20 gauge lead load

[Davyalabama]

Lead is 11.3 g/cm and tss is 18+ g,/cm depending on the exact alloy composition.  In short not much more than the 1 1/4 oz of lead will fit in the shell. 

If a 1 1/4 oz is all that will fit,how do explain the Windy Hill 1 7/16 oz load and the other guys 1 1/2 oz load of 6s.

It's wad volume.  First not all wads have the same internal volume.  Second an ounce of tss is a different volume than an ounce of lead shot.  Two different factors dictating outcome of an equation.

1.5oz of Nickel Plated Lead with 15 grains of Mix 47 buffer fits like a glove in a 3" TPS wad. Not a single pellet above the rim of the wad. Could honestly bump it up to 1-9/16oz with less buffer if you wanted to.

The reason there aren't any mass produced loads over 1.25oz is because lead load development took a major backseat when TSS came to the market. Really, the past 10 years of shotshell load development for most companies has consisted of something to do with TSS or another heavyweight shot material.

I'm going to develop some lead loads that will let us give China the middle finger and utilize shot we can buy right here in the USA for $5 per pound or less. 3 loads went out for testing this week. 1.5oz 20ga 3", 2oz 12ga 3", and 2-5/8oz 10ga.

This entire thread proves that a lot of people don't understand what tss and it's concept is.  I could try to explain it but in a nutshell it pattern density not just heavier than lead shot.  Never will 1 1/2 oz of #6 lead (336 pellets,) be as dense as 1 5/8 oz of tss #9 (594 pellets). That's what makes it work. 

Yep, reading the thread I can certainly tell.  The reason for shooting lead, in my opinion boils down to price and older guns.  Personally, my older guns can't shoot TSS, so, I'm limited to lead/copper/nickel (I don't think I've ever shot nickel).   

Folks, there is no way to load the payload in a lead shell the way you can in a #8,#9 TSS, I would have to see it, plus have a decent wad.  Though in reading some books, the wads for the older shells actually do not need the same thickness as the newer TSS.  I think, please don't quote me, but the wads they were developing, 80's/90's, were thinner to handle the older guns with fixed chokes.  I think that is why you had some, with fixed choked guns, love the longbeard and some that didn't.  The ones that loved it shot IC/modified, the ones that didn't shot fixed full (if the full was really constricted).  Now, I could be wrong, but I believe this was why I didn't like the Win. longbeards.  Oh well, I'm off on a tangent.....

It boils down to the ammo makers aren't putting R&d into lead anymore the way they are TSS.  The same way us older folks are having a hard time finding heavier 12 gauge 2 3/4 shells.  They are packing everything into 3" and 3.5".

[patternfreak]

This entire thread proves that a lot of people don't understand what tss and it's concept is.  I could try to explain it but in a nutshell it pattern density not just heavier than lead shot.  Never will 1 1/2 oz of #6 lead (336 pellets,) be as dense as 1 5/8 oz of tss #9 (594 pellets). That's what makes it work. 

After spending the last 6 years on TSS load development I think I understand it better than your average joe. I think what this thread has really proved is that TSS has became a crutch for turkey hunters and they are adverse to alternate options. So much so they don't want to accept it's possible.

You first tried to say we couldn't fit more than 1-1/4oz in a wad. I have posted multiple pictures to show 1-1/2oz fits with room to spare.

I wholeheartedly agree that you will have more pattern density with the tss load, but there is a point of diminishing returns.

Sure, we can put 300 pellets in a 10" circle with TSS, but is that turkey at 40 yards any more dead than the turkey shot with lead 6's that had 150 pellets in the 10" circle? No sir.

It's time we come back down to earth with shotshell load development. TSS has made us greedy. There's not a thing in the world wrong with cheap nickel plated lead. Lead shot has been and always will be the standard by which other shot materials are judged. We don't need 250 pellets in a 10" circle to kill a turkey.

[Gooserbat]

This entire thread proves that a lot of people don't understand what tss and it's concept is.  I could try to explain it but in a nutshell it pattern density not just heavier than lead shot.  Never will 1 1/2 oz of #6 lead (336 pellets,) be as dense as 1 5/8 oz of tss #9 (594 pellets). That's what makes it work. 

After spending the last 6 years on TSS load development I think I understand it better than your average joe. I think what this thread has really proved is that TSS has became a crutch for turkey hunters and they are adverse to alternate options. So much so they don't want to accept it's possible.

You first tried to say we couldn't fit more than 1-1/4oz in a wad. I have posted multiple pictures to show 1-1/2oz fits with room to spare.

I wholeheartedly agree that you will have more pattern density with the tss load, but there is a point of diminishing returns.

Sure, we can put 300 pellets in a 10" circle with TSS, but is that turkey at 40 yards any more dead than the turkey shot with lead 6's that had 150 pellets in the 10" circle? No sir.

It's time we come back down to earth with shotshell load development. TSS has made us greedy. There's not a thing in the world wrong with cheap nickel plated lead. Lead shot has been and always will be the standard by which other shot materials are judged. We don't need 250 pellets in a 10" circle to kill a turkey.

First I did not say you couldn't get more than 1 1/4 oz of shot in a 20 gauge.  I said or meant to say that it was relevant to wad volume and 1 1/4 oz was what filled up the wad.  You are correct in the assumption that if you change the wad you change the volume.  I agree tss is a tool but not necessary.  I've been shooting it for 10 years and learned to hand load a long while before you could buy it as loaded ammo.  Now where I believe we're going to disagree is the 40 yard thing.  I personally don't care if a bird is 15 yards or 60.  If my gun is proven to be lethal at that range I'm taking the bird.  And yes a 250/40 is a clean kill at 60 yards.  Id probably get people at my house with torches and pitchforks if I posted some of the shot distance I've seen over the years from guys who have truly developed loads to kill turkeys at ridiculous ranges. I understand it's fool hardy to post those and I don't neither do I advocate for it but I do accept the reality that it's not a 40 yard game if you don't want it to be.  But that's up to you and there is no wrong answer.

For what it's worth if I were to shoot lead again out of a 20 gauge it would be nickel plated and either #6.5 or #7 in as heavy as payload as possible.

[Dtrkyman]

I am sure the lead has been ignored in recent years but 1 1/4oz in 20ga has been around forever!

I don't think folks were on the sub gauge trend until hevi shot showed up and then heavyweight, but even those were loaded with 1 1/4 oz.

Wonder what kind of shot volume is max with a roll crimp?  Not any higher volume wads most likely at this time.

The 15gcc is about the price of TSS a year ago, develop a 7.5 or 8 shot in that would be a potential winner, in that shot they should rival penetration of TSS 9.5 maybe?

Number 7 hevi 12 gcc in a polished round pellet like the old Winchester xtended range has potential as well.

I would consider loading lead if it were legit 40 yard load but unless it gives me wiggle room I will bite the bullet and pay for TSS!  It's not too bad in the grand scheme of things and gives me confidence when I pull the trigger!


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[Davyalabama]

Gooserbat:  For what it's worth if I were to shoot lead again out of a 20 gauge it would be nickel plated and either #6.5 or #7 in as heavy as payload as possible.

     Help me understand why nickel and 6.5 or 7's, I am generally running #4 lead, I like the ummph.    I'm not trying to get in an argument, I'm learning about nickel.

[patternfreak]

I am sure the lead has been ignored in recent years but 1 1/4oz in 20ga has been around forever!

I don't think folks were on the sub gauge trend until hevi shot showed up and then heavyweight, but even those were loaded with 1 1/4 oz.

Wonder what kind of shot volume is max with a roll crimp?  Not any higher volume wads most likely at this time.

The 15gcc is about the price of TSS a year ago, develop a 7.5 or 8 shot in that would be a potential winner, in that shot they should rival penetration of TSS 9.5 maybe?

Number 7 hevi 12 gcc in a polished round pellet like the old Winchester xtended range has potential as well.

I would consider loading lead if it were legit 40 yard load but unless it gives me wiggle room I will bite the bullet and pay for TSS!  It's not too bad in the grand scheme of things and gives me confidence when I pull the trigger!


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We could do 1-9/16oz with a roll crimp for sure. MAYBE 1-5/8oz but that would be pushing it.

Remember, lead shot, even the hard nickel plated stuff, is a lot softer than TSS. There's nothing wrong with having some lead pellets above the wad. You're not going to hurt a barrel with lead shot.

At 1-5/8oz you'd definitely have some pellets over the wad. At 1-1/2oz everything is captured in the wad, even when adding 15 grains of buffer.

I think as long as we all understand this is a 40 yard load, not a 60 yard load, everyone would be happy with the performance

[Dtrkyman]

Higher payload isn't always a guarantee on patterns either especially with minimal difference.

After shooting TSS for a decent I doubt I would ever be satisfied with a lead pattern?

But I am really interested in results.

BCO shot old school xx 5s, and through a Rob Robert's .564 it was not bad! Better than I've seen from lead in the past.


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[greentrout]

This entire thread proves that a lot of people don't understand what tss and it's concept is.  I could try to explain it but in a nutshell it pattern density not just heavier than lead shot.  Never will 1 1/2 oz of #6 lead (336 pellets,) be as dense as 1 5/8 oz of tss #9 (594 pellets). That's what makes it work. 

After spending the last 6 years on TSS load development I think I understand it better than your average joe. I think what this thread has really proved is that TSS has became a crutch for turkey hunters and they are adverse to alternate options. So much so they don't want to accept it's possible.

You first tried to say we couldn't fit more than 1-1/4oz in a wad. I have posted multiple pictures to show 1-1/2oz fits with room to spare.

I wholeheartedly agree that you will have more pattern density with the tss load, but there is a point of diminishing returns.

Sure, we can put 300 pellets in a 10" circle with TSS, but is that turkey at 40 yards any more dead than the turkey shot with lead 6's that had 150 pellets in the 10" circle? No sir.

It's time we come back down to earth with shotshell load development. TSS has made us greedy. There's not a thing in the world wrong with cheap nickel plated lead. Lead shot has been and always will be the standard by which other shot materials are judged. We don't need 250 pellets in a 10" circle to kill a turkey.

First I did not say you couldn't get more than 1 1/4 oz of shot in a 20 gauge.  I said or meant to say that it was relevant to wad volume and 1 1/4 oz was what filled up the wad.  You are correct in the assumption that if you change the wad you change the volume.  I agree tss is a tool but not necessary.  I've been shooting it for 10 years and learned to hand load a long while before you could buy it as loaded ammo.  Now where I believe we're going to disagree is the 40 yard thing.  I personally don't care if a bird is 15 yards or 60.  If my gun is proven to be lethal at that range I'm taking the bird.  And yes a 250/40 is a clean kill at 60 yards.  Id probably get people at my house with torches and pitchforks if I posted some of the shot distance I've seen over the years from guys who have truly developed loads to kill turkeys at ridiculous ranges. I understand it's fool hardy to post those and I don't neither do I advocate for it but I do accept the reality that it's not a 40 yard game if you don't want it to be.  But that's up to you and there is no wrong answer.

For what it's worth if I were to shoot lead again out of a 20 gauge it would be nickel plated and either #6.5 or #7 in as heavy as payload as possible.

So that would be pheasant loads effectively?