YouTube Influence

[silvestris]

Dead Coons don't destroy turkey nests.  The dogooders screwed it up when they started throwing blood on people wearing fur garments.

[eggshell]

I agree with all of you for the most part, except I wonder what planet that guesswho guy is from, that predators are an issue. Gobblegoob, dang I mean Gobblenut is right in being discreet. The antis already killed  the fur market, why wake the dragon from a slumber. Promote predator control internally.

I was just pondering this very topic this morning as I took a quick hunt between rain showers. If we try to make our case solely on protecting turkey nest we do not have much ground to stand on. The non hunting public care very little about our beloved turkeys. However, raccons do not just raid turkey nest, they raid song birds nest, small mammals, chicken coops, crap on the grain for your cereal and kill amphibians, even Eagle nest if given a chance. If your going to try and promote raccoon control measures, forget selling it on turkeys. Make it a bigger more socially sentitive issue. Print a story where raccoons raided a chicken farm and killed 100 chickens. Tell people they have less cardinals at their feeders and less baby  rabbits in their yard becasue the vicous raccoons are out of control. Tell them that raccons are spreading rabies to their pets and kids, ask them if their cereal taste like raccon pee....then you will have the public support. Heck, they may even demand the government step in.

I was taking notice in the last two weeks, while turkey hunting, that I do not see as many song birds. Our woods used to be full of warblers during turkey season and I am not seeing or hearing many. I used to be able to sit and watch hooded warblers, yellow, magnolia, and other warblers. The woods used to be alive with the songs of thrush and thrashers and I do not see or hear many. Perhaps there is a disease at work after all, like West Nile or avain flue.

[Marc]

I am just not convinced that predator control, especially coyote control is benefical to turkey populations?

I have seen several studies which show that coyote control is actually detrimental to ground nesting birds.

Coyotes kill/control other predators such as: Foxes, raccoons, skunks, Oppossums (all of which are worse on ground nesting birds), as well as bobcats (which are more likely to kill young and adult turkeys than are yotes).

Furthermore, coyotes main prey are fur-bearing rodents, which often compete for the same food sources at many upland birds (including turkeys).

Other studies show that indiscriminate killing of coyotes can actually increase populations by stimulating breeding (especially when dominant animals are killed).  You want to control them, it has to be by extensive trapping and/or destruction of dens.

And...  When we do get control the ground nesters, it would appear that avian predation increases (crows/ravens on eggs and young and raptors such as owls/hawks on adults and chicks).

I have called enough coyotes in while turkey hunting to know that they kill some turkeys...  But I still feel that killing them is more for fun than for any conservation benefit...

Bottom line is habitat improvement...  You want more turkeys to nest successfully, you need more good habitat over larger areas...  Birds condensed into smaller areas for nesting only attracts and makes it easier for predators....

[ScottTaulbee]

I am just not convinced that predator control, especially coyote control is benefical to turkey populations?

I have seen several studies which show that coyote control is actually detrimental to ground nesting birds.

Coyotes kill/control other predators such as: Foxes, raccoons, skunks, Oppossums (all of which are worse on ground nesting birds), as well as bobcats (which are more likely to kill young and adult turkeys than are yotes).

Furthermore, coyotes main prey are fur-bearing rodents, which often compete for the same food sources at many upland birds (including turkeys).

Other studies show that indiscriminate killing of coyotes can actually increase populations by stimulating breeding (especially when dominant animals are killed).  You want to control them, it has to be by extensive trapping and/or destruction of dens.

And...  When we do get control the ground nesters, it would appear that avian predation increases (crows/ravens on eggs and young and raptors such as owls/hawks on adults and chicks).

I have called enough coyotes in while turkey hunting to know that they kill some turkeys...  But I still feel that killing them is more for fun than for any conservation benefit...

Bottom line is habitat improvement...  You want more turkeys to nest successfully, you need more good habitat over larger areas...  Birds condensed into smaller areas for nesting only attracts and makes it easier for predators....

Marc, you seem very knowledgeable in fur bearer biology. I trapped from the time I was a kid until a couple years ago when I just didn't have any time for it anymore. The number one thing in trapping is understanding the animal and their biology. These so called nest predators aren't out looking for eggs to eat. They have a relatively small range and when they're out roaming looking for food and happen upon a nest of course they're going to eat it. They aren't actively seeking them like most seem to believe. People should be asking themselves what lead that hen to nest in the area that the coon was in to begin with and 9 times out of ten that goes back to poor habitat. Which in turn leads you to look at humans, we're expanding. Walmarts and grocery stores in what was 5 years ago a strut zone. Houses in what used to be roost locations. Etc. Advanced loads, firearms, optics, decoys, blind, calls, knowledge and methods are all also playing a role. I just can't wrap my head around that is hunters taking 30+ thousand (legally checked in) birds during the spring mating season every year doesn't play more of a role in a decline than a coon eating the random nest.


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[GobbleNut]

Gobblegoob, did I mention my attention span?  I'm going to have to wait for someone to give me the cliff notes. 

Gobblegoob!  I like it!  I wonder if it's too late to change my screen name...   
...And by the way,...it reminds me of that old saying,..."It takes one to know one"   

[guesswho]

  Guilty as charged.

[ruffbritt4]

I am just not convinced that predator control, especially coyote control is benefical to turkey populations?

I have seen several studies which show that coyote control is actually detrimental to ground nesting birds.

Coyotes kill/control other predators such as: Foxes, raccoons, skunks, Oppossums (all of which are worse on ground nesting birds), as well as bobcats (which are more likely to kill young and adult turkeys than are yotes).

Furthermore, coyotes main prey are fur-bearing rodents, which often compete for the same food sources at many upland birds (including turkeys).

Other studies show that indiscriminate killing of coyotes can actually increase populations by stimulating breeding (especially when dominant animals are killed).  You want to control them, it has to be by extensive trapping and/or destruction of dens.

And...  When we do get control the ground nesters, it would appear that avian predation increases (crows/ravens on eggs and young and raptors such as owls/hawks on adults and chicks).

I have called enough coyotes in while turkey hunting to know that they kill some turkeys...  But I still feel that killing them is more for fun than for any conservation benefit...

Bottom line is habitat improvement...  You want more turkeys to nest successfully, you need more good habitat over larger areas...  Birds condensed into smaller areas for nesting only attracts and makes it easier for predators....

Marc, you seem very knowledgeable in fur bearer biology. I trapped from the time I was a kid until a couple years ago when I just didn't have any time for it anymore. The number one thing in trapping is understanding the animal and their biology. These so called nest predators aren't out looking for eggs to eat. They have a relatively small range and when they're out roaming looking for food and happen upon a nest of course they're going to eat it. They aren't actively seeking them like most seem to believe. People should be asking themselves what lead that hen to nest in the area that the coon was in to begin with and 9 times out of ten that goes back to poor habitat. Which in turn leads you to look at humans, we're expanding. Walmarts and grocery stores in what was 5 years ago a strut zone. Houses in what used to be roost locations. Etc. Advanced loads, firearms, optics, decoys, blind, calls, knowledge and methods are all also playing a role. I just can't wrap my head around that is hunters taking 30+ thousand (legally checked in) birds during the spring mating season every year doesn't play more of a role in a decline than a coon eating the random nest.


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Glad to see this is being addressed. Predator control without proper habitat is simply putting a band aid on a bullet hole.

[howl]

Making an effort on predator control is a great idea. Maybe regional contests would help. I've seen it for coyotes. Most of the coon hunters I know try to conserve coons, though.

I'm not sure on the YT angle. I have a youtube channel. I think the reason it only got a few hundred is because successful channels have to follow some kind of toxic paradigm like facebook influencers. It's not totally about content. I admit I don't really understand. Maybe because I don't fb or even watch the YT hunting videos.

[Shiloh]

I'm going to say that it's already becoming the popular thing along with burning.  A quick call to the dog proof manufacturers might back this up.  I am also seeing more smoke on the horizon in Feb and March than I ever have. 
Out of control coon pops will eventually control themselves with distemper and it is a nasty way to die I'd imagine.  I can remember multiple coons wandering around the house in the early 90's because they were blinded from distemper.
Nesting habitat needs as much attention as possible too.  Hens don't need to have to go far to nest.  They get picked off when they have to travel too far.

[eggshell]

Most studies have concluded that predator control is an ineffective strategy in management of wildlife. Typically prey and predator coexist in a balanced ecosystem. Things go awry when a parameter drives the pendulum too far one way. Nature has built in corrections, like distemper, and raccoons, in particular, seldom exist at high levels because of it. However, when something else has driven healthy populations close to the brink everything matters, even one nest. So predator control may be slowing the bleeding, but it won't save the patient unless the cause of the bleeding is found. Still we know that we have to stop the bleeding to give us time to diagnose the cause. A question that repeatedly comes to my mind is, "why did populations sustain so well for 50+ years then suddenly in less than 10 years plummet?"  The fur market went bust in the 90s and raccoon exploded soon after, but still no one was hollering about the loss of turkeys. I am convinced there's another player on the field. Agencies do care and they are working on it, but it will take time.   

[g8rvet]

Thanks Marc.  I said as much on one post and got absolutely slammed.  Like I was some slob, only care about myself hunter. 

Predator control in limited areas can be very effective (private lands), but in large scale ecosystems has been shown to just cause other predators to invade, reproduce and change the whole diversity of the system-often to the bad for the very species you are trying to protect.

A nearby State Park had a problem with racoons.  Big problem.  I am on the Rabies Committee for my state and we set the code for dealing with rabies.  If a rabid animal is found in my state, I know about it.  This park had a crazy number of coons and the tourists were literally hand feeding them.  It was headed for a fatality as the people would camp and disperse, many back to another country.  The stae took decisive action - very quietly.  The next time I camped there, not a coon was seen.  I mentioned that to the ranger.  She said she did not know what I was talking about.  I just smiled and told her my name and my position.  She nodded and said "the problem no longer exists".  Like someone above said, it was not done as much for the shore birds and other natives, but for humans.  This is an isolated location and the control was very effective.  Trying to control predators in the local 750,000 acre National Forest would be a total waste of effort. 

It is always, first and foremost, about healthy, well managed habitat. 

[Ohiowoodchuck]

What if the states offered bounties for fur. I'm sure that would bring trappers out of the woodwork again. I wonder how long it took the predator population to recover after the fur boom. Did it take this long to recover and now we are seeing the affects of it? I'm just now seeing signs of something hitting the raccoons. I'm finding them dead on creekbanks and such. Haven't seen any alive to tell if it's distemper or a overpopulation issue. I have no faith in the Ohio wildlife council to do the right thing. They sold the Ohio Sportsman out a few years ago over the bobcat season. The let the anti's-peta decide that we wasn't having a bobcat season. They want to wait till the study is complete and then determine if we need a season. The things are everywhere, there getting hit on the road etc. I'm sure there having an impact on the poults. Ohio just wants the money.

[Cowboy]

1. If you kill one dang coon, that dang coon won't have a chance to kill ANYTHING. 

2. My buddy started catching coons 2 or 3 years ago. 60 + this year. He had A DOZEN, YES I SAID DOZEN  STRUTTING LONGBEARDS in the field on his farm. More turkeys now than EVER. Coincidence???

3. I've killed coyotes coming in to the turkey call and had one rush my decoy that got popped. Coyotes eat turkeys as well as small dogs and cats. Opportunists.

4. I have seen a distemper diseased coon wander up in my yard. I don't want them around. It's a sad sight to see as well.

Bottom line. Whatever you remove will be that much less of a problem.

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[silvestris]

I wonder how long it took the predator population to recover after the fur boom.

There was nothing to recover from.  The remaining furbearers went back to breeding.  My father was one of the largest fur dealers in the South and year after year he bought hundred of thousands of hides a year.  He and the trappers did a great favor for bird life until the PETA types destroyed the industry.