Toxic Seeds

[owlhoot]

Neonicotinoid coated seeds. Any one heard of this as a possible turkey bird problem ?

[Jimspur]

I have never heard it mentioned anywhere in regards to affecting turkeys.

[jrinny]

I have heard of it- a coated seed with an insecticide. Some say that it is a possible problem for certain animals/birds that eat certain amounts. I would like to see more information on the subject

[Meleagris gallopavo]

Been waiting for this topic to pop up here.  I imagine you are referring to the video that Dr. Grant Woods posted.  I took issue with the video.  I feel like he's barking pretty loud up the wrong tree on that one.


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[Dtrkyman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rDDXbdVekI

[Dtrkyman]

Been waiting for this topic to pop up here.  I imagine you are referring to the video that Dr. Grant Woods posted.  I took issue with the video.  I feel like he's barking pretty loud up the wrong tree on that one.


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Care to elaborate? 

[Meleagris gallopavo]

Been waiting for this topic to pop up here.  I imagine you are referring to the video that Dr. Grant Woods posted.  I took issue with the video.  I feel like he's barking pretty loud up the wrong tree on that one.


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Care to elaborate?

Whew!  Okay.  Neonics are really not that toxic to vertebrates.  Neonicotinoid basically means new nicotine-like.  Nicotine kills insects.  I've actually killed cockroaches in the lab with nicotine.  We use nicotinoids on dogs, cats and livestock to kill insects and ticks.  A lot of crop seed is treated with these insecticides to protect seedlings from early season insects.

There was a scientific article published in 2020 in Nature about how nicotinoid use in ag crops decreased grassland bird biodiversity.  That basically means it decreased the number of grassland bird species, mostly song birds, in areas with higher neonic usage.  It has gotten a lot of attention because neonics are being heavily vilified recently, mainly for negative effects on pollinators like bees.

I looked up some studies for neonic effects on birds.  Most studies reported mostly metabolic changes that "could" harm birds like chickens.  I saw two studies done on Cortunix quail that were fed neonics.  Since chickens and quail are in the same bird family as turkeys I felt they were more relevant.  Anyway, the published articles mainly found that neonics did not affect the quail.  One study did report that while egg number, weight and egg fertility were statistically unaffected, some eggs were found from quail fed neonics that were defective.  That number was not high enough to be statistically significant but it was mentioned. 

So my take on this is that neonics aren't a problem on turkeys because they are much larger than quail and have a more varied diet than quail that were forced to eat fairly high quantities of the product.  Certainly poults would be similar in size to quail, but again they aren't eating only nicotinoid-laced food all the time and the only negative effects were seen in a few quail eggs.

I think time spent looking into other factors for turkey population decline would be better spent.


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[GobbleNut]

I know very little about neonics, but if a PhD in wildlife biology with the background that Grant Woods has expresses a concern about something like this, I am going to listen to those concerns with an open mind.  To me, the logical position to be taken is that this issue needs to be further researched until some definitive conclusions are reached.  From Woods presentation, it is quite obvious that no firm conclusions have been reached.  In the meantime, precautions such as the ones suggested by Woods should be viewed as being reasonable. 

This issue will not be decided one way or the other by turkey hunters.  If indeed there are indications that neonics are responsible for species declines,...especially bird species,...the uproar against their use will come from a lot of folks "a lot higher up the food chain" than us turkey hunters!  Our discussions about this issue are "small potatoes". 

Having said that, I also agree that there are most likely more relevant factors at play in turkey population declines.  However, nothing should be overlooked in searching for causes and, in turn, solutions.   

[Dtrkyman]

" I feel like he's barking pretty loud up the wrong tree on that one"

Meleagris gallopavo it seems you are quite knowledgeable on the subject, however when you are trying to solve a problem you "bark up all the trees" in my opinion.

There is surely not a singular resolution to the decline of the turkey, I have heard the death by a thousand cuts example and it seems the most logical.

We as turkey hunters can only focus on what we can control, if you have access to land, maximize the land you have with habitat improvements and some predator control.

I hear a lot of complaints about prescribed fire in the spring, though it seems later fire promotes better turkey habitat?  I hear this from guys like Michael Chamberlain, he claims the occasional nest lost is overcome with the promotion of better habitat in the area, I can see both side and it would seem obvious not to have fire during nesting, he claims to have nesting dats pretty well dialed in and has fire prior to peak nesting.

It is a complex issue with complex answers, at least there is a lot of discussion about it currently!

Gobblenut made a good point in regards to New Mexico, it seems the raven and crow population is really high here, back during that west nile outbreak years ago it was hard to find a crow in the midwest where I was then and assume it was the same everywhere?

[bbcoach]

This topic has been discussed in 2 other threads.  Type in Neonics in the search bar above and you can review the other 2 threads.

[FLGobstopper]

" I feel like he's barking pretty loud up the wrong tree on that one"

Meleagris gallopavo it seems you are quite knowledgeable on the subject, however when you are trying to solve a problem you "bark up all the trees" in my opinion.

There is surely not a singular resolution to the decline of the turkey, I have heard the death by a thousand cuts example and it seems the most logical.

We as turkey hunters can only focus on what we can control, if you have access to land, maximize the land you have with habitat improvements and some predator control.

I hear a lot of complaints about prescribed fire in the spring, though it seems later fire promotes better turkey habitat?  I hear this from guys like Michael Chamberlain, he claims the occasional nest lost is overcome with the promotion of better habitat in the area, I can see both side and it would seem obvious not to have fire during nesting, he claims to have nesting dats pretty well dialed in and has fire prior to peak nesting.

It is a complex issue with complex answers, at least there is a lot of discussion about it currently!

Gobblenut made a good point in regards to New Mexico, it seems the raven and crow population is really high here, back during that west nile outbreak years ago it was hard to find a crow in the midwest where I was then and assume it was the same everywhere?

I agree with the above statement. I do NOT think there are any x marks that spot definitive answers (Dr. Grant Woods also states this in another video) to what is happening across the range of the wild turkey. As many have stated, I believe we're dealing with multiple complex issues that have compounded over time and are beginning to snow ball.

One thing I want to add, that I have noticed and that I think is odd is the increasing population of bob white quail over the past 5-10 years in the SE US. These are mostly my observations in multiple locations throughout FL from the northern most stretches down to around Lake Okeechobee. I've also spent considerable time in GA covering a vast area and noticed the same thing.

So, if the ranges of the 2 birds cohabitate or at the least overlap greatly, and the 2 experience the same dangers with predators, ground nesting, herbicides, insecticides, prescribed fire, wild fire, timber over harvest, etc... then what's up? Again, these are a lot of my own observations. However a few others I've spoken with who frequent the same areas have noticed the same thing. I even just got an 8 week old german shorthaired pointer to start chasing some of the wild birds we've been seeing. I haven't quail hunted wild birds since I was a kid and I'm glad to be seeing the increase.

Are any of y'all seeing increased quail numbers in your area?

Thoughts on the reason why quail numbers are up and turkeys trending down?

[Meleagris gallopavo]

" I feel like he's barking pretty loud up the wrong tree on that one"

Meleagris gallopavo it seems you are quite knowledgeable on the subject, however when you are trying to solve a problem you "bark up all the trees" in my opinion.

There is surely not a singular resolution to the decline of the turkey, I have heard the death by a thousand cuts example and it seems the most logical.

We as turkey hunters can only focus on what we can control, if you have access to land, maximize the land you have with habitat improvements and some predator control.

I hear a lot of complaints about prescribed fire in the spring, though it seems later fire promotes better turkey habitat?  I hear this from guys like Michael Chamberlain, he claims the occasional nest lost is overcome with the promotion of better habitat in the area, I can see both side and it would seem obvious not to have fire during nesting, he claims to have nesting dats pretty well dialed in and has fire prior to peak nesting.

It is a complex issue with complex answers, at least there is a lot of discussion about it currently!

Gobblenut made a good point in regards to New Mexico, it seems the raven and crow population is really high here, back during that west nile outbreak years ago it was hard to find a crow in the midwest where I was then and assume it was the same everywhere?

I agree with the above statement. I do NOT think there are any x marks that spot definitive answers (Dr. Grant Woods also states this in another video) to what is happening across the range of the wild turkey. As many have stated, I believe we're dealing with multiple complex issues that have compounded over time and are beginning to snow ball.

One thing I want to add, that I have noticed and that I think is odd is the increasing population of bob white quail over the past 5-10 years in the SE US. These are mostly my observations in multiple locations throughout FL from the northern most stretches down to around Lake Okeechobee. I've also spent considerable time in GA covering a vast area and noticed the same thing.

So, if the ranges of the 2 birds cohabitate or at the least overlap greatly, and the 2 experience the same dangers with predators, ground nesting, herbicides, insecticides, prescribed fire, wild fire, timber over harvest, etc... then what's up? Again, these are a lot of my own observations. However a few others I've spoken with who frequent the same areas have noticed the same thing. I even just got an 8 week old german shorthaired pointer to start chasing some of the wild birds we've been seeing. I haven't quail hunted wild birds since I was a kid and I'm glad to be seeing the increase.

Are any of y'all seeing increased quail numbers in your area?

Thoughts on the reason why quail numbers are up and turkeys trending down?

I have seen more myself.  I have cousin that have purchased pointers in the past couple of years because now there's something to hunt.


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[Meleagris gallopavo]

" I feel like he's barking pretty loud up the wrong tree on that one"

Meleagris gallopavo it seems you are quite knowledgeable on the subject, however when you are trying to solve a problem you "bark up all the trees" in my opinion.

My issue with going after neonics is that it may draw attention away from other issues that may be more impactful.  There aren't but so many programs that can do turkey population research (or should do the research) and funding sources available to fund such research are competitive and can only fund so much.  I guess I'm saying you can't realistically bark up all of the trees because you can't afford to feed the dogs and some of the dogs will bark like hell on an empty tree.  Funding sources like giving money to researchers simply because it's chic to vilify pesticides and especially neonics lately.  Some researchers will see an article that shows a little data that suggests that a pesticide may cause harm and its like blood in the water.

So I'm not a fan of most commercial seed treatments because basically they drive up the seed cost and rarely result in a positive cost benefit to growers.  It would suit me if most of them would cease being used simply from that aspect. 


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[nativeks]

I think there are just less insects available for poults overall, and neonecticides are just a small part. Here is an article about the decline of grasshoppers on the tallgrass prairie.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cjonline.com/amp/7366593002

[quavers59]

  I bet those Deadly NEONICS are killing a bunch of Turkeys in alot of States.