Nebraska Changes - "Spring bag limit reduction not enough"

[GobbleNut]

Here is a "Duhhh" moment for everyone:
The reason we are in the place we are with wild turkeys in those regions where they are declining is that reproductive success and survival of young turkeys to adulthood is not keeping up with adult mortality that is a result of all factors, including human hunting.  The key/solution to this dilemma at its fundamental level is found in solving the reproduction/population recruitment problem. 

Wild turkey managers fully understand the above statement.  They know that the solution is in reproduction rather than hunting restrictions.  HOWEVER, they also know that reversing the reproduction problem is dependent upon having adequate numbers of adult turkeys "on the ground" if and when that happens.  Managers are reaching that "protection mode" in many locations. 

For decades, the theory of spring gobbler hunting was "the gobblers are surplus,...we don't have to worry about how many are killed in the spring".  That theory is now changing to "wait a minute,...we have to have SOME gobblers (and enough gobblers) out there on the landscape during breeding season to start with!" 

THAT is the reason we are seeing reduced seasons and bag limits!  Wildlife managers are fully aware that hunting restrictions are not the answer,...but they also are aware that the ONLY hope for reversing the trend in declining numbers is to ensure there are adequate numbers of adult turkeys on the landscape to have ANY chance of recovery if and when the reproduction problem is solved.  (Note: the only other solution is artificial supplementation of populations which, in my opinion, will have to be implemented at some point in the future)

[Dtrkyman]

The "wait a minute" theory is not new, it has just come into the picture more now.

Many states have been utilizing that theory for years!

Illinois, Missouri, Wisconsin and My Michigan to name a few.

All those states scatter harvest over a long season, Illinois and Missouri have Monday openers, Missouri only allows a single bird the first week.

Nothing new just not implemented often enough.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nativeks]

I think it was always assumed that hunting was compensatory mortality. And I believe that is likely the case in an expanding, or stable population. However with current trends in populations I believe we have potentially swung into the additive category. Every bird's life matters more when the population numbers are lower. We can't keep exploiting the resource like we could when numbers are 10% of the highs we saw.

[GobbleNut]

I think it was always assumed that hunting was compensatory mortality. And I believe that is likely the case in an expanding, or stable population. However with current trends in populations I believe we have potentially swung into the additive category. Every bird's life matters more when the population numbers are lower. We can't keep exploiting the resource like we could when numbers are 10% of the highs we saw.

For those that might not be familiar with "compensatory" versus "additive" mortality, simply stated, the concept of compensatory mortality revolves around the idea that hunting removes individual animals from populations that would most likely die from other causes anyway.  Additive mortality is the idea that hunting removes animals that would otherwise survive (not be taken out of the population by other mortality factors). 

Regarding wild turkeys, the evidence I personally have seen suggests to me that, with gobblers in particular, once they reach adulthood, they are less likely to die from those various "compensatory" mortality factors than are hens and young-of-the-year.  That fact was also one of the fundamental reasons (among others) for initiating spring gobbler seasons to begin with.  Again, simply stated, we are/were taking "surplus" gobblers out of turkey populations,...gobblers which are more resistant to compensatory mortality factors than other segments of the population.   

The questions we must ask in terms of human hunting are,..."At what point are we going past compensatory mortality into the additive mortality stage,...and at what point in that additive mortality stage is hunting becoming detrimental to the well-being of the resource?" 

I agree with nativeks that we have reached a point in some of these declining turkey populations where we have gone beyond the compensatory mortality threshold and to a point in additive mortality that we are removing more adult gobblers from those populations than we should be.  Wildlife managers are coming to grips with that fact, and we hunters must also,...that is, at least until we get back to those "expanding or stable population" conditions.

[nativeks]

I listened to the morning session of the Kansas Wildlife and Parks. They had outfitters come in and speak. The head of the outfitters association got up and said we need to reduce the season length, and take the entire state to one bird. Another said that properties he had 150-200 turkeys on now are totally devoid of birds. The birds are coming home to roost so to speak. I'll post the video when its available with the times so you can watch.

[deerhunt1988]

I listened to the morning session of the Kansas Wildlife and Parks. They had outfitters come in and speak. The head of the outfitters association got up and said we need to reduce the season length, and take the entire state to one bird. Another said that properties he had 150-200 turkeys on now are totally devoid of birds. The birds are coming home to roost so to speak. I'll post the video when its available with the times so you can watch.

Know things are getting grim when the outfitters start advocating for regs that affect their pocketbook! That actually helps put their situation into perspective for me.

[Archivist13]

For decades, the theory of spring gobbler hunting was "the gobblers are surplus,...we don't have to worry about how many are killed in the spring".  That theory is now changing to "wait a minute,...we have to have SOME gobblers (and enough gobblers) out there on the landscape during breeding season to start with!" 

Bingo! I brought this up earlier this spring and had some guy tell me that all gobblers are expendable and should be treated as such. I tried to explain that we need some left and he told me that the population will sustain itself with new hatches. I guess he doesn't care about having anything but jakes to hunt?!

[redleg06]

Here is a "Duhhh" moment for everyone:
The reason we are in the place we are with wild turkeys in those regions where they are declining is that reproductive success and survival of young turkeys to adulthood is not keeping up with adult mortality that is a result of all factors, including human hunting.  The key/solution to this dilemma at its fundamental level is found in solving the reproduction/population recruitment problem. 

Wild turkey managers fully understand the above statement.  They know that the solution is in reproduction rather than hunting restrictions.  HOWEVER, they also know that reversing the reproduction problem is dependent upon having adequate numbers of adult turkeys "on the ground" if and when that happens.  Managers are reaching that "protection mode" in many locations. 

For decades, the theory of spring gobbler hunting was "the gobblers are surplus,...we don't have to worry about how many are killed in the spring".  That theory is now changing to "wait a minute,...we have to have SOME gobblers (and enough gobblers) out there on the landscape during breeding season to start with!" 

THAT is the reason we are seeing reduced seasons and bag limits!  Wildlife managers are fully aware that hunting restrictions are not the answer,...but they also are aware that the ONLY hope for reversing the trend in declining numbers is to ensure there are adequate numbers of adult turkeys on the landscape to have ANY chance of recovery if and when the reproduction problem is solved.  (Note: the only other solution is artificial supplementation of populations which, in my opinion, will have to be implemented at some point in the future)

You nailed it.  Some of these states let their population get so low that, even in consecutive good hatch years, there just aren't that many turkey left to see the population really explode like it did in the early 2000's.  We (and other predators) started taking the booms in reproduction for granted and never pulled back when we started having bad hatches in consecutive years.

I think we need to be taking a page out of the waterfowler's play book and regulating/adjusting harvest based on population/reproduction numbers from year to year. In other words- if you know the population is at X right now, and there was a poor hatch/low poult per hen ratio this past year, then you need to plan accordingly with next year's (or two years out if you go off of poult per hen) harvest limits, etc.

They gather the data (most states do anyway) and then seem have no idea what to do with it. If nothing else, we've seen that these bird's population numbers can swing pretty widely, pretty rapidly. Having a system of regulation that takes multiple years to adjust/go in to effect, isn't ideal.

[GobbleNut]

For decades, the theory of spring gobbler hunting was "the gobblers are surplus,...we don't have to worry about how many are killed in the spring".  That theory is now changing to "wait a minute,...we have to have SOME gobblers (and enough gobblers) out there on the landscape during breeding season to start with!" 

Bingo! I brought this up earlier this spring and had some guy tell me that all gobblers are expendable and should be treated as such. I tried to explain that we need some left and he told me that the population will sustain itself with new hatches. I guess he doesn't care about having anything but jakes to hunt?!

To be clear, in an "ideal world" where turkeys are successfully reproducing enough that young turkeys reaching maturity are sustainably replacing mature turkeys that are dying from all the various mortality factors, then yes, the claim could be made that all gobblers are expendable in properly-timed spring seasons.  It is an entirely different matter to make that claim under the conditions that exist now in places that clearly have demonstrated that successful recruitment is not keeping up with mortality. 

Simply stated, you cannot replace dead mature gobblers (or hens) with jakes (or jennies) if there are no jakes/jennies surviving to adulthood, whether it be from nesting failure or poult mortality.  It does not take very many years of that happening until you have a real problem. 

[cuttinAR]

I listened to the morning session of the Kansas Wildlife and Parks. They had outfitters come in and speak. The head of the outfitters association got up and said we need to reduce the season length, and take the entire state to one bird. Another said that properties he had 150-200 turkeys on now are totally devoid of birds. The birds are coming home to roost so to speak. I'll post the video when its available with the times so you can watch.

Where I hunt in Kansas, now for two decades, there were more hunters this year than any year prior.  By a good margin.  And most complained about being unsuccessful and lack of birds.  It was as if they were living in 2005 and had no idea of the decline and just assumed Kansas was easy. 

[Paulmyr]

For decades, the theory of spring gobbler hunting was "the gobblers are surplus,...we don't have to worry about how many are killed in the spring".  That theory is now changing to "wait a minute,...we have to have SOME gobblers (and enough gobblers) out there on the landscape during breeding season to start with!" 

Bingo! I brought this up earlier this spring and had some guy tell me that all gobblers are expendable and should be treated as such. I tried to explain that we need some left and he told me that the population will sustain itself with new hatches. I guess he doesn't care about having anything but jakes to hunt?!

To be clear, in an "ideal world" where turkeys are successfully reproducing enough that young turkeys reaching maturity are sustainably replacing mature turkeys that are dying from all the various mortality factors, then yes, the claim could be made that all gobblers are expendable in properly-timed spring seasons.  It is an entirely different matter to make that claim under the conditions that exist now in places that clearly have demonstrated that successful recruitment is not keeping up with mortality. 

Simply stated, you cannot replace dead mature gobblers (or hens) with jakes (or jennies) if there are no jakes/jennies surviving to adulthood, whether it be from nesting failure or poult mortality.  It does not take very many years of that happening until you have a real problem.

I've heard it stated like this on a number of occasions. You need to stop the downward spiral 1st before you can have a chance at rebuilding turkey populations. Most seem to think it's just a matter of a  good hatch or 2. If them good hatches occur with dwindling populations it might be enough for stabilization. It will take a number of good hatches to get populations back to boom the periods of the past for areas that are hurting now.

I keep hearing look at Arkansas as a metric as to why limiting harvest and season lengths don't work like it was supposed to cure the problem right away. From what I've read, up until the recent no Jake rules, Jake's made over 50% of the harvest in Arkansas. Tough to rebuild a population of gobblers when your killing more juveniles than the adults that are being removed.

[nativeks]

I listened to the morning session of the Kansas Wildlife and Parks. They had outfitters come in and speak. The head of the outfitters association got up and said we need to reduce the season length, and take the entire state to one bird. Another said that properties he had 150-200 turkeys on now are totally devoid of birds. The birds are coming home to roost so to speak. I'll post the video when its available with the times so you can watch.

Where I hunt in Kansas, now for two decades, there were more hunters this year than any year prior.  By a good margin.  And most complained about being unsuccessful and lack of birds.  It was as if they were living in 2005 and had no idea of the decline and just assumed Kansas was easy.

They showed more data this afternoon but I wasnt able to snip fast enough. Population here by their metrics peaked in 08. Ive said 07 for alot of years but it close enough. We have one commissioner that is a big fall hunter and has blocked biologist attempts to close the fall season as stated in our management plan. They asked the outfitters about fall hunting and none of them there allow fall birds to be taken. One even said its a poor management practice with our current population. The look on the commissioner's face was priceless.

NR numbers have stayed relatively flat even as bird numbers plummeted.

The head of the outfitters association said he is worried that the only place his grandkids will get to see a turkey soon is a museum behind glass.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[Hook hanger]

Sounds like KS is going to reduce season and possibly the 2nd tag opportunities in the near future.

[deerhunt1988]

I keep hearing look at Arkansas as a metric as to why limiting harvest and season lengths don't work like it was supposed to cure the problem right away. From what I've read, up until the recent no Jake rules, Jake's made over 50% of the harvest in Arkansas. Tough to rebuild a population of gobblers when your killing more juveniles than the adults that are being removed.

Except the jake rule isn't really "recent" there. It was implemented for 2011. As you can see below, after a decade of not killing jakes and a reduced season, their recruitment hasn't been helped. Data definitely doesn't support some of the current theories. There are bigger problems than "hens not getting bred/delayed breeding".

[deerhunt1988]

I listened to the morning session of the Kansas Wildlife and Parks. They had outfitters come in and speak. The head of the outfitters association got up and said we need to reduce the season length, and take the entire state to one bird. Another said that properties he had 150-200 turkeys on now are totally devoid of birds. The birds are coming home to roost so to speak. I'll post the video when its available with the times so you can watch.

Where I hunt in Kansas, now for two decades, there were more hunters this year than any year prior.  By a good margin.  And most complained about being unsuccessful and lack of birds.  It was as if they were living in 2005 and had no idea of the decline and just assumed Kansas was easy.

They showed more data this afternoon but I wasnt able to snip fast enough. Population here by their metrics peaked in 08. Ive said 07 for alot of years but it close enough. We have one commissioner that is a big fall hunter and has blocked biologist attempts to close the fall season as stated in our management plan. They asked the outfitters about fall hunting and none of them there allow fall birds to be taken. One even said its a poor management practice with our current population. The look on the commissioner's face was priceless.

NR numbers have stayed relatively flat even as bird numbers plummeted.

The head of the outfitters association said he is worried that the only place his grandkids will get to see a turkey soon is a museum behind glass.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

The most surprising thing to me is the narrow gap between numbers of residents and non-resident hunters. I was reading through Nebraska's turkey report and noticed that non-rez are buying MORE permits than residents now! And killing more birds. Refer to the chart below. States need to start taking better care of their RESIDENTS and quit worrying about the few extra bucks generated from non-rez turkey permit sales.