New Winchester TSS

[bbcoach]

Shannon and Tom are SPOT ON in MY book!  BIGGER isn't always better.  Companies (advertising) will have us believe killing at GREATER distance is the PINNICLE of this sport.  Winchester ammo is a PRIME example with the Longbeard XR (Xtended range) and now jumping into TSS.  It's advertising hype and the ALL-mighty dollar running this Train.  For you guys running the sub gauges, the technology of TSS has brought the 20, 28 and .410 into Plain view for turkey hunting and is Great IMO.  Let's try to educate, that distance in turkey hunting isn't a Good thing in many ways.  But being able to call that bird to the end of your gun barrel and hear that thunderous gobble at 20 yards is the PINNICLE of this sport!  IMO it isn't about the number of turkeys I kill or the distance I kill them (BRAGGING RIGHTS) but the HEART POUNDING EXCITEMENT that I see and hear at CLOSE range.   

[sswv]

I have an older than me friend (81 years old) that hunts with #7.5 chilled shot that he reloads himself using spent Wagner double 10 shooting match cases. He gathered up a big load of those hulls years ago and loaded them for crow hunting. His gun is an old Browning Citori with M & F chokes and he has no trouble killing gobblers. But then again, he's 81 and skill and patience is on his side. LOL

[zelmo1]

Bragging about not calling birds into ethical gun range is asinine. Be smarter than the hype around any product. Most people that would not be embarrassed about bragging about a ridiculous shot, are not on this site or part of our community. We can't fix all the yahoos out there, but we can choose to not be one of them. Z

[Mossyguy]

I shoot TSS out of my 20 because of the pattern density it provides...and that's the only reason. I've never patterned my gun past 40 as I will never shoot one that far and I've yet to shoot a bird past 35.

The reason I bow hunt deer is because I want to see how close I can get before I let an arrow fly. Turkeys are the same way...there's absolutely nothing exciting about shoot one past 40 yards. If I can't get him any closer than that then he has won that round and we play again another day.

As the old saying goes "It's not whether you win or lose..it's how you play the game.

[Number17]

What is ethical gun range and who establishes that?
Wouldn't the ethical range of a gun be determined by the capability of the load, and therefore each load has a different ethical range?

The 40 yard threshold was originally agreed-upon because of that was the limit where lead shot energy and pattern density both gave out.
The game has changed like it or not. Just because you don't want to shoot farther than you did in the 80s doesn't mean it's unethical. You can choose a different word for it but it has nothing to do with ethics.

[bbcoach]

Eth·ics
1.
moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting of an activity:
2.
the branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles:

Here is a GREAT definition of ethics.  Being ethical in Anything is about doing the RIGHT thing morally.  Setting Standards and LIMITATIONS based on a set of Values.  As turkey hunters, we have the technology, equipment and ability to shoot at GREAT distances (I won't elaborate because it isn't morally or ethical right).  What I will say is each of us have morals and standards that we live by.  We grew up with mentors that taught us their morals, values and standards and for the most part we live our lives by those standards.  Turkey hunting isn't any different.  Let's educate those that we MENTOR that experiencing a THUNDEROUS GROUND SHAKING gobble at 10 to 20 yards is entirely different than at the KNOWN limits of our equipment and technology and then bragging about the distance of that kill.  For me and those that I mentor, Killing and Bragging rights won't ever be the Primary objective of this Great sport, it's the In-Your-Face, Up-close and Personal Excitement it provides.             

[Tom007]

There are factors that affect projectiles that a lot of people ignore. Let's look a compound or crossbow arrows. We all know that the modern crossbows are capable of shooting one inch groups at yardages out near 100. I crossbow hunt every fall, and pretty much employ my 35 yard rule when shooting at a deer in the big woods. The reason for my decision here is in the big woods, there are branches or saplings you just don't see shooting beyond 40 yards. Deflection levels increase significantly the further out you shoot. I am buy no means comparing this to turkey loads, but how many people pattern their guns out in the woods in "brushy" conditions similar to the environment that they actually hunt? Let's face it, there could be pellet deflection or pattern failure depending on the path of the shot in woods under hunting conditions. I feel comfortable with my turkey optics that I pick up most obstacles as my bird approaches allowing me to have a cleaner chance of a crisp kill. This is just what I do. It is my hunting style, doesn't make it right for all, but it is right for me. Wounding one of these majestic birds is the last thing I want to do when I leave the woods every spring. Be safe...

[Greg Massey]

I just enjoy playing the game with gobblers and using my calls to convince him to come to me. That's why I practice with my calls pretty much year round. Regardless of the shells my kill zone depending on the terrain is 0 / 40 yards. My sweet spot is 20 / 25 ... I'm definitely not going to let advertising on a box of shells try and convince me to shoot beyond the ethical range of my guns. 12,20,28,410 ... My ethical range is less than 40 yards. I like looking eye to eye with my gobbler..LOL

As others have said, getting to hear that daybreak gobbler is game on and nothing better. The excitement is heart pounding and hair raising on the back of my neck...

[Number17]

The morality of the 40 yard limit was based off the capabilities of guns, loads and chokes derived from testing 40-50-60 years ago.

Loads were not capable of killing reliably beyond that distance, and so it was established as the "ethical" range.

Why did the old timers shoot 4's, buy 10 gauge guns, go to 3.5"  shells, develop chokes and send their barrels away to Bansner.......that's right to try to push that range even farther.

TSS is the easy button.

It's probably not ethical to shoot at a gobbler past 25 yards with a .410 and lead, but it's ethically a 40 yard gun all day long with Tungsten.
So again, is the limit of ethics in the distance to target or in the capability of the weapon/load?

I haven't shot a bird past that mythical magic distance in a few years, most I set up to kill in the 30 yard range very purposely, but I'm 100% positive I can ethically kill them quite a few steps beyond the long ago established limit of turkey guns.

[Tom007]

All great thoughts here. My final thought on "Ethical Range" is an individuals decision on how far they want to shoot to harvest a turkey. We as sportsman can only hope that the shots turkey hunters take lead to clean kills. We all owe this to any quarry we pursue.

[Sir-diealot]

Probably advertising 100 yard shots.

Davisd9, If I remember correctly, when the Winchester XR's first came out they were advertised as 60 yarders, so you are probably spot on.  Not in my gun though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Disgusting.

[Clif Owen]

When did the mindset go to shooting them in the head/neck? The reason I ask is I have an old book bout turkey hunting in which the author talks about using a 10 gauge double barrel and large shot..I think it was 2's and 3's. He took body shots as well as head shots at really long distances. I think he was hitting the birds with only a couple of shot but I guess with those large ones; you only need a couple. He talked about the big shot breaking bone and preventing them from flying away.
Before y'all roast me..when I first hunted in 1982, I was taught to shoot them in the face and that is what I have done and believe in. I was just curious about when the opinion changed or if that guy was the only one to think that way.

[bbcoach]

I'll say this about your Play on Words on "ethical range", JUST BECAUSE my equipment can put 5 or 6 pellets in the head and neck of a turkey sized PAPER target at a GREAT distance doesn't make it a KILLA.  Our mentors have instilled in us their wisdom, knowledge and standards about what is Factual not Probable and morally and ethically we need to HONOR those individuals.  If we Honor and Teach the 40 and under rule, then there is a little wiggle room for a distance estimation error.  In my Old age, I want them in tight so I can See, Feel, Hear and Enjoy the Splendor of this Majestic Bird.  If they don't get inside that 40 and under distance, then we will have to make a date to Play another day.

I am also Ethically Honoring the Standards of the Administrators of this GREAT site by following their Rules (which I totally agree with)
3) Thou shall watch what they say publicly - pertaining to extended shots -No public over 40-yard talk.
4) Thou shall not talk of stupid shots
5) Thou shall not act like a "internet hero"

[GobbleNut]

Kind of getting off of the topic a bit but here we are...

Quite honestly, it is a moot point to discuss what is ethical and what is not.  Each of us chooses the ethical standards we want to hunt by, whether it be turkeys or anything else.  For instance, whether we agree with it or not, some folks are just peachy-keen with shooting turkeys with rifles...and some states allow it.  Personally, I don't understand the desire to hunt turkeys that way. but it is what it is.

The same holds true for the guy who is sets up his gun where he can kill turkeys at ranges that many of us might find unacceptable.  Again, it is what it is.

Here is my concern: We have discussed the declines in turkey hunting opportunity ad nauseum here on OG. At least some of that decline is due to our increasing ability to kill gobblers with weapons and tactics that were not even imagined way back when turkey hunting...and especially spring gobbler hunting...became "a thing".

Gobblers that were safe when staying more than about forty yards away a few decades ago are now being mowed down at alarming rates because of such things as strutter decoys, fanning, and now...shotguns, chokes, and loads that will kill turkeys well beyond ranges that were considered acceptable back then.

The bottom line is that, as more folks turkey hunt and are willing to use methods...and shoot turkeys at ranges that at one time were unimagined...we are all going to suffer with the impacts of that.  Those impacts are less hunting opportunity and less quality of turkey hunting across the board. 

Sure, we all want to (justifiably) blame other stuff like "social media" for why the above is happening but, in reality, each of us needs to look right smack dab in the closest mirror and admit that we might individually be part of the problem due to what each of us finds acceptable in how each of us chooses to hunt.

[Tom007]

Kind of getting off of the topic a bit but here we are...

Quite honestly, it is a moot point to discuss what is ethical and what is not.  Each of us chooses the ethical standards we want to hunt by, whether it be turkeys or anything else.  For instance, whether we agree with it or not, some folks are just peachy-keen with shooting turkeys with rifles...and some states allow it.  Personally, I don't understand the desire to hunt turkeys that way. but it is what it is.

The same holds true for the guy who is sets up his gun where he can kill turkeys at ranges that many of us might find unacceptable.  Again, it is what it is.

Here is my concern: We have discussed the declines in turkey hunting opportunity ad nauseum here on OG. At least some of that decline is due to our increasing ability to kill gobblers with weapons and tactics that were not even imagined way back when turkey hunting...and especially spring gobbler hunting...became "a thing".

Gobblers that were safe when staying more than about forty yards away a few decades ago are now being mowed down at alarming rates because of such things as strutter decoys, fanning, and now...shotguns, chokes, and loads that will kill turkeys well beyond ranges that were considered acceptable back then.

The bottom line is that, as more folks turkey hunt and are willing to use methods...and shoot turkeys at ranges that at one time were unimagined...we are all going to suffer with the impacts of that.  Those impacts are less hunting opportunity and less quality of turkey hunting across the board. 

Sure, we all want to (justifiably) blame other stuff like "social media" for why the above is happening but, in reality, each of us needs to look right smack dab in the closest mirror and admit that we might individually be part of the problem due to what each of us finds acceptable in how each of us chooses to hunt.

This unfortunately is a reality. Well said my friend. We are all the "Gatekeepers" in this great sport we love, basically our destiny in the turkey woods is in our hands....