Shooting Hens???

[GobbleNut]

Good discussion.  We have had it before, but it is worth rehashing occasionally so folks understand all the dynamics involved and can make their own decisions about shooting hens wherever they hunt.  The bottom line on that decision comes down to understanding the current status and health of the turkey population you are hunting.  Again, in healthy populations where population recruitment (young turkeys surviving to adulthood) is stable, taking a reasonable number of hens through fall hunting will not impact that population. 

Personally, I would recommend that IF you are hunting hens in the fall season, follow this one guideline.  Most fall flocks will be divided into two basic groups of birds.  Those are mature gobbler groupings, and hen groupings that consist of mature hens and their young-of-the-year.  In those hen flocks, there will be a discernable size difference between those adult hens and the young birds.  My guideline: shoot the young-of-the-year birds and leave the adult hens.

My reason/rationale:  Those adult hens with young have demonstrated the ability to pull off a successful hatch.  That may be a result of random good fortune...or perhaps it is the result of some nesting and/or survival tactics that have made those hens more likely to be successful in raising a clutch of young.  Either way, leaving those adult hens in the woods and continuing to give them a chance to breed in the future is the best choice to make. 

For a lot of folks, there is a tendency to think "bigger is better" and they pick out a large turkey out of a flock to shoot.  In my opinion, when shooting a bird out of a fall hen flock, that is not the right choice to make when trying to insure your turkey flock has its best chance to thrive in the future.  If you want a turkey in the fall and have the option, shoot yourself a young bird....and leave those adult hens!    

[eggshell]

Gobblenut, it is uncanny how many things in our philosophies align.

For me it is an absolute sin to kill the boss/brood hen in a flock. If I am shooting a non gobbler I am looking over a flock for a young male or a subordinate hen. If you've fall hunted much it's pretty easy to pick out the brood hens. The one purring and loud course yelping is her. Pass her up she is the one that keeps the whole flock safe. All the other mature hens will be, like you stated, bigger and more vocal. I like to say it like this, kill the chirppers....fall hunters know what I mean. Smaller yearling hens that have been barren will be mixed in and they are usually just a bit bigger than YOY and not vocal. I would shoot one of them as well.  However, in a healthy flock one less hen is not going to be a population crusher, heck a coyote might pick off the boss hen tomorrow, but probably not. I probably put way more analysis into my fall hunting than I ever do spring. In the spring if it comes and has a long beard, it dies. Sometimes even a short beard dies.

[Sir-diealot]

In this area the turkey are in very serious trouble, there are people here that wipe out every woods and every hedgerow in site. There are not many turkey seen anymore. I saw some turkey this week, young jake group of about 12, first turkey I have seen since last Spring hunting  season that I can remember. (saw five the final day of the season) In this area killing a hen is killing the future, we can't afford to lose them here, we need them for breeding. We also need to get people to start thinking of the future generations, they will have nothing here in just a few short years.

[eggshell]

good point sir-diealot, there are areas that are of concern and those factors should be part of the rational. My stance on that is, don't kill any fall birds in a problem area. The state agency is incumbent to regulate this, if they aren't they're in error. I will add, that I have shared my thoughts in support of fall hunting, but I do concede that every area is different and should be considered individually. My comments are all made with the assumption of a healthy flock. It's fair to say if your state agency allows it legally then they feel the flock is healthy enough to sustain it. Of course we can all site instances where they have been derelict. Each individual must make their own decision for there hunting ground.   

[trkehunr93]

In my state, VA, the fall kill at one time was over 10,000 birds.  In the mid-90's our DGIF made changes to remove the overlap with the general firearms deer season with the theory being we would see a large population increase.  That didn't happen but exponentially the fall kill dropped dramatically since the thought was that a large portion of these turkeys killed were by deer hunters who had not seen a deer but a gang of turkeys came by and since they were a legal target they were shot.  The real fact was that deer hunting was becoming more accessible and popular as deer populations increased and outdoor tv was gaining ground, i.e. Bill Jordan and Realtree Outdoors.  Now our average fall kill is between 2,000-2900 birds and we have since adjusted the seasons to remove the overlap with the early muzzleloader season and expanded fall hunting opportunities into January.  The truth is there just aren't that many fall turkey hunters anymore in my state where fall turkey hunting has a long, rich tradition especially with dogs (John Byrne, for those that know the name).  Spring is King anymore.  So IMO killing a hen in the fall has minimal impact as our hen population is quite plentiful in my part of the state and as long as it's legal in between deer hunts I'll grab my shotgun and try to call a bird in.  A fall flock on the roost in the morning is a symphony to me.

[Kyle_Ott]

Fools shoot hens.

But foolishness seems to be abundant just about everywhere these days.

[scattergun]

I'm a firm believer that killing a hen is killing the future and do not take them.

Same here.

Its not like we have an over abundance of turkeys. 

I recall seeing a thread recently about a fellow who shot a fall hen.  He was actually proud of it and was apparently seeking praise for the "achievement."

It's legal to do so so go for it, but oh my God I would be entirely embarrassed to admit that I shot a hen. It's just too easy. And it does not help the turkey population at all.

Just my opinion.

If hunting hens is that easy, then you do in fact have an over abundance of turkeys. It's never easy. Don't you dare shame another hunter for being proud of what they have done legally. Your opinion on the effects of killing hens, is your opinion, nothing wrong with it. You saying someone should be embarrassed because they are proud of killing a fall hen turkey is absolutely despicable. I've lost all respect for your opinion.

[eggshell]

I agree scattergun, but maybe not as harshly. I hope I never get caught up so emotionally that I would shame someone for a legal harvest. It's wrong and inconsiderate. He has every right to be proud of his hen, he worked hard for it and obeyed the laws. Ethics are not regulated by governments, they are acted on by individuals and are developed by each person's own perspective and thus tenuous. I have watched ethical discussions derail so often it is actually annoying. We will always make our own choices. The best standard we can apply to others is not to judge them on our own feelings, but by what is actually legal, beyond that is an individual choice.

If you read through this thread you know I support fall hunting and yes hen harvest in a healthy flock and as is legal. I use science and biology to determine my position and so does the agencies that regulate harvest. Most of the opposition I see is heavily weighted by feelings and very little science, including the judgmental statements.

[quavers59]

     In certain areas of New York- the Turkey Population  has roared back with a Tremendous  amount of Hen Turkeys now.
  See back in 2015- the DEC cut the Fall Turkey Season from 6 weeks to just 2 weeks. In addition the Bag Limit was lowered by 50% to 1 Fall Turkey. And in addition  the DEC Moved the Fall Turkey Opener way back from the former October 1st opener with everything  else like Pheasant  and Squirrel, etc. Moved the Season all the way back to- " this year"- October 16th.
   So 2021 was the 7th year for the Turkeys to come back in Population  and in "alot" of areas in New York- this is what has happened. 
   Now when,I shot that Fall Hen in late October, I had a good 8 or so Hens in front of me after Flydown. The Jakes were Roosted back a good 70 yards. Perhaps 3 of them.
  Since there was so many Hens in front of me,I took one and was happy as Hell for the experience!
   1st Fall Turkey,I took in New York since 2014 because of the 3 way change,I wrote about above.
   Not many Fall Turkey Hunters now.  Probably  some are taken by Bored Bow Deer Hunters from their Treestands.
   Obviously  many Spring Hunters and Newer Hunters that have not taken many Spring Gobblers in States that have never allowed Fall Turkey Hunting would be in opposition .
   The Roots of Turkey Hunting Lie in the Fall. I do understand that alot of Turkey Hunters do not realize that. The Book- The American Wild Turkey that some consider  the best Book on Turkey Hunting should be read . Unfortunately- even the reprints cost $100.
   Bottom Line- enjoy yourselves  out there and dont put any stock into what your fellow Turkey Hunters think you should do.

[eggshell]

good post quaver. I remember how many states handled fall seasons in the past. My first fall hunt was in the mid 70s in West Va. and the attitude by locals was shoot as many as possible out of a flock. Things have really changed and the changes NY made are because they started using science instead of tradition and feelings for management. Sure the fall harvest should be regulated, I don't think anyone disagrees. Here in Ohio the fall kill is typically around <10% of the spring gobbler harvest. Most years the total state wide fall harvest is around 1,000 birds. (https://ohiodnr.gov/static/documents/wildlife/wildlife-management/2020+Fall+Turkey+Season+Results+-+Final.pdf) Out of an estimated flock of ~250,000, that's insignificant. The kill in my county many years is less than 15. One year the total fall harvest for my county was around 8-10 and my buddys and I could account for 5 of them. Yeah, I don't think we're killing off the whole population.

Here's a just out article on what is happening now. https://www.outdoornews.com/2021/11/10/ohio-fall-turkey-harvest-falls-on-hard-times/

It's sad that in today's world that perception is becoming law and over-riding facts. The above article demonstrates this. The recent change in Ohio's turkey regulations is not science driven but socially driven. I fear because of the banter, like we are seeing in this thread, will eventually get our fall season closed, with no science to support it. Be careful what you wish for guys. Soon as they start bowing to social feelings the next change may be in your wheelhouse. How, about we should stop bow hunting becasue too many deer are lost to crippling....yeah far out, but all it will take is for someone to do a study and say it and the social media nob will pounce. Let the agencies do the science

[scattergun]

I agree Eggshell, but I think the harshness is completely necessary. What he said is fighting words. A person doesn't start running their mouth like that, and expect good things to happen. Bullies are as bad a poachers.

[paboxcall]

I'm a firm believer that killing a hen is killing the future and do not take them.

Same here.

Its not like we have an over abundance of turkeys. 

I recall seeing a thread recently about a fellow who shot a fall hen.  He was actually proud of it and was apparently seeking praise for the "achievement."

It's legal to do so so go for it, but oh my God I would be entirely embarrassed to admit that I shot a hen. It's just too easy. And it does not help the turkey population at all.

Just my opinion.

LOL. Many believed spring hunting was too easy just a few generations ago, what was so sporting about sitting down to a gobbling turkey they scoffed.

Now the fall hunt is too easy.

[crow]

I'm a firm believer that killing a hen is killing the future and do not take them.

Same here.

Its not like we have an over abundance of turkeys. 

I recall seeing a thread recently about a fellow who shot a fall hen.  He was actually proud of it and was apparently seeking praise for the "achievement."

It's legal to do so so go for it, but oh my God I would be entirely embarrassed to admit that I shot a hen. It's just too easy. And it does not help the turkey population at all.

Just my opinion.

LOL. Many believed spring hunting was too easy just a few generations ago, what was so sporting about sitting down to a gobbling turkey they scoffed.

Now the fall hunt is too easy.

nothing easy about digging a bunch of trenches

[GobbleNut]

Approaching this debate from a different angle, how many of you live in states that actually have required reporting on turkey harvest, whether fall of spring?  Is your state keeping an accurate record on turkey harvest and associated sex-of-kill through mandatory harvest reporting? 

Here in New Mexico, hunters are required to fill out a harvest report for both spring and fall hunting.  I believe the fall survey also asks for the sex of the turkey harvested (I don't know for sure because I haven't fall hunted since the hunt survey requirement was established).  If an individual buys a license and then does not file the harvest report by an established date, they cannot buy a license the following year. 

In my opinion, this is a good system that should be implemented in all states.  Of course, those filling out the survey are basically on the honor system in terms of accurately reporting their harvest, but this system is way better than having no mandatory reporting system in place at all. 

...Just curious.... 

[scattergun]

What states don't have harvest reporting? I'd really be surprised if more than 5, maybe 10 states don't require harvest reporting. Every state differs on tagging, and accepted reporting, but every one I know of treats turkeys like big game. You shoot a turkey, you attach a tag, and you report the harvest. So far I've only killed turkeys in Minnesota. Their reporting has you stating the day, morning or evening, what area it was killed in, then either adult tom, hen, or juvenile jake. Finally, they even note what you used, either archery, shotgun, or muzzleloading shotgun. They may even ask for crossbow, cant remember. It used to be kind of inconvenient, but ever since they came out with phone reporting, it's been a no brainer. The last time I tried to report an animal in person, a bear, the people at the gas station didn't even know what I was asking about. They didn't even have the tooth samples they should have.