COLLABORATIVE RESEARCH ANNOUNCEMENT (Turkeys For Tomorrow)

[GobbleNut]

Glad to see some representation from TFT finally showing up here!  Also good to see the proposals, although brief, as to what research/studies are in the works and their purpose. 

A couple of points:  Eggshell's concern about oversight of the funding for these projects is right on target.  Funding projects without proper oversight as to how the money is being spent tends to result in inefficient use of those funds.  We can only trust that diligent oversight is in place. The term "administrative costs" has a tendency to raise its ugly head all too often in these endeavors, regardless of the initial good intentions of the folks involved.   

Secondly, as others have pointed out, studies and research do little except generate data,...unless there are concrete solutions envisioned and proposed upfront to the problems anticipated by it. To put it in laymen's terms, every study should start with "here's what we think the problem is",...which is either confirmed or dismissed by the research/study,...but there also needs to be a "and here's what we plan to do about it" tacked on the end. 

All too often, it seems, we do research and studies with no clear vision as to how to solve the problem after it is identified.  Let's hope the efforts by TFT and its associated entities are doing a better job of anticipating, and subsequently implementing, solutions than we have seen in the past by others. 

All that being said, if all of the "i's are dotted" and the "t's crossed", we turkey hunters should be ready to pony up.  With this initial post from TFT, I am more inclined to jump on board than I was previously. 

[arkrem870]

We know kentucky already has a late(r) opening date which is now accepted as the answer for failing populations. So we can about rule that out as most hens should be bred before season opens. If anything the upper part of the state may lag behind slightly. So moving the season back more is likely still on the table as it's trending. The limit is two which I'd think is reasonable.  I guess further restrictions on public land will be coming since the numbers of non resident hunters hunting public land have increase significantly. Next I'd guess they will find nest initiations in the 65-75%.   And predation and wet weather patterns will significantly hurt nest/poult survival.  We aren't sure on how to effectively control these two.

[TurkeysForTomorrow]

Glad to see THP giving back some of the profits they've made by exploiting our public lands and state agency budgets. After all the public land opportunities they've helped reduce (most recently in TN, right after being paid by TWRA), the very least they can do is throw a little back after screwing public land hunters across multiple states in the U.S.

Likely fundraising through their social media channels. Buy their merchandise and they will donate $5 kinda deal.

Why they'd partner with them is beyond my comprehension.  Immediately makes me skeptical of TFT. When someone exploits a public resource for profit changing the fabric of public land turkey hunting through increased pressure and regulation it's not to be celebrated.

Turkeys For Tomorrow (TFT) was founded by veteran turkey hunters and our whole mission statement revolves around a "forturkeys" mindset. We were founded 16 months ago and in this short time we have laced our boots up and gone to work for turkey hunters nationwide. We have committed funding to 4 crucial research projects and put boots on the ground in multiple states... some of the research projects have not been announced yet.  It's worth mentioning, most of the states we have built a relationships with have been very approachable, some have accepted us with open arms and welcomed our mission, and others have not been as accepting that's just part of the everyday grind we face as we go to work for turkey hunters. This is a process and we are working hard daily to get farther along and work towards implementing solutions to reverse the downward trend seen across areas of the country. The point is we are actively seeking ways to help the wild turkey, through financial means and any other possible avenues, if you want the opportunity to steer our organization towards solutions and additional research, I encourage you to join and let your voice be heard, this is going to take everyone. You may ask, "Who are these folks who have decades and decades of turkey hunting prosperity and bliss and what gives them the right to tell me what to do?" You would be right. We do not have that right, however we are trying to make an impact to benefit the wildlife we all love. To get the right answer to any problem someone first has to ask the right question and to proceed from there with a dialogue among the turkey hunting community. This the attempt of each participant to do just that.

We are not here to tell you what to do or how to hunt. You are hunters and you are responsible for the miraculous comeback of these grand birds once. You know what is right and what is wrong. You are hunters and you know the situation in the area you hunt. Our goal is to ask the right questions and to put the money we raise towards the best possible cause. If we have done that and only one of these questions is answered and addressed correctly we have made a difference. Imagine that all these are the right questions and they are answered and addressed correctly. Who's to say the best days of turkey hunting are behind us? You are hunters and only you can force the scientific, moral, ethical, and political changes needed to accomplish the goal of reversing a perfect storm that is currently wreaking havoc on wild turkeys in some areas, we are here to assist the hunting community and to make the above happen. However there's a question you must all ask yourself, if not you, if not hunters, then who??? I encourage everyone to go to turkeysfortomorrow.org and explore the research we have initiated and the individuals associated with our organization. Thank you.

[GobbleNut]

Turkeys For Tomorrow (TFT) was founded by veteran turkey hunters and our whole mission statement revolves around a "forturkeys" mindset. We were founded 16 months ago and in this short time we have laced our boots up and gone to work for turkey hunters nationwide. We have committed funding to 4 crucial research projects and put boots on the ground in multiple states... some of the research projects have not been announced yet.  It's worth mentioning, most of the states we have built a relationships with have been very approachable, some have accepted us with open arms and welcomed our mission, and others have not been as accepting that's just part of the everyday grind we face as we go to work for turkey hunters. This is a process and we are working hard daily to get farther along and work towards implementing solutions to reverse the downward trend seen across areas of the country. The point is we are actively seeking ways to help the wild turkey, through financial means and any other possible avenues, if you want the opportunity to steer our organization towards solutions and additional research, I encourage you to join and let your voice be heard, this is going to take everyone. You may ask, "Who are these folks who have decades and decades of turkey hunting prosperity and bliss and what gives them the right to tell me what to do?" You would be right. We do not have that right, however we are trying to make an impact to benefit the wildlife we all love. To get the right answer to any problem someone first has to ask the right question and to proceed from there with a dialogue among the turkey hunting community. This the attempt of each participant to do just that.

We are not here to tell you what to do or how to hunt. You are hunters and you are responsible for the miraculous comeback of these grand birds once. You know what is right and what is wrong. You are hunters and you know the situation in the area you hunt. Our goal is to ask the right questions and to put the money we raise towards the best possible cause. If we have done that and only one of these questions is answered and addressed correctly we have made a difference. Imagine that all these are the right questions and they are answered and addressed correctly. Who's to say the best days of turkey hunting are behind us? You are hunters and only you can force the scientific, moral, ethical, and political changes needed to accomplish the goal of reversing a perfect storm that is currently wreaking havoc on wild turkeys in some areas, we are here to assist the hunting community and to make the above happen. However there's a question you must all ask yourself, if not you, if not hunters, then who??? I encourage everyone to go to turkeysfortomorrow.org and explore the research we have initiated and the individuals associated with our organization. Thank you.

  Again, thanks for coming to OG and starting to participate here.  I think that will go a long way to helping you get the word out. (We need a link to where we can get involved) 

There are a number of us here that have a past history of being involved in research, studies, projects, and the like that I believe would be interested in helping to achieve some of the TFT goals,...and expedite that process as much as possible.  We have a daunting task ahead of us, and we all need to be involved in a positive fashion.  Kudos to the leadership of TFT for initiating something of this magnitude. 

I will just reiterate one of the points I made above.  As much thought needs to be put into potential remedies to our wild turkey population problems on the back end as the thought given to finding the causes on the front end.  We all should have some idea of where we are headed in terms of those remedies.  Granted, that is a pretty simplistic statement to make for a very complicated problem, but in reality, those are the answers that most turkey hunters want to hear in addition to the proposed research in finding the causes.   

[TurkeysForTomorrow]

https://turkeysfortomorrow.org

[Bolandstrutters]

Personally I don't think we have time for these multi year studies.  What we know for sure, at least here in Missouri, is that nest success is just about on par with what it was in the glory days.  Poult survival is what has dramatically declined over the last 15 years.  Sink every dollar into habitat and we will see positive results.  Determining when a turkey gobbles is not going to make poults survive.  Good luck with your organization so.  We are all on the same team, just have different opinions on how to reach our goal.

[eggshell]

Personally I don't think we have time for these multi year studies.  What we know for sure, at least here in Missouri, is that nest success is just about on par with what it was in the glory days.  Poult survival is what has dramatically declined over the last 15 years.  Sink every dollar into habitat and we will see positive results.  Determining when a turkey gobbles is not going to make poults survive.  Good luck with your organization so.  We are all on the same team, just have different opinions on how to reach our goal.

I agree we have an emmediate problem, but in the world of Natural Sciences things do not happen rapidly. Causation nor resolution come fast. It takes time. The problem lies in recognizing a problem before it becomes catastrophic and cutting off the root cause when it addressable. Just like in medicine preventitive is better than reactive. Sadly we are often asleep at the wheel and enjoying the feast when in fact we are eating the last pig. Only when the chef tells us we ate the last pig do we cry out, "what happened" and where can we get more pigs.

[GobbleNut]

Personally I don't think we have time for these multi year studies.  What we know for sure, at least here in Missouri, is that nest success is just about on par with what it was in the glory days.  Poult survival is what has dramatically declined over the last 15 years.  Sink every dollar into habitat and we will see positive results.  Determining when a turkey gobbles is not going to make poults survive.  Good luck with your organization so.  We are all on the same team, just have different opinions on how to reach our goal.

I agree we have an emmediate problem, but in the world of Natural Sciences things do not happen rapidly. Causation nor resolution come fast. It takes time. The problem lies in recognizing a problem before it becomes catastrophic and cutting off the root cause when it addressable. Just like in medicine preventitive is better than reactive. Sadly we are often asleep at the wheel and enjoying the feast when in fact we are eating the last pig. Only when the chef tells us we ate the last pig do we cry out, "what happened" and where can we get more pigs.

We are entering our "off season" and this is a good thread to keep near the top, so let's just take this one topic at a time and dissect it a bit,...starting with the habitat issue.

Presumption #1:  "Habitat degradation/loss of habitat is a primary issue"
Presumption #2:  "Something can be done about this problem"

Existing circumstances: 
1)  Private lands:
    Private landowners control habitat on those lands, of which a vast majority are not managing those lands on behalf of wild turkeys.  Without incentives, presumably mostly financial (i.e...such as the CRP program), landowners are unlikely to change their land management practices to benefit turkeys.  Those that are willing are most likely already doing so.

2) Public lands:
    Point A)  Significant manipulations of habitat on public properties comes down to funding and willingness of agencies to invest in it.  Existing public policy and funding priorities do not favor such investment regarding the expenditure of publicly-generated funds.  To the general public, significant funding for single-species management is not likely to be acceptable, as has been demonstrated by existing policy.
    Point B)  Habitat manipulation to benefit turkeys on public land therefore is most likely to either be privately funded or as a result of commercial use of commodities found on those lands.  The amount of funding from either source would likely be insignificant compared to the existing need and related cost.  Furthermore, commercial uses of public lands (i.e...logging, etc.) that are financially viable are not necessarily compatible with the habitat manipulations/benefits needed for wild turkeys, nor are the impacts of such manipulations acceptable to the general public in our existing social climate. 

Summary:  Large-scale habitat manipulation on the landscape would, without question, be beneficial to wild turkeys if that manipulation were directed towards improving wild turkey habitat.  However, under existing circumstances, the feasibility of such would require similar large-scale funding sources and a level of cooperation from the agencies, other entities, and general public that is, most likely, unrealistic to expect would occur.   

Extenuating circumstances:  In addition, climatic factors are in play in this equation, as well.  Habitat conditions are changing as a result of this.  The impacts of such are a wild card in the entire discussion about habitat and the feasibility of its manipulations on behalf of wild turkeys. 

TFT and other input welcomed on the above commentary....   

[runngun]

As long as Turkeys for Tomorrow is doing something, then I will DO SOMETHING. At least they're trying and we should definitely Do our best help and be a part of it. Providing funds and 1st hand information such as gobbling reports, other observations.

In Louisiana we are hurting ourselves. I got a email from LDWF the other day that showed the number of gobblers report harvest data. Reported LESS THAN 3000 BIRDS TAKEN!!!! THIS IS PITIFUL AND A BALD FACE LIE.
Probably that many birds killed opening weekend.

Have a good one
Bo

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

[Wasp]

It is good to see someone doing something.  Would be nice to see states actually do something for a change.  Hunters spend all this money on ever increasing license fees and drawing fees for lottery hunts, yet no ability to sustain a turkey population from the state DNR.  Isn't this sort of thing their stated purpose.  In my state here is the states purpose for the NC Wildlife Resource Commission

The N.C. Wildlife Resources Commission (NCWRC) is the state government agency created by the General Assembly in 1947 to conserve and sustain the state's fish and wildlife resources through research, scientific management, wise use and public input.


If your state has to hire an outside party to come in and figure out why you have declining turkey population, it would seem prudent to fire that states DNR and take the money you were paying them ($85mil in NC) and hire the third party and let them manage it full time.

[eggshell]

Here's a few links to what is being done by North Carolina's Wildlife agency.

https://www.ncwildlife.org/Portals/0/Conserving/documents/2015WildlifeActionPlan/NC-WAP-2015-All-Documents.pdf

https://www.ncwildlife.org/Connect-With-Us/Blog/wild-turkeys-in-north-carolina-the-long-road-to-recovery

https://www.ncwildlife.org/Learning/Species/Birds/Wild-Turkey#2489432-surveysbr-research

https://www.nwtf.org/about/state-news/team-studies-wild-turkey-NC

[GobbleNut]

Good information, eggshell.  I am pretty certain similar documents and studies are available for most, if not all states, across the country.  At the end of the day, all of it comes back to one question that comes to my mind:  That is, how are state agencies (and non-profits) applying the information gleaned from these studies and research to sustain healthy wild turkey populations? 

Simply put, Average Joe Turkey Hunter wants to see a correlation between how his license money (and donations) are being spent and how wild turkeys are going to benefit from it.  Research/studies without explanation of those perceived benefits and/or how they will be applied "on the ground" to improve wild turkey populations after-the-fact are becoming less and less acceptable to sportsmen who are witnessing these sharp declines in turkey numbers. 

...Just a word to the wise among those that are spending our license dollars and asking for more... 

[Shiloh]

Is it wise for a state wildlife agency to sit back and watch what other states are doing and what benefits come from the changes or is it better to just try something and see if it works?   Somebody has to take the first step, but I'm glad my state isn't just throwing darts. 

[eggshell]

Oh Gobblenut, that is a discussion in and of it's own. Where would I start?

Gobblenut knows I worked over 30 years for a state Wildlife Agency and I do have some perspective that most of you don't. One of my points of contention is that agency's don't clearly communicate to sportsmen what they are doing and what is planned for the future. They will post press releases and strategic plans on web sites and talk when someone ask them. Yet sportsmen want to see tangible evidence, but data and research is not always tangible to the guy in the woods. So much happens behind the scenes and is technically elaborate. I think there is a problem that many mangers/biologist just don't want to be involved with the public and there are some who simply think they know more and are above it. The best public servants are humble and engaging. There is an old adage, "perception is a large part of reality". If people can't see what your doing they truly believe you are doing nothing. Universities and professors are (in my opinion ) even worse at this, they only share if they think they're getting money. All this doesn't mean they aren't doing the work.

I can only toot my own horn here. You know I was superintendent of a State Fish Hatchery. I was responsible the production of up to 5 million fish a year and so much of it was done out of sight. Some would say we were wasting money, but I knew better. I spent 10 years researching how do raise Muskies better and was proud to say I played a very large role in turning around that program in our state. Now the guy who went Muskie fishing and caught nothing might say, "The state is not doing enough, there are no Muskies here". My doors were always open and my staff would walk anyone through the hatchery whenever they stopped to visit. Where we went the extra step was we would join the clubs and organizations and participate in their events. I would go to their tournaments and participate. I would tell the officers, pair me up with an angler and I'd ride in their boat for the day. I can tell you it was usually like an FBI interrogation, but I understood. I would speak at their awards banquets. We would invite the officers to run survey nets with us and for egg collection. We would have management round table discussions.  I would usually get called a lazy MFing SOB and government parasite at least once at all these events. This is why many public servants avoid outdoors groups. Especially when they are doing what they love and have a passion for, and usually making a lower than average salary for professional people.

I also have been retired for over 15 years now and I wish I could say those that followed my generation have held the torch high, but I am sad to say in many cases they have not. I see less engagement than ever. I myself have inquired about certain management practices and been given the cold shoulder and told I was out of date. Now there is still a lot of good in the agencies, but I do think things have fallen a bit. This is symptomatic across society right now, as people push more personal agendas. One issue that has greatly hindered agencies is funding. Many states have cut budgets drastically and I am sad to say Governors and legislatures often see Wildlife as a low priority. They just don't see sportsmen as a player in their political survival. Without people and money work does not happen. This brings into light where organizations like NWTF and Turkeys for Tomorrow can be a huge player. Not only money but in man power. I used volunteers in my operation and sportsmen would usually be excited to pitch in. Yet many managers don't want the untrained around. That is bad thinking, it usually take very little to train someone to do a task. For example, we would raise 100,000 steelhead every year and they would need to be marked before release and that was a daunting task. So we reached out to the steelheader's clubs and invited them to help. They jumped at the opportunity. So with a short training program they were ready and we'd have a weekend event. All the Steelhead would get marked in a couple days and save my crew lot's of time. One of the valuable parts of this is we worked and talked with them for those days and they had tangible evidence of what we do. It's not rocket science it just needs some open minds and cooperation on all sides.

Shiloh, About all the states trade info and resources. Most have regional conferences where they present studies and talk strategies. I participated in a mid-west conference every year where 17 states would get together and share their work. UNiversities would participate too. No one is working on an island

[Conch]

All these "so called" smart minds, pimped out by these youtube heroes, collecting funds for this knee jerk research and they still have not figured out the main cause for Turkey numbers falling at a rapid pace is too many, kill at all cost hunters, kiliing too many Turkeys, period. Never been to college, but have spent all my 50 years in the woods. I dare some of you educated folks to prove my statement false.