most mediums. Neill

[Old Gobbler]

I'd been wondering about all this myself, especially since I'm contemplating trying some Hevi-13 shells. Many years ago, probably in the late 80's, I recall reading an article, where someone had figured out the foot pounds of energy required to consistently, and that is the key word, penetrate the skull and spinal column of an adult gobbler. If I recall correctly, the maximum range for CONSISTENT penetration with #6 lead was figured mathematically to be 39 yards, which prompted me to switch to #5 lead, which I shot for many years with great results. I'm pretty sure this was before the common use of high velocity turkey loads, which probably would increase that distance by several yards.

Now, we all know in the real world, things don't always go according to Hoyle. I recall a good friend of mine dropping a turkey at 63 paces with number #6 shot about 1980, long before HV shells were on the market, but again, that word consistent is of utmost importance. I have no qualms shooting #7's, as long as I know they will consisently kill beyond the maximum range at one should ever shoot anyway. I'm no physicist, but I also think some of these discrepancies in penetration may have to do with the frontal area of the individual shot themselves. The smaller the shot, the less resistance going through most mediums. Neill

I think you are referencing the Winchester study they claimed a pellet with  2.6 foot pounds will break a head or neck -

a #6 lead with a muzzle vel. of 1200 fps almost made it to 40 yards like you stated

#5 lead almost 50 yards

and a #4 lead 60 yards --

[goblr77]

, is 1.5" in ballistic gel supposed to be the magic number equating to a turkey head and neck?

they guarantee a kill with that penetration. Anyting more then 1" is good enough for me.

Just curious, where do the Hevi-13 #7's traveling at 1090 start to drop below 1" with the formula you're using?

Assuming they are 12 gm/cc (not 13) and that they are truly size 7...60 yds.

Thanks

[hookedspur]

I'm here to tell you that Hevi-13 #7 loads will penetrate better than lead 5's from what I have seen. 

[Neill_Prater]

You're correct.  Energy Density is what determines penetration.  Not just energy.  ED is KE divided by cross sectional area. 

Ed Lowry et al did a study shooting mallard ducks years ago and came up with an ED number of 235 that was required to kill a duck with 95% certainty. 

Lead 6s have a slightly better ED than Hevi-13 7s, but the hevi 7s put up a better pattern which is the other half of the lethality story.

Federal is REALLY missing the boat by insisting on that blasted Flite Control wad and relatively light payloads in 12 gauge.  With that 15g/cc shot they carry WAY more Energy Density than the hevi 7s. 

How many grams/cc is lead? Neill

[ILIKEHEVI-13]

, is 1.5" in ballistic gel supposed to be the magic number equating to a turkey head and neck?

I don't know what the number is.  There's a big difference between a carefully executed scientific study to arrive at the penetration required for a CERTAIN kill, vs a subjective experience showing a bird CAN be killed by X amount of penetration.

If you go by the Lowry et al study on 95% kill certainty on ducks, the 235 ED they came up with varies anywhere from 1.4" to 3" of ballistics gel penetration depending on other factors.

I personally don't think 1" is sufficient for a certain turkey kill.  Because if it was, then #9 TSS at 1100 fps MV would be certain to kill a turkey at 99 yds every time, and lead #8s at 1200 fps would be good for turkeys up to 45 yds every time.  And I don't believe that is the case.

I think 1.5 to 1.75" is more realistic.

Hal, I think 1.5-1.75 is overly conservative. That 235 ED for killing ducks was based on body shots. IMO it takes a lot less ED to kill a turkey with a headshot than it does a duck with a body shot.

Being aware of the 72 yd kill this year with T9s, the computer predicts 1.35" of penetration at that distance. It would be hard to argue that that number is insufficient since several pellets completely pentrated one half of the breast, the breastbone and almost all the way through the other breast. I realize that TSS is somewhat of a special case, but I have come to the conclusion that 1.25" of gel penetration is plenty. Of course, pattern density plays a huge role as range increases.

And I agree totally.  I have been telling guys that doubted the Hevi-13 #7's at 50yds or farther.  I have no doubt in my mind if you send a load of Hevi-13 #7's on track towards a gobblers head and neck at 60yds and the pattern density is there at that range say 80 to 100 shot in a 10" and it hits the vitals centered with that type of pattern the bird is going to die.  Now that's a bit far to shoot one, but if the density from these loads are there at that range to do the job you will be amazed what this small shot will do.  Like I said I shot plum through the breast with some shot on a 24lb bird last spring at probably farther than 45yds, but we will call it 45yds just so I don't overexaggerate it.  I would say that most shot that hit the head and neck went completely through the opposite side.  Now I can't see for the life of me 15 more yards putting this shot to where it wouldn't at least still kill a turkey in the head and neck area.  





And just so no one thinks I work for Hevi-Shot or sell the stuff...lol...here's the actual picture of where the pattern hit the turkey in part of the upper breast.  



Here's the opposite side so you can see for yourself why I am saying what I say here.  Pictures speak more than gelatin does.  



And here is the 23 shot I dug out of the turkey breast.  Most burried in the bird fairly deep.  

[ILIKEHEVI-13]

And you can see on the last picture 2 of those clump together actual pellets in these loads that were probably as big as a lead #4 or #5 pellet.  Now that's just on 23 shot.  Imagine how many more of these are actually in this load of almost 570-600 shot from what I typically count on cardboard from these loads.

[goblr77]

If 1.5"-1.75" was realistic it means that the MAX killing range with Hevi #7's @ 1090fps would be 36.5 yards. I've seen the damage first hand at what these loads will do well beyond that range.

[ILIKEHEVI-13]

If 1.5"-1.75" was realistic it means that the MAX killing range with Hevi #7's @ 1090fps would be 36.5 yards. I've seen the damage first hand at what these loads will do well beyond that range.

I know I wouldn't have wanted to been the gobbler you toasted with a pattern like this coming my way and hitting me in the noggin!   



[attachment deleted by admin]