Do i even want a red dot

[rt2bowhunter]

First off . My dedicated 12 ga turkey gun is a single barrel Encore. It shoots a very tight pattern and has a Holosun green dot sight. I wouldn't think of using that gun without a sight. So let's get single barrel guns out of this conversation .

This is about my over under 20ga CZ Drake. That i'd like to make my everything gun. I bought a Comp n Choke .565 choke and i have several Huglu and Kicks ranging from full to cylinder both flush and extended. I admit i need to do some more shooting but so far. The .565 CNC using 2 3/4" 6 shot hits dead on at 25 yards and rolls squirrels out of trees out to about 40 yards. I patterned the gun using factory IM and full at 25 yards using my reloads 1oz of 5 shot. The top barrel shot about 2" high if that and the lower barrel shot about that low. In the squirrel woods they rolled the squirrels. I just let the squirrel set on top of the bead and close shots i covered the squirrel up with the Bead.


So here's my thinking to this point.

I run the .565 CNC shooting Apex 8.5 TSS ( i have a few boxes) in the top barrel that's where i have been shooting it. Using shooting a golf ball with a golf ball analogy i have read and agree with ( the green dot on the encore). I should have baseball shooting at a golf ball at 20 yards a a softball shooting at a golf ball at 30 a beach ball or basketball shooting at a golf ball at 40 yards with some pattern left for miss judged yardage. Here i agree get a red dot but.

In the bottom barrel with lead probably reloads or i have several boxes of Winchester 3" Double X magnum. I have tons of close stuff.  If i run a IC or maybe another choke. I need to shoot this to see. But i should end up with some combo. That will give me a softball shooting at a golf ball at 10 yards. A Basketball shooting at a golf ball at 20 yards and a beach ball shooting at a golf ball at 30 yards.

So being as i have been rolling the squirrels and a few quail and pheasants. Why would i need to put a sight on this Shotgun. I have zero doubt a squirrel jumps on the side of a tree shooting that CNC with 8.5 TSS It's getting destroyed at 50 yards. And if he does the same at 10 yards the open choke will do its job with lead. And anywhere in between. Just using the fiber optic bead i replaced the white bead with.

I just can't justify putting a red dot on this turkey gun. Because of the double chokes.

[ChesterCopperpot]

I personally want adjustable sights on every turkey gun I own—whether that be a rear sight, a scope, or a red dot. My reasoning here is two fold, one you hit on which is very tightly choked patterns at close ranges, but the second, which is the biggie for me, is awkward shot angles. Lots of situations where a turkey gets you jammed up and you can't shoulder the gun naturally. You can't get level. That problem increases exponentially when you're already operating from known holdovers because now you're not only not level but you're not level and needing to hold POA off of POI. I don't shoot an O/U but I do shoot a SxS 20ga. On that gun I've got a Holosun 507c-gr. Why I prefer that sight over any other for turkey guns is another conversation, but with that sight I'm dialed in for my tight barrel at 40yds. My open barrel shoots right of that at 20yds. It shoots to the far right of the circle on the circle dot. Because of that I'm operating from a known holdover just like you but the difference here is that the known holdover is replicable regardless of shot angle. If I'm completely on my side, or bent over backward shooting weak handed, the point on that circle is still the holdover. Personally I would never hunt a turkey gun with a known holdover on a bead because you can just get fouled up so bad by the bird. If I'm shooting a straight bead, which I do on a few guns, I want it either shooting spot on at range or I want the choke opened up and limit myself to 25 and under.


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[rt2bowhunter]

Very good points thanks for sharing. But i do experience the same odd angle shots at squirrels. And i can't argue one speck once sighted in the red dot is in the center of the pattern. Huge plus shooting at Gobblers as well as squirrels.

Once the weather straightens back up. I'll go up the hollow behind the house and see how it patterns both barrels with different chokes and loads .

[ChesterCopperpot]

There's lots of things I love about that particular red dot with the 32moa circle on a turkey gun but with that SxS this is where I have to hold for the short barrel at 20yds.


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[rt2bowhunter]

I can see what you mean.

I have a holosun with that retical. I like it alot too.

I'm thinking from pattering what i have anyway. I can hold center of the neck with the long barrel and the head with the short barrel. So far i haven't noticed any windage problems. But i did change the front sight well counting the factory bead 3 times and i added a shell holder to the stock and added spacers adjusting the comb. But the last bead change i learned i didn't need the comb adjustments.

Another thing i have found over the years. Being a blind hunter now days probably from bow hunting gobblers for probably 35 years with a Trad, compound and about  15 years ago a crossbow . It's hard to impossible for me to see a bead in the dark of a blind. So that will be a huge factor and will likely trump everything else.

We will see .

[rt2bowhunter]

Seeing if I can post a pic. For when I pattern my gun. This is a gobbler I killed this past fall with a crossbow.


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[Greg Massey]

Agree, red dot, circle dot or scope is what I want on all my turkey guns... I want to know POI on the gobbler... I don't want to think about holding this way or that way with a bead ... Great post ChesterCopperpot

[rt2bowhunter]

I think you guys are missing the point of my post. If you set a double barrel up the way i think they should be. There should never be any shooting a golf ball with a golf ball or missing close. Because you're using a more open choke up close and a tighter choke at distance. So you should have the same pattern size with your close barrel at 20 yards as you have with your long barrel at 40 yards or you change the short barrel until you do.

If i put a red dot on my Drake remember the top barrel shoots higher than the bottom. If i adjust the red dot to shoot dead on. I made my bottom barrel shoot much lower.

So unless i want to make my lower barrel shoot even lower. By adding a red dot it forces me to lower the barrels so the top barrel hits center of my pattern and the red dot. Making it harder for my choke choice (more open) to overcome the difference in regulation of the barrels. Or it makes a slight difference in my hold greater with the close barrel.

Here's what i think the benefits of a under over are.

You don't need a red dot or even any kind of sights. After all it's there to keep you from missing close. If you need a red dot to hit a golf ball with a beachball you need to work on gun fit imo.

You can use a more open choke inside 25,30 yards. You can shoot a bigger pattern with cheaper shells and still kill the bird and less recoil on you.

You can still have super tight choke with lets say TSS in the top barrel. That you don't need close and can let your choke work for you at 30+ yards where your shooting a more open pattern.

The point of my post was to have a shotgun thats ready to go squirrel,rabbit or upland bird hunting as well as being a fine turkey gun. And all i need to do is change the chokes .

[rt2bowhunter]

Here Thor lol. He's a gobbler sledgehammer. It's heavy because I made it heavy it's my blind gun and I want it to soak up the recoil of those 3" TSS loads. Notice the holosun sight it's a single barrel. It would be very easy to miss a gobbler inside 20 yards with this gun with the turkey choke. If I take the turkey choke out and put in a modified. It wouldn't need that red dot. But I couldn't kill far. See what I'm saying. .


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[ChesterCopperpot]

I think you guys are missing the point of my post.

No, I fully understand what you're saying. And if you test the loads and chokes with the bead and both barrels are shooting true to that POA I say roll with it. But without pattern testing it's making some tremendous assumptions about barrel regulation holding true between both barrels. Most cheaper doubles, which are what most of us are converting to turkey guns (me included), have shoddy regulation at best. It's adequate shooting open patterns at moving targets but that's not what you're asking a turkey gun to do. Your assumptions about choke are fine, and odds are if the pattern is open enough at 20yds then even if the regulation is off you'll still have plenty on the margins of the pattern to confidently shoot that barrel at a bird. But without pattern testing there's no way to say for sure. I know my two barrels shoot off from one another. I know my close barrel requires holdover. And that holdover is replicable because I have a sight.


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[rt2bowhunter]

And i clearly said i need to shoot some more. I haven't carried it turkey hunting yet. I will figure it out i have been doing this for 50 some years . I know how to shoot a shotgun and how to set up a Turkey gun.

If it don't work how i want it to no big deal I bought it for a rabbit gun. I'll take the Benelli Monty 20ga with a red dot the Encore 12 or the Encore 410 pistol or one of the single shots i have. Or i might carry a bow. It's going to be a gun i can do everything with by just changing the chokes or its a rabbit/squirrel gun. It's not or never was going to be just a Turkey gun.

But how it shot when i patterned it now with 7,6,5,4 shot everything i have but my TSS. Plus killing 8 squirrels. I think its going to be just fine. Going on hunting with a shotgun for 50 some years.

I will pattern it before i carry it hunting for Turkeys with what i will be shooting out of it at Gobblers. I know i only have one acorn . But i know what i'm doing .   

[YoungGobbler]

If you feel like you don't need a red dot, i wouldn't put a red dot on it. Seems like you know your gun and your patterns and you have the idea to use the right barrel for the right distance. Sounds perfect and I would stay right there with your gun.

You said you had difficulty seing the beed from a blind... I never hunted from a blind (a tent blind with a shotgun). First, I would check that to be very sure you can't see... Maybe some beads you have are darker than others? The one you have isn't that glossy? Or it isn't painted white?

But for seeing the bead, you could also just use a fiber optic sight that clips on the ventilated rib of most guns...

For the red dot thing... I don't have red dots and i've never tried one... I read the comments up here and I saw a few good reasons to have a red dot, mostly to sight in your pattern. Sounds like a very valid argument and makes total sense...

But I don't plan on putting red dots on anygun, nor buy any guns to make specific turkey guns from it...

What I have is do it all gun, with a factory full choke that stays on it from grouse season to turkey season...

[rt2bowhunter]

I actually used 3 different front beads. The white one that came in the gun. That shot like this.


I didn't save the targets because I learned what I learned .But that's a pretty good representation.

I then added a much higher bigger brighter magnetic fibre optic sight. That made the gun shoot off. So I added a shell holder to the stock and added a foam spacer. It wasn't enough so I added another. And got it back to shooting like it was. Keeping in mind your cheek weld and your eye is your rear sight .

I took it hunting right off I didn't like it. The bigger fibre optic sight was to big and cover up to much. But was very easy to see.

So I ordered a much smaller green fibre optic sight and for it to the rib after removing the white bead. This let me take the shims and shell holder off the stock.

Shooting after that move I got the .565 CNC in the mail and it shot like this.

That's how the factory full and modified and the .565 choke shot at 25 yards. So of I went hunting I liked how the gun fit and my sight plane with the new green small bead. And again I rolled the squirrels. I haven't shot the short barrel with the new bead on paper. Or worked out what choke and shot size I need to use to make it a good 20 yard and closer barrel.

And m not against a red dot at all far from it. Every single barrel Turkey gun I have wears one. I have used them on my Turkey guns ever since I seen one years ago. But I killed a bunch of gobblers without one but we didn't have guns that shoot like we have now either. Here's my Encore 45 colt 410 I dipped myself.

With 9.5 or 10 tss it's good out to 40 yards. I misjudged the distance one morning and killed this bird at 47 paces.

So I'm a huge fan of red dots. Just not on my over under .


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[YoungGobbler]

Nice, your encore  is  nice 

I had the feeling that a o/u shot like you show... Higher/lower... And I would not like that... I like my gun to shoot where I aim

[rt2bowhunter]

Well I shot it I've seen better. Dead birds but I hit a little high. I hope you can read what I wrote on the targets.


I should have used the same hold with the lower or more open choke. And  a little lower with both. Both barrels seem to be shooting closer to each other than before. Anyway that's what I suspected would happen after shooting it before. If you can't read it. The right target is Apex 8.5 tss and I held where the black star is on the target. The target on the left was with the bottom or open choke IM and I held on the head. I shot a skeet then a light modified I didn't like either of them.

But on the way home I went back behind the house. I got in one of my blinds and as I was pretty sure I couldn't see the bead. If I use it I'm sure it will need a red dot. Im a blind hunter anymore.

I hope I didn't offend anyone it was not my intent .


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