This year its going down to the wire.......

[BC]

I'm indifferent about whether multiple-bearded turkeys are counted as such or not.  The fact is, however, that allowing multi-beards to be scored gives a decided advantage to those living in areas where genetic tendencies toward multiple beard development are more likely to occur.  Those that make the statement that everybody that participates in the contest has the same opportunity to kill multiple-bearded gobblers is just plain wrong.  There are places where multiple-bearded gobblers are fairly common,...and there are places where they are unheard of.

An analogy would be to say that any hunter that kills a turkey with white tips on the tail feathers gets an extra fifteen points in the contest.  The guys that hunt Merriams or Goulds turkeys would love that rule,...but I doubt it would go over very well with the Eastern and Osceola hunters.  Yet, both white tail fans and multiple beards are both genetic traits that occur regularly in some places and very rarely or never in others. 

The bottom line is that the contest should be as fair as possible for everybody involved.  Allowing multi-beards in it automatically throws that fairness off before the contest even begins.

You can get in your truck or car and go hunt anywhere in the United States..... just like I and everybody else can. What about the midwestern birds average weight being 5 - 8 lbs heavier than your average southern bird? What about Easterns and Osceolas generally having longer spurs than most true Merriams (not the hybrids)? Not every aspect of this contest is going to be on a level playing field. The only way to do that is have sub contests for every single sub species which would be tiresome to keep up with and ridiculous to start with. If it bothers you that bad then be diverse in the members you choose and have teamates from all over the country who hunt in different environments. People are wanting to change a nationwide contest because of their local hunting conditions and that logic is completely flawed. It does nothing but punish the hunter who puts in the time and effort and travels to multiple states for a chance at harvesting a bird of a lifetime. It's never going to be 100% fair, but telling a man he can't count all of his score because someone is red assed because they can't kill a multi beard is stupid.

For the record, I have never killed very many multi beards. I would guess in my life I have killed over 250 birds with the majority of that number coming from the state of Alabama. If I remember correctly I can count on one hand the number of multi beards I have killed in Alabama. Now I've killed several multi beards in Nebraska. I killed three in one year up there several years back. If you don't have them in your area, you can always go to them.

[reflexl]

Well said BC. Each bird has unique features that would allow them to score better in some aspect than others. I aint fighting anyone but the fact remains that if you live where 14" beards are common and don't like it because someone else lives where birds weigh 28lbs then you have went outside the bounds of fairness. Let them score what they score......

[GobbleNut]

The only way to do that is have sub contests for every single sub species which would be tiresome to keep up with and ridiculous to start with.

I suggested an easy way to do just that a few years ago that would have evened the playing field for everybody based on where they hunt,...and that suggestion fell on deaf ears.

If it bothers you that bad then be diverse in the members you choose and have teamates from all over the country who hunt in different environments.

This is exactly why the contest should really be made up of randomly selected teams every year.  That way no team could be loaded up with selected team members from states where inherent biases exist in the subspecies or genetics that exist in certain regions that make gobblers from those areas score more in the NWTF scoring system.

For the record, I have never killed very many multi beards. I would guess in my life I have killed over 250 birds with the majority of that number coming from the state of Alabama. If I remember correctly I can count on one hand the number of multi beards I have killed in Alabama.

For the record, I have hunted turkeys in New Mexico for fifty years now.  I have seen thousands of Merriams gobblers from here.  Out of those thousands, I have seen ONE live, multiple-bearded gobbler in those fifty years out of several hundred hunters that I have hunted with.  By your own admission, you have killed five times as many multi-beards in your home state than our several hundred hunters have even SEEN in fifty years of hunting here. 

....Now, whose reasoning is flawed?   

[davisd9]

I do not care for the rule.  It takes away from the uniqueness and trophy quality of a harvested bird.  When we walk up to a bird anyone has the opportunity to flip over a bird and see multiple beards, even if it is once every 15 years.  I live in SC, I have never killed a multi bearded bird and to my knowledge I have never seen one, but why should that take away from someone else's trophy?  I will hopefully kill one sooner or later, but if not oh well.

[chcltlabz]

You guys realize there is no prize for this contest right?  It was supposed to be for fun.

Suck the fun out of it like this, and you will quickly lose participants.  I guess then it will be easy to win for those that got their way at least.

[GobbleNut]

What?!!  You're telling me that there are no prizes,...and this is supposed to be for fun?!
No way! ...This is serious business!   

Of course, you are right.  In my first post, my first comment was that I'm indifferent about it.  I do, however, think that the contest should be set up so that everybody that wants to get in is participating in a manner that makes them relevant,...as much as possible. 

Personally, I think the single-longest-beard rule helps to level the playing field for everybody to a greater degree than any other single element in the scoring.  I think the rule change this year and the resulting closeness in the final team scores of the contest pretty much support that theory.

These discussions in no way need to be argumentative.  It should be all of our goals to make this silly little contest as fair to everyone as we possibly can.  That is my intent,...and the only reason I am here discussing it,.....other than the fact that the season is over and we all need something to keep our minds off of that.   

[BC]

The only way to do that is have sub contests for every single sub species which would be tiresome to keep up with and ridiculous to start with.

I suggested an easy way to do just that a few years ago that would have evened the playing field for everybody based on where they hunt,...and that suggestion fell on deaf ears.

If it bothers you that bad then be diverse in the members you choose and have teamates from all over the country who hunt in different environments.

This is exactly why the contest should really be made up of randomly selected teams every year.  That way no team could be loaded up with selected team members from states where inherent biases exist in the subspecies or genetics that exist in certain regions that make gobblers from those areas score more in the NWTF scoring system.

For the record, I have never killed very many multi beards. I would guess in my life I have killed over 250 birds with the majority of that number coming from the state of Alabama. If I remember correctly I can count on one hand the number of multi beards I have killed in Alabama.

For the record, I have hunted turkeys in New Mexico for fifty years now.  I have seen thousands of Merriams gobblers from here.  Out of those thousands, I have seen ONE live, multiple-bearded gobbler in those fifty years out of several hundred hunters that I have hunted with.  By your own admission, you have killed five times as many multi-beards in your home state than our several hundred hunters have even SEEN in fifty years of hunting here. 

....Now, whose reasoning is flawed?   

Yours.

Are you handcuffed to the state of New Mexico?

[BC]

What?!!  You're telling me that there are no prizes,...and this is supposed to be for fun?!
No way! ...This is serious business!   

I hear this a lot. So tell me if this is an Aw shucks it's just for us good ol boys to have fun with and enjoy, then why are there so many accusations of cheating and whining and complaining year in and year out. Why are there people pouring over picture threads just itching to find something to PM Shannon and complain about. Why the rule changes to handicap things?

It's because it's not just for fun. It's a competition for bragging rights that gets everyones juices flowing. Everyone who enters this contest does so to win it. Participation trophies are for T ball and beauty pageants.

Personally, I think the single-longest-beard rule helps to level the playing field for everybody to a greater degree than any other single element in the scoring.  I think the rule change this year and the resulting closeness in the final team scores of the contest pretty much support that theory.

No. The Tenn Dream Team plainly stated that they had several multi beards that severly impacted their score and they finished third. By the NWTF scoring system they might have won the whole thing were their birds allowed to count. Maybe the Gods of Thunder had some double beards as well, I don't know. I just know that a bird should score what he scores and that should be the contest entry. How are you going to feel when you kill a stud multi beard that scores 120 points but you have to count it as a 54 point bird in the contest? How do you propose to handle the other physical variations between the four species.

[chcltlabz]

But you weren't even in the contest, remember?  You quit because of all the drama, and I'll probably do the same now.

[GobbleNut]

Are you handcuffed to the state of New Mexico?

I hunt a number of different states each spring, but I do understand that many, if not most, of the members on this site do not have that luxury.  I also understand the fact that many of those members have zero chance of killing a multiple-bearded gobbler where they hunt, while others regularly hunt where multi-beards are a fairly common occurrence. 

Contrary to what you seem to think, the NWTF scoring system does not put single-bearded gobblers and multiple-bearded gobblers in the same classification.  Why is it that anybody thinks they can justify doing it in this contest?

I agree that multiple-bearded gobblers are a unique trophy.  I suggested a few years ago that we award an extra point to a gobbler's score for each additional beard it had.  Again, that suggestion fell on deaf ears. 

I don't give a flying rat's patootie if we go back to the old multi-beard scoring system for the contest.  If we do, it is a fact that it will give certain people,...and their teams,...a decided advantage.  There is no question about that,...and it is not fair to the vast majority of the members here that participate in the contest. 

[GobbleNut]

No. The Tenn Dream Team plainly stated that they had several multi beards that severly impacted their score and they finished third. By the NWTF scoring system they might have won the whole thing were their birds allowed to count. Maybe the Gods of Thunder had some double beards as well, I don't know. I just know that a bird should score what he scores and that should be the contest entry.

Thank you.  You just proved my point.  The Tennessee team,...which I assume was made up of mostly Tennessee guys,...had several multi-beards.  I would bet there were a number of teams in the contest that had none at all.  What does that little tidbit tell us?  It tells us that guys that hunt in Tennessee are much more likely to kill multi-beards than most of the rest of us. 

Sure, let's go back to the old system.  That way we can just declare the teams with the guys that hunt where the genetics for multiple-beards exist as the winners right off the bat and the rest of us can just watch from the sidelines. 

How are you going to feel when you kill a stud multi beard that scores 120 points but you have to count it as a 54 point bird in the contest? How do you propose to handle the other physical variations between the four species. [

Actually, I did have one of those in the contest last year,...but I still feel they should not be allowed.  As I stated earlier, I also suggested that we include modifiers in the scoring for the different subspecies and where they were taken.  Pretty simple really, but once again, nobody wants to listen.....

....This is good, friendly discussion, by the way....

[BC]

....This is good, friendly discussion, by the way....

I agree.... this is friendly discussion, and I'm glad it hasn't went south. I do respect what you are saying, I just don't agree with it.

[BC]

But you weren't even in the contest, remember?  You quit because of all the drama, and I'll probably do the same now.

This is true, but it doesn't mean I won't ever be in it again. That is unless Shannon bans me for bringing this whole discussion up to begin with. 


I just think if a man kills a 100 point bird by NWTF standards, I think he ought to be able to enter it.

[GobbleNut]

   I see nothing wrong in discussing things that might improve the site and make things more enjoyable for us members,...as long as we all stay civil with each other about it. 

There are pros and cons about the multiple-beard scoring issue.  There are good reasons on both sides for allowing them or not.  Perhaps we should just set up a poll and let all the members vote on it.  Whichever side wins in the poll, that's the way we go,...and we leave it at that.

In the end, it is not all that important anyway,....but it does give those of us that are interested in discussing such things something to talk about in the off-season.   

[reflexl]

Boys one thing about men is we can agree to disagree. Just so it is very clear how I feel if another team had 6 birds with multiple  beards and won I would say more power to them. If another team had 5 birds with 2" spurs and won the whole bag of marbles I would also say more power to them. It is All about fun. I have no complaints about the way Shannon has handled this. I still disagree with the longest beard only but I am proud of our third place finish regardless just as I know other teams  were proud of their finishes.