Unfortunately it must be all about the money

[eggshell]

I can think of 3 things our DNR, GFP, or whatever your state calls them, can help turkey populations without mandating beard length requirements. It frankly makes me very sad to see hunters this willing to just keep dumping regulations like this, and hoping one of them sticks. It is disgusting. I was a waterfowl hunter before I was a turkey hunter. Take a lesson from the waterfowl hunters, don't become them. Duck hunters under stand other duck hunters, and they hate each other.

The great thing about turkey hunting is that we all for the most part get along. I can stop and chat with a stranger on the side of the road in the spring about turkeys for an hour. We all genuinely enjoy it.

As for raising the turkey populations, the good answers are not the easiest solutions. Expanding predator populations of coyote, fox, raccoon, and in the south I can only assume pigs wreak havoc on turkeys. They beat up deer too, but not as bad as the birds. Hunting these is not going to help, the same as our hunting is not declining turkey populations like so many seem to think here. Hunting is simply an ineffective tool for reducing populations. Snow geese are basically a free for all, no limits, no regulations, and they gain numbers every year. We somehow need to step up in trapping. I plan to do a lot more varmint/predator hunting this winter, but it won't do that much. Trapping is a legitimate tool, but with low fur prices, there are not much incentive for most people. I honestly do not know the best way to go about increasing predator harvest. I know I'd like to see a depredation style system, where landowners can call those on a list to trap or hunt their land.

The other thing we have to keep in mind is that our turkey populations are kind of a first time thing. We don't have many decades of data to draw from. Somewhat in the 80's, but really the last 30 years is what our current turkey population stems from. There's more than one study that shows that turkey density, and lack of suitable habitat is a huge driving factor for some declining populations. Not all states are seeing declines mind you. Some are increasing yet. It is very possible we have hit the capacity of turkeys for the land. The only long-term solution if the turkeys we have today are not enough for hunters, is to increase habitat, mainly nesting habitat. I'm a huge proponent of state leasing land for wildlife, CRP and other programs working with farmers, and basically anything that returns land to a natural and effective state for wildlife. Well human populations are growing fast, so something has to give.

That is a well thought out post and well said. I generally agree.

[eggshell]

After commenting on scattergun's post I got to thinking. There's been a lot of discussion about predators and their impact. I then saw an article on a browser's homepage about an anti fur group shaming some celebrity. This triggered a thought in my mind. I wonder if anyone in any agency or University has compared turkey population trends to the fur market decline. The fur market pretty much went bust in the 90s. I know this because I worked in the fur business as a side job. I graded fur in auctions. Our company went bust mid-nineties and we closed down the company. We just weren't profitable enough anymore. By 2,000 raccoons were out of control in my area and mostly across the nation. So, I wonder is there a correlation. I know agencies keep track of turkey flocks and fur sales. I think it would be  pretty doable to see if turkey populations started to decline once predators populations exploded due to the fur market bust. I know we handled tens of thousands of pelts in our auctions and it dwindled down to where we had so small a volume buyers wouldn't come. Just for fun here is a picture of me and my grading crew....

[quavers59]

  If there is one thing I learned from this Thread- it is indeed- All about the Money.
  PS- if you want to take a Fall Hen and there are plenty around- take one.
   If you want to take that Spring Jake - go right ahead.

[Bowguy]

Tom it's not just turkey though that's what we're discussing. It's bad and been getting worse. I agree w the limiting ourselves. Leave seed for stock.
There's few turkey around yet we still have numerous permits available. North Jersey at least in my area is deer beat yet does are unlimited. Tuesday I went out w 4 beagles that are run year round and 5 guys in a great cover spot yet not one rabbit started. Even the squirrels are hurting due to last years mast failure yet nothing changes. So much for management in our state. The game Dept are accountants, there's no way no how any sort of management of any resource except of course the bears we can't shoot that are everywhere
I will say the over harvest of turkey is on us though. It's the one animal imo if you know not how to hunt you won't damage the population all that much as you can't be consistent. The experienced guys do the damage. We need to help but easing off temporarily and totally not shooting any hens even when allowed imo.

[Tom007]

Tom it's not just turkey though that's what we're discussing. It's bad and been getting worse. I agree w the limiting ourselves. Leave seed for stock.
There's few turkey around yet we still have numerous permits available. North Jersey at least in my area is deer beat yet does are unlimited. Tuesday I went out w 4 beagles that are run year round and 5 guys in a great cover spot yet not one rabbit started. Even the squirrels are hurting due to last years mast failure yet nothing changes. So much for management in our state. The game Dept are accountants, there's no way no how any sort of management of any resource except of course the bears we can't shoot that are everywhere
I will say the over harvest of turkey is on us though. It's the one animal imo if you know not how to hunt you won't damage the population all that much as you can't be consistent. The experienced guys do the damage. We need to help but easing off temporarily and totally not shooting any hens even when allowed imo.

Agreed, this years deer season was the worst I have experienced since 1980. I heard one shot heard on opening day. That's real concerning. Only heard 3 shots all week. I only saw 2 small bucks that I passed on all week. I am concerned with the amount of does I am seeing, pretty much none...it seems like everything is on a down swing...

[quavers59]

   The best solution  as,I wrote which hopefully  will happen next year is to make " a Max Limit"-- Statewide on the number of Gobblers any 1 Man can take in NJ.
    Drop it down to 5 Max or even 3 Gobblers max in NJ.   

[Tom007]

   The best solution  as,I wrote which hopefully  will happen next year is to make " a Max Limit"-- Statewide on the number of Gobblers any 1 Man can take in NJ.
    Drop it down to 5 Max or even 3 Gobblers max in NJ.

Yes, I thought this would happen this year. The only thing I could not find relating to the 2021 data was how many permits were actually purchased? There was around 500 less birds recorded, does that coincide with less permits purchased due to hunters returning to work from the COVID era? Would love to match that up....

[Which Gun]

It's about making MONEY. Here you in North Carolina they raised hunting fees that they made a big deal about not having raised fees in years but added salt water fishing license. You could fish in county of residence with live bait they did away with that. You got a bear tag with license now that cost money.   Like what's been said they're selling licenses and permits regardless if your successful or not.  Insurance companies are loving it less deer collisions they have to pay for. Not one predator walking the woods is going to pass on a nest of eggs or even the hen sitting it. In the Old Days country folk took care of predators!!!! They killed hawks,raccoons opossum, snakes, foxes pretty much anything after there chickens and livestock. The tree huggers weren't much of an influence as they are today. Here you in North Carolina they reintroduced the Red Wolf. WHY. TREE HUGGERS. A lot of money wasted on this project that could have helped quail and turkey habit. In a five county area we can't shoot coyotes at night trying to protect the wolf. I've seen three coyotes in two nights coming home from work unable to pull the trigger.

  I lease land to hunt good numbers of deer and turkeys. I'm on that land right much predator calling.  Anything that comes to the call gets shot. It's amazing what comes to a dying rabbit. I also keep corn out during the off season especially during winter to help them get through till spring.


I try doing my part because most sitting at the state capital aren't hunting the peasants land.

That's my two cents.

[Bowguy]

Amazing moment. First time I've ever agreed w quavers sorta. They ain't gonna change nothing imo though. And we need to leave the hens alone, saving them is more important. Remember that and leave em alone quavers. Can't preach about what's good for the flock and than do what's counterproductive to it.

[quavers59]

Bowguy/Foggy Mountain - we have indeed disagreed on another site.
   My area of New York is overrun with Hens. So,I took one- case closed.
   The situation  is completely  different  in North New Jersey. Not many Turkeys- although the numbers are coming back in the areas,I hunt.

[quavers59]

  Hoping for a much better Spring in 2022 in New Jersey. And hopefully  a milder Winter in North New Jersey.

[nativeks]

Its definitely heading downhill. This year I have zero wintering turkeys on my creek. When I bought the place in 2013 I had 18 gobblers and 50+ hens. Last year was 2 gobblers and 10 hens. This year they are gone. I plant milo/millet food plots for the birds. I have winter wheat food plots. Ive increased native grass areas and plum thickets. Its disheartning to see all my blood and sweat not help the birds.

[dirtnap]

Its definitely heading downhill. This year I have zero wintering turkeys on my creek. When I bought the place in 2013 I had 18 gobblers and 50+ hens. Last year was 2 gobblers and 10 hens. This year they are gone. I plant milo/millet food plots for the birds. I have winter wheat food plots. Ive increased native grass areas and plum thickets. Its disheartning to see all my blood and sweat not help the birds.

Dang.  That is disheartening.  I hope things turn around for you in a positive way in your area. 

I haven't hunted KS in several years and it was obvious on a downward trend then.