Letter from Spook Spann

[GobbleNut]

The fact is, as has been stated before, that vague regulations like this one pretty much make every single person that enters the woods illegal in some way, shape, or form.  These types of regulations are essentially unenforceable.  They are in place to give law enforcement agencies the flexibility to go after individuals that they know are breaking the law, but can't get any real hard evidence on for whatever reason. 

As I understand it, Spann poached a trophy whitetail buck off of a neighbor's property that he was not licensed to hunt on,...and he got caught.  Law enforcement is now teaching him a lesson by enforcing a regulation that they would probably never use against the average, law-abiding citizen. 

He took a chance and caved-in to the temptation of killing a trophy animal illegally for the sake of glorifying himself in the public eye.  He is now paying the price for that indiscretion.

[cuppednlocked]

So in NC the way as described above if you are tagged out you cannot enter the woods with friends and family an call a bird in for them. This would be considered an action or attempt to take game as it is stated in the regulations digest.

No, that is not correct.  The tag is not what allows you to hunt, it is merely the method to track possession.

If you are properly licensed, and have no legal judgement that prevents you from "hunting", there is no reason you cannot participate by calling, putting out decoys, etc.  The circumstances change if you are also toting a gun and have filled your tags.

If calling, setting decoys, etc was not "hunting" why would a guide need a hunting license???

[J Hook Max]

 I don't know the facts in this case and will not comment on his guilt or innocence. I hunt and guide in both Tennessee and Alabama and I do know the law in both Alabama in in Tennessee. The laws are basically the same. If you are trying to call in turkeys, you are considered hunting.
It was said that he was on probation for a deer violation and that his camerman turned him in for baiting turkeys. That would not surprise me. I have turkey hunted for forty five years and have hunted with some of the very best in the country. Those who kill an unusually high number of Eastern gobblers are usually doing something illegal or unethical , be it baiting or tresspassing or sometimes even both. Even the best go home empty handed quite often unless they are doing something not quite right. Just my opinion , been at it too long.

[HogBiologist]

Why does Sportsmans Chanel still air his show?  It was on yesterday.  I don't get it.  Do they know what is going on or do we need to email them this?

[BowBendr]

So in NC the way as described above if you are tagged out you cannot enter the woods with friends and family an call a bird in for them. This would be considered an action or attempt to take game as it is stated in the regulations digest.

No, that is not correct.  The tag is not what allows you to hunt, it is merely the method to track possession.

If you are properly licensed, and have no legal judgement that prevents you from "hunting", there is no reason you cannot participate by calling, putting out decoys, etc.  The circumstances change if you are also toting a gun and have filled your tags.

If calling, setting decoys, etc was not "hunting" why would a guide need a hunting license???

IMHO, I disagree. Blueridgegobbler is correct in his questioning. While you are correct in stating that a tag is only for possessional purposes, you must possess a valid tag to even be in the woods.

From pg. 42 of the 2013-14 NCWRC reg digest:
"Manner of taking"
Definition of take : "To TAKE is defined as ALL OPERATIONS during, immediately preparatory and immediately subsequent to an attempt , whether successful or not, to capture, kill, pursue, hunt or otherwise harm or reduce to possession any fisheries resource or wildlife resource."

If you are out calling for someone (trying to reduce to possession) and you don't have a tag, you will get a ticket for "TAKING" turkeys without possession of a valid tag.

Another example:
I have a friend that shined a light on a field during deer season, after 11 p.m. one night, in a county where shining was legal up until 11 p.m. He possessed no weapon of any kind in the vehicle, he was truly out looking at deer...albeit, illegally after 11 p.m.
He was not given a ticket for just shining a light, the ticket said he "TOOK" deer with the aide of a spotlight...even though there was no gun, and no shot was fired...and it held for the state in court.....

If I didn't have a tag, I wouldn't dare be out there hunting, calling, or puttin' out dekes....done seen too many people go down that road in NC in 35 years of hunting here......

[Neill_Prater]

Missouri regulations state that anyone using a turkey call must be legally licensed meaning having a "filled or unfilled" turkey tag. I couldn't find any mention of placing decoys, etc.

[cuppednlocked]

Bowbendr,

Where in the GS or Reg Digest say that the tag is what allows you to "take" game?  To be more specific, where does it say the tag must not be filled?  It is illegal to take big game without tags issued to you.  There is no mention of filled vs unfilled, only "properly licensed" ie having tags.

On youth day, adults can (and are encouraged to) help the youth kill a bird.  The season is NOT open for adults.  Why don't properly licensed adults get tickets for hunting out of season when helping with the youth hunt?  It's not because they still have unfilled tags.  (pg56 of Reg Digest)

What you are saying is roosting a bird the night before the season opens is illegal?  You should have unfilled tags, like in the youth example, but you are "taking" turkeys out of season and after legal shooting hours.

My question regarding hunting guides still stands.

In reference to your friend, there are too many variables to mention: first ticket for violation, season open/closed, is there even a charge for "spotlighting" or is it only "taking with the aid of artificial light" (I don't know and don't feel like researching it)?  It isn't the gun that makes the act of shining out of hours illegal.

[BowBendr]

Bowbendr,

Where in the GS or Reg Digest say that the tag is what allows you to "take" game?  To be more specific, where does it say the tag must not be filled?  It is illegal to take big game without tags issued to you.  There is no mention of filled vs unfilled, only "properly licensed" ie having tags.

On youth day, adults can (and are encouraged to) help the youth kill a bird.  The season is NOT open for adults.  Why don't properly licensed adults get tickets for hunting out of season when helping with the youth hunt?  It's not because they still have unfilled tags.  (pg56 of Reg Digest)

What you are saying is roosting a bird the night before the season opens is illegal?  You should have unfilled tags, like in the youth example, but you are "taking" turkeys out of season and after legal shooting hours.

My question regarding hunting guides still stands.

In reference to your friend, there are too many variables to mention: first ticket for violation, season open/closed, is there even a charge for "spotlighting" or is it only "taking with the aid of artificial light" (I don't know and don't feel like researching it)?  It isn't the gun that makes the act of shining out of hours illegal.

There is no mention of filled vs. unfilled tags in the NC reg. book, but it does say that to hunt you must also be in possession of your NC hunter harvest report card. If your card doesn't have any valid slots left to be filled in for the species and season that is open, you could have a problem......

The reason that adult hunters are not ticketed for hunting out of season during youth hunts is because you are given an "exemption" by the state in the law that states all youth hunters under 16 must be accompanied in the field by a properly licensed adult.

Just read what I posted about "manner of taking" and what constitutes "taking", then let your mind really try to wrap around what it's saying....that sentence, that one broad, sweeping, blanketing sentence.....you can't completely even fathom it if you really start thinking about it.....it could mean anything to any GW out in the field that's looking to write a ticket.

That's why I gave the example of my friend and the spotlight. It doesn't take a weapon, a shot being fired, a dead deer or a turkey, or even anything criminal to get yourself started down the road to legal troubles. The law is so blanketing that it becomes gray and can be argued any way any LEO sees fit,IMHO.
Should my friend have received a ticket for "shining a light after 11 p.m." ? YES ! It was a crime.
Should my friend have received a ticket for "taking deer with the aide of a spotlight ?" Absolutely not. Now people think he was out killing deer and it's hurt him in the community, all the while he's trying to admit to the crime of shining after 11. He tells people he had no gun and killed no deer and they say....what ?..........yeah right...............but HE opened that can of worms.......

Yes, I do believe that in NC if you were out roosting turkeys the night before opening day and you were using turkey calls to roost birds as some do (fly up cackles/cutting at sunset)...you could have a problem if somebody wanted to be an arse about it....AND, you had previous legal troubles as Mr. Spann had.........

My post wasn't to de-bunk you or confront your post, it was to address the OP's original post and as to whether or not Mr. Spann was actually out trying to break the law. Tennessee has a law very similar to ours here in NC, and if I had experienced the legal troubles that Mr. Spann had previously had, I be danged if I would have been anywhere near a turkey hunt. I would have took my punishment and laid low, trying to recover my credibility to the hunting world and my sponsors. Instead, he chose to be out in the field and whether he was just trying to help a kid out on a youth hunt, baiting, whatever......he's on his way to jail now, crime or no crime....HE opened that can of worms.....but it's that "hunting" definition that got him........

[TalksToTurkeys]

Guys,

I don't think it was some vague definition of hunting that got Spann into further trouble.
He was an unlicenced person who participated in a hunt.

I don't know Tennessee law but here is what Pa. law has to say about unlicensed persons.

Unlicensed Persons: An unlicensed person may accompany a properly licensed hunter or trapper
provided the unlicensed person acts only as an observer and does not, in any manner, participate in hunting or trapping.

Petersen's Hunting has an interesting article , evidently fellow poacher Ted Nugent is supporting  Spann.   
Here's the link.

http://www.petersenshunting.com/2013/08/02/tv-host-spook-spann-violates-probation-gets-jail-time-and-hunting-ban/

[cuppednlocked]

GWs have latitude to do their jobs (good or bad).  If a GW wants to write you a ticket they WILL find something.

I am not trying to be an internet tough guy.  However, I believe the idea you have of hunting with a buddy (after tagging out) and getting a ticket is a bit extreme and narrow.

As you pointed out, the law does not state you must have unfilled tags in the report card to be in the woods, only that you are properly licensed (have report card on you, etc).  If you are alone with a gun, with no open slots on the card, and hunting, the GW will certainly give you a pink slip.  If you are with helping someone, they have the gun, and have not tagged out you are going to be OK.

I'll give you another example:
You are duck hunting with friends, and are shooting accurately.  Before the birds stop flying you shoot your limit and case your gun.  Your birds are segregated to follow the law.  You call, help retrieve birds, etc and your friends continue to shoot.  By your interpretation you are now taking ducks "over the limit".  I have been in that situation and the reverse, been checked by different GWs and not gotten a ticket.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that if you call the NCWRC Enforcement Division and ask about it you will be told it's ok as long as you are "properly licensed", you don't have a gun and no more than 1 bird is taken.

Edited to add:
I spoke with a former student/friend that is a NCWRC officer.  He confirmed that if you are properly licensed to take game you CAN call, place decoys, etc for someone else to "take" game after tagging out as long as you do not have a gun as well.  The catch is "reasonable interpretation".  By helping with calling, etc you do not have intent to reduce to posession, kill, harm, etc.  The gun is what causes the reasonable interpretation that you intend to kill.

The charge for shining deer after dark past legal hours is a curfew violation, not taking deer with the aid of artificial light.  A firearm in the vehicle is what causes the difference.