NY numbers

[2much2loud]

Never thought too much about until lately... If somebody could tell the hens to find a nesting spot in the timber they would be a little better off.... Every day since the end of May there have been a few hens hanging around a grassy field on the way to work.... I bet my last dollar there was at least one nest in that field... It was plowed last Friday and haven't seen a thing out there..... The wife's grandfather cut his hay field Saterday and kicked a hen off a nest.... Luckily he seen it and left the edge where the nest was uncut for now

[mikejd]

Never thought too much about until lately... If somebody could tell the hens to find a nesting spot in the timber they would be a little better off.... Every day since the end of May there have been a few hens hanging around a grassy field on the way to work.... I bet my last dollar there was at least one nest in that field... It was plowed last Friday and haven't seen a thing out there..... The wife's grandfather cut his hay field Saterday and kicked a hen off a nest.... Luckily he seen it and left the edge where the nest was uncut for now

I agree, Hens are not great nest hiders.

[alloutdoors]

If what your saying is true. Then what it sounds like to.me is that the WTF
replenished the states with more birds then the environment could sustain.
weather it be nesting, habitat or available food sources. And this took a few years to regulate to a self sustaining flock.

Not exactly. The number of birds released in any given state would have been in the hundreds, or maybe low thousands at most, so there was no surplus caused by stocking. However, the birds were released into what amounted to virgin habitat with seemingly unlimited resources. This allowed the population to sky rocket. Now eventually you hit the ceiling with regards to carrying capacity, but such rapid growth has a sort of momentum too it where you are going to overshoot carrying capacity for a short time before things correct themselves.

That said, populations have continued to trend down even beyond what would be expected. In my area I think it's largely changes in agriculture. Lots of small dairy farms have gone out of business and when the demand for corn shot up for ethanol production people started planting it everywhere including reclaiming old fallow fields and switching lots of hay fields to corn.

[ctwny1]

Again the DEC only tells you what they want you to know and nothing else. Nobody in DEC want to talk about Predator Control. It's always the hunters that are the problem. DEC will say and do anything to cut or stop us from hunting. How many turkey do they think predators take during an time frame? Why is it we have a season on fox,coyote,raccoons etc? With a season that means their trying to raise them. Nobody in DEC want to or will address this issue.

There needs to be some very HARD questions asked of DEC on this subject matter. Have to remember that the DEC is only care takers for us the people. They don't OWN the refuges but they act as if they do.

Do I believe the turkey numbers are down? Yes I do because we've had some hard winters and wet Springs and we need to take action, but not all against the hunters.

[troutfisher13111]

Again the DEC only tells you what they want you to know and nothing else. Nobody in DEC want to talk about Predator Control. It's always the hunters that are the problem. DEC will say and do anything to cut or stop us from hunting. How many turkey do they think predators take during an time frame? Why is it we have a season on fox,coyote,raccoons etc? With a season that means their trying to raise them. Nobody in DEC want to or will address this issue

Can you explain this? I am not sure I agree at all.

[alloutdoors]

Ctwny1, the first line of DEC's mission statement: "To conserve, improve and protect New York's natural resources and environment..."

Our mission is not to create a turkey and deer making factory as you seem to think it should be. Predators, whether you like it or not, are one of the above mentioned natural resources. They are a renewable resource and are managed as such.

DEC is a huge agency but many of the people directly responsible for managing game species within the state are hunters themselves. The head of the Bureau of Wildlife is as avid a turkey hunter as anyone on this forum. Declining hunter numbers are a major concern because Pittman-Robertson money is the major source of funding for fisheries and wildlife programs. Your conspiracy theory is pure fantasy.

[VaTuRkStOmPeR]

Ctwny1, the first line of DEC's mission statement: "To conserve, improve and protect New York's natural resources and environment..."

Our mission is not to create a turkey and deer making factory as you seem to think it should be. Predators, whether you like it or not, are one of the above mentioned natural resources. They are a renewable resource and are managed as such.

DEC is a huge agency but many of the people directly responsible for managing game species within the state are hunters themselves. The head of the Bureau of Wildlife is as avid a turkey hunter as anyone on this forum. Declining hunter numbers are a major concern because Pittman-Robertson money is the major source of funding for fisheries and wildlife programs. Your conspiracy theory is pure fantasy.

Your deer management is a joke.  Your turkey hunting is quickly becoming a reminiscing story of "what once was." You released the fisher.....

You speak of declining hunter numbers which means there is less pressure on the resource yet the turkey numbers are still decreasing at an alarming rate.....

Yea, you guys are quite the exemplary conservation agency ?

[turkeyfeathers]

Wasn't aware we released fisher here in NYS. Buddy works waayyy up north in NY and fisher have been thick there forever. Just recently they have been working there way down this way. First fisher tracks found where I hunt this past winter. Pretty sure it wasn't released here.
Now mountain lions released....that's a different story

[alloutdoors]

More fantasy, nobody released fisher. Hunter numbers are declining everywhere and we are far from the only state seeing declining turkey numbers so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make but you are failing at it. As pointed out in this thread, NY is taking an active approach to investigating that decline and looking for workable solutions. I guess we should just scrap that in favor of your armchair quarterbacking.

Habitat is key but most of that is in private hands. What's your grand solution there? Maybe you would like the state to seize all private property so it can be managed for game?

For what it's worth I'll agree that I don't like how we manage deer, but that program is still heavily influenced by "old school" hunters with a "brown it's down" mindset who want to blast the first spike horn they see on opening morning. Most polls show that a majority of NY hunters still agree with that philosophy too.

[mikejd]

Wasn't aware we released fisher here in NYS. Buddy works waayyy up north in NY and fisher have been thick there forever. Just recently they have been working there way down this way. First fisher tracks found where I hunt this past winter. Pretty sure it wasn't released here.
Now mountain lions released....that's a different story

I have been hunting the adirondacks since im a boy and have always seen them.
Recently the turkey population has grown up that way. However I attribute this to warm winters over the past 15 yrs. I will know for sure once we get rolling this fall.

[CrustyRusty]

Aren't coyotes an invasive species in NY?  I know pigs are and the state seems to want to eradicate them.  I understand there are more than just coyote as predators, but I can only imagine a longer season, like all year coyote hunting, May help some. 

Outdoors quote (Predators, whether you like it or not, are one of the above mentioned natural resources. They are a renewable resource and are managed as such.)
 

[darn2ten]

Boys, I promise this problem is not confined to the NE. I live in southern middle Tennessee and we are seeing the same declines. Back in the 90's to early 2000's this was a turkey hunters dream. Use to be able to go out and hear at least 10 birds at daylight. Now some of those same areas your lucky if you hear 1 or 2 birds. These are areas that I hunt regularly and have seen the steady decline over about a decade. The county next to me has hwy. 64 running right thru the middle of it. It is a large county and the turkeys south of that hwy. have all but disappeared. The TWRA has been holding meetings over there trying to get input from land owners and hunters. I have a couple of theories, though that's just what they are, who knows. I have a good friend who's uncle owns a farm in the south part of that county. He found a dead hen in a field one morning that was fresh and had no visible signs of what had killed it. Him being a turkey hunter himself and knowing about the meetings contacted the TWRA. They came and took the bird for testing, and said the results came back for "black leg". Black leg is a disease chickens get. Now around here after fertilizer prices really went up about a decade ago many farmers went to spreading chicken manure instead of fertilizer to cut cost. Just a coincidence, I don't know. The place I talked about hearing 10 birds a morning years ago use to be regularly coon hunted, they haven't been really hunted in the last 7-8 years now. There is probably less than half the coon hunters here as there were 10 to 15 years ago, and our coon population has exploded. I have also noticed a increase in the yote and skunk population in this same time frame. Also now have armadillos that we didn't use to have, saw my first one around here about 3 years ago. They have spread from the west and spread pretty dang quick. The last couple of years the hatch has been pretty good, this year the weather has been pretty rough, storms and quite a bit of wet weather. Last but certainly not least is our ridiculous fall season bag limits. Our state wide spring bag limit is 4 bearded turkeys. My county also has a 3 bird either sex fall limit, so I could legally take 7 birds. Some of the counties around me have a 6 bird fall limit, that's just crazy to me. At least the county to the west of me and two more counties to it's west have cancelled their fall seasons. I'm sure it's a combination of factors that is causing declines, I just hope we as a whole north and south can get a handle on the situation before its critical.

[Rick Howard]

Aren't coyotes an invasive species in NY?  I know pigs are and the state seems to want to eradicate them.  I understand there are more than just coyote as predators, but I can only imagine a longer season, like all year coyote hunting, May help some. 

Outdoors quote (Predators, whether you like it or not, are one of the above mentioned natural resources. They are a renewable resource and are managed as such.)

No one is sure on how coyote got here or if they have always been.  However, it is most likely based on pretty extensive research that Coyote migrated from Canada into the Adirondacks in the early 1900's.  (the first sightings were recorded in the 20's but i cant remember for certain)  Coyote spread south through the rest of the state pretty slowly.  I just read an article that was published in 1971 by The Hunting Preview (I think).  The article was tittled ""Little Wolf" spreading To Southern Tier".  According to that article the sightings in the southern tier had been going on for a decade. 

A fun side note and a real kicker is their genetics.  Based on the research of Jonathan Way, among others, Coyote in NY are a hybrid of coyote and wolf.  The larger size is in part attributed to the hybridization of eastern wolf and coyote. They coined the term Coy-Wolf.  Not really a Good name as the amount of wolf genetic is small.  I would theories that the extra size is more about harsh climate then wolf genetic.  I'm betting the wolf genetic gets more and more removed with each successive breading.  The CBC recently put out a documentary that was okay.  I forget the name but it had Coy Wolf in the title.  I am sure an Internet search will lead you to it if your interested in watching. 

It is my opinion, which is based on actual research, the number of coyote and size of coyote in NY is smaller than popular belief.   I doubt they have serious effect on turkey populations.  I have been wrong in the past though.  Research I base my opinions from: my own, DEC, and independent studies by private individuals and universities ESF, UMASS, Pen State. 

Hunting coyote has not worked at limiting numbers in the past.  Either has trapping or poisoning or released mange.....  If the ground can hold coyote....  Then  try as you may they are there to stay. 

I think predation helps build stronger populations of prey species.  So long as predators are managed (not eradicated).  NY has a season on coyote which means they are managed.  I agree the season should be longer starting September 1.  For different reasons though.  Since the deer seasons starts earlier now....  It limits early hunting opprotunity because of centerfire restrictions... Or land owners not wanting you to hunt coyote during deer season. 

Lol My wife says I have OCD "Obsessed Coyote Disorder".   After reading what I just typed.... It's looking like she is correct.  I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I'm just offering up info.  I even tried to be funny. 

[troutfisher13111]

One thing I have noticed is that larger predator populations also coincide with large prey populations. I feel that there is definitely a bigger factor in low turkey numbers than predators.

[CrustyRusty]

Excellent post itzDirty, I don't find it argumentative at all.  I'm a big predator hunter myself and always looking for a way to lengthen that season