Oklahoma going from 3 to 1

[nativeks]

What always baffles me about turkey hunters is the unwillingness to accept change. We can all see turkey numbers plumetting, but heaven forbid anybody try to do anything to attempt to protect the resource that folks supposedly care so much about. Will lowering the bag limit reverse the trend? Doubtful. It can however make wherever the floor ends up being a little bit higher. We have seen how high the ceiling can be, we don't know how low the floor can be yet.

On a side note:
The KS biologist tried to get the killing of hens stopped in the fall. One commissioner that is a devout fall hunter argued the 1700 hens killed in the fall doesn't matter. Biologist argued that in a declining population the value of the hen is much higher than in an increasing population. Hunters, other biologists, etc stood up and begged him to listen to biologists and implement the management plan they had come up with decades earlier. The commissioner filibustered it. Ultimately ended up with a reduced fall season and bag limit.

[owlhoot]

The most glaring fallacy in turkey management is the continuance of liberal fall either-sex hunting seasons in struggling turkey populations.  The very first thing to be done (relating to hunting) is to curtail all either-sex hunting.  Any time I see a state cutting spring gobbler hunting opportunity without eliminating either-sex hunting,...well, that just tells me they either don't know what they are doing,...or are bowing to "outside forces" beyond their control.  Neither is acceptable.

Maybe they don't see the fall hunting seasons with the lower harvests being a problem.

Here's the deal.  The overriding factor in wild turkey management is based on the fact that turkeys are polygamous.  That is, a single (or a few) gobblers in a population will breed many hens.  As long as you have enough breeding-age gobblers in an area to achieve full breeding of the hen population, there is no concern about gobbler numbers. Conclusion: in any turkey population where there is sustainable population recruitment (nesting success/poult survival to adulthood), there are going to be a significant percentage of gobblers that are going to be "surplus".  We can remove those gobblers from the population without impacting the reproductive potential of that population.

In any turkey population that is in "critical decline", (that is, there is not sufficient population recruitment over time to for that population to sustain itself), without supplementing that population artificially (i.e....transplants), you are essentially relying on there being a turn-around in nesting success/poult survival to adulthood. 

IF that is what you are relying on, you want to have as many adult, breeding-age hens in that population as you can so that when there is successful nesting/poult survival on a significant scale, that population will be able to rebound as quickly as possible.  In essence, there are no "surplus" hens in those critically declining turkey populations.  ALL of them should be protected. 

That should be a pretty simple concept for wildlife managers to understand,...and those that do pretty quickly make the connection that reducing the harvest of "surplus" gobblers without protecting the remaining "non-surplus" hen population in that area is counterintuitive.  Those two things go hand-in-hand. 

Don't get me wrong here.  Reducing spring gobbler harvest in an area MIGHT be necessary in populations where there are not enough remaining gobblers to achieve full "breeding saturation" of the hen population.  But doing that without also protecting your hen population is nothing but pure folly and absolutely makes no sense biologically/scientifically.

definitely agree with that. 
Here is the deal.  I sent an email to the director in Missouri. I received a response from the deputy director.
I asked about closing fall season, no hens should be shot.
Here is what he said.
The turkey population would not substantially increase in abundance and would continue to decline in some areas. Therefore , more conservative fall regulations would contribute to fewer hunting opportunities without having the desired effect on turkey abundance.
Now get this one.
They want to go all day hunting in the SPRING (last 2 weeks of season) to double hunting opportunity. He said it is not likely to contribute substantially to overall harvest.
Learn about wild turkeys and MDC management efforts June 29 through MDC Wild Webcast.

[quavers59]

   The late Dwain Bland from Enid Oklahoma  would definitely  put a hurting on anyone attempting  to Turkey Poach on his Oklahoma  Lease!

[GobbleNut]

  I sent an email to the director in Missouri. I received a response from the deputy director.
I asked about closing fall season, no hens should be shot.
Here is what he said.
The turkey population would not substantially increase in abundance and would continue to decline in some areas. Therefore , more conservative fall regulations would contribute to fewer hunting opportunities without having the desired effect on turkey abundance.
Now get this one.
They want to go all day hunting in the SPRING (last 2 weeks of season) to double hunting opportunity. He said it is not likely to contribute substantially to overall harvest.

Point One:  Unless hunting regulations in any state are completely "out of whack" with (turkey) population recruitment,...that is, the limits and seasons are so liberal that reproductive success cannot keep up, even if the turkey population is reproducing with some level of success, hunting has very little impact on turkey population stability.   

Point Two:  Turkey population declines are (almost) invariably the result of factors other than human hunting, either in the spring or fall.

Point Three:  Reducing spring gobbler hunting opportunity for "surplus" male turkeys without reducing or eliminating either sex hunting for hen turkeys is logically/biologically flawed reasoning.  Increasingly limiting spring gobbler hunting without correspondingly protecting the hen population is "backasswords" turkey management. Period.   

...There are more "Points" to be made, but I'll leave it at that for now....   

[simpzenith]

The most glaring fallacy in turkey management is the continuance of liberal fall either-sex hunting seasons in struggling turkey populations.  The very first thing to be done (relating to hunting) is to curtail all either-sex hunting.  Any time I see a state cutting spring gobbler hunting opportunity without eliminating either-sex hunting,...well, that just tells me they either don't know what they are doing,...or are bowing to "outside forces" beyond their control.  Neither is acceptable.

I don't think the problem is harvesting of hens. Lord knows there's more than enough hens on the landscape, they're just not producing the poult numbers to sustain the population. Maybe it's because the dominant gobblers are being killed before they can breed the hens per Chamberlain's studies? The small fall harvest numbers are insignificant in the total spring/fall harvest and that's why many states don't, and shouldn't, do away with it.

[deadbuck]

I applaud Oklahoma wildlife Department for their willingness to try something to turn the ship around. In my state we dont ever change anything. Looks to me like the problem is simple math, there are too many more hunters than turkeys. If that is the case they cant just sit back and let an army of hunters decimate a shrinking population of turkeys.

[GobbleNut]

The most glaring fallacy in turkey management is the continuance of liberal fall either-sex hunting seasons in struggling turkey populations.  The very first thing to be done (relating to hunting) is to curtail all either-sex hunting.  Any time I see a state cutting spring gobbler hunting opportunity without eliminating either-sex hunting,...well, that just tells me they either don't know what they are doing,...or are bowing to "outside forces" beyond their control.  Neither is acceptable.

I don't think the problem is harvesting of hens. Lord knows there's more than enough hens on the landscape, they're just not producing the poult numbers to sustain the population. Maybe it's because the dominant gobblers are being killed before they can breed the hens per Chamberlain's studies? The small fall harvest numbers are insignificant in the total spring/fall harvest and that's why many states don't, and shouldn't, do away with it.

First of all, I agree entirely that MANY states have no problem with either-sex fall harvest, and the overall problem is fundamentally based in reproductive failure.  Solving that problem is the real key, and it is rarely, if ever, associated with hunting.  But again, in critically declining turkey populations,...those that are experiencing chronic, long term failure in nesting success,...the idea that the remaining gobbler population needs to be protected but the remaining hen segment of the population doesn't,...well, that is nonsense.  Those two management strategies go hand in hand. 

The math is pretty simple really.  Hens lay eggs,...gobblers do not (duhhh!...I must have stayed at a Motel 6 last night...  ).  Let's say you have a group of turkeys with ten hens and one gobbler (or however many gobblers you want to throw in there).  At a dozen eggs per hen, your reproductive potential for that group of turkeys in 120 poults per year.  (as an exercise, run that number out over a period of several years)

Now turn that ratio around.  You have  one hen and ten gobblers.  Your reproductive potential is 12 poults per year.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand how the hen to gobbler ratio impacts the ability of a turkey population to recover from those years of reproductive failure. 

In critically declining turkey populations, killing your hens is EXPONENTIALLY decreasing the ability of that flock of turkeys to recover IF AND WHEN you finally have a successful nesting season.

And finally, turkey hunters need to understand that concept and adjust their blood lust accordingly.   

[Sir-diealot]

The most glaring fallacy in turkey management is the continuance of liberal fall either-sex hunting seasons in struggling turkey populations.  The very first thing to be done (relating to hunting) is to curtail all either-sex hunting.  Any time I see a state cutting spring gobbler hunting opportunity without eliminating either-sex hunting,...well, that just tells me they either don't know what they are doing,...or are bowing to "outside forces" beyond their control.  Neither is acceptable.

Absolutely correct, why would this not be the first step.

I have said it here and other places before and will say it again, killing a hen is killing the future and makes no sense to me whatsoever. I plan to hunt OK in the future, hope that the numbers go up but do not see that happening in any state that allows the killing of the ones that lay the eggs.

[Southerngobbler]

The most glaring fallacy in turkey management is the continuance of liberal fall either-sex hunting seasons in struggling turkey populations.  The very first thing to be done (relating to hunting) is to curtail all either-sex hunting.  Any time I see a state cutting spring gobbler hunting opportunity without eliminating either-sex hunting,...well, that just tells me they either don't know what they are doing,...or are bowing to "outside forces" beyond their control.  Neither is acceptable.

I don't think the problem is harvesting of hens. Lord knows there's more than enough hens on the landscape, they're just not producing the poult numbers to sustain the population. Maybe it's because the dominant gobblers are being killed before they can breed the hens per Chamberlain's studies? The small fall harvest numbers are insignificant in the total spring/fall harvest and that's why many states don't, and shouldn't, do away with it.

First of all, I agree entirely that MANY states have no problem with either-sex fall harvest, and the overall problem is fundamentally based in reproductive failure.  Solving that problem is the real key, and it is rarely, if ever, associated with hunting.  But again, in critically declining turkey populations,...those that are experiencing chronic, long term failure in nesting success,...the idea that the remaining gobbler population needs to be protected but the remaining hen segment of the population doesn't,...well, that is nonsense.  Those two management strategies go hand in hand. 

The math is pretty simple really.  Hens lay eggs,...gobblers do not (duhhh!...I must have stayed at a Motel 6 last night...  ).  Let's say you have a group of turkeys with ten hens and one gobbler (or however many gobblers you want to throw in there).  At a dozen eggs per hen, your reproductive potential for that group of turkeys in 120 poults per year.  (as an exercise, run that number out over a period of several years)

Now turn that ratio around.  You have  one hen and ten gobblers.  Your reproductive potential is 12 poults per year.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand how the hen to gobbler ratio impacts the ability of a turkey population to recover from those years of reproductive failure. 

In critically declining turkey populations, killing your hens is EXPONENTIALLY decreasing the ability of that flock of turkeys to recover IF AND WHEN you finally have a successful nesting season.

And finally, turkey hunters need to understand that concept and adjust their blood lust accordingly.

You left out the most likely scenario: Nine hens and no gobblers

[WV Flopper]

https://www.wildlifedepartment.com/sites/default/files/Interim%20Report%20W-190-R-2%20GHS%20F19AF00796.pdf

Interesting historic information on these pages.

[WV Flopper]

https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/print-publications/e/ecology-and-management-of-the-rio-grande-wild-turkey-in-oklahoma-e-1045.pdf

Here is another good informational read from OK. Both only take a few minutes to read. Both full of information.

[WV Flopper]

 If nesting continues to be poor they will be forced to suspend Fall hunting. Maybe not this fall, but very shortly in the near future.

  In speaking of the documents I pasted on here above: I found interest in the amount of hunters surveyed that used the public land. It doesn't surprise me, as I am sure it would be similar if surveying residents in WV about public land usage. I am sure most Non Residents don't do the survey, which is primarily what we can hunt if hunting without a guide.

Also take note of the successful % of hens nesting. To add to this, I was told by a OK turkey biologist that poults were down to .88 per hen surveyed. That's not many new turkeys on the ground at the end of the year. Especially considering the harvest numbers!

[Jimspur]

For all you guys railing against the killing of hens - I looked up the fall harvest numbers for all 77 counties in Oklahoma.
I don't know when Oklahoma's fall season was in 2020, so I put the dates for my fall harvest numbers from September 1st, 2020 to                   
December 31st, 2020 in Oklahoma's website.
Between both archery and gun seasons, there were 252 gobblers and
109 hens taken. 179 gobblers and 99 hens were taken with archery
equipment. 73 gobblers and 10 hens were taken with firearms.

I think you're fooling yourself if you think saving 109 hens over a whole
state is going to make that big of a difference. Yeah, you can argue that
every hen helps and no one can disagree with that, but in the grand
scheme of things it means little to nothing.

I don't know much about Oklahoma, so if I'm missing something let
me know.

[WV Flopper]

 Their data is hard to weed through, but Jim's response is wrong. Sorry Jim, don't mean to be so blunt, but the facts are the facts.

I have all that info posted their for the last several years, just open the links. Only takes a minute to see, and yes it would add up to some turkeys.

[WV Flopper]

 4878 fall turkeys were killed in Oklahoma in 2019. Slightly higher than their 10 year average, charts do not show 2020 data.