Do we give em too much credit??

[Happy]

We give them to much credit in some aspects and not enough credit in others.

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[Mossberg90MN]

I think they can get educated, throw me in the basket of people that give them too much credit.

They've been equipped with some level of intelligence and that is the same that most animals are... that is to survive.

If birds can learn that calls that come from a certain area of the woods equal no real hen or danger. If they can learn to not show themselves but gobble and wait for the hen to come. If they can be disturbed and leave an area, fly into a tree and hold during bad weather conditions for safety.

That sounds like intelligence to me... call it conditioning or educating. The point is that the birds began to learn that something is up, and alter there behaviors because of it.

I notice there's 2 schools, 1) that says they're the dumbest things on the planet. And 2) the birds can get educated.

It is all based on survival, and if they were actually truly stupid they wouldn't survive. Maybe paranoia is the drive that keeps them alive, but same with a mature buck. If he even gets human scent in an area that it's not suppose to be, he books it out of there. Pressured bucks will go nocturnal, out of paranoia that something is gonna get them. They will go through some nasty terrain if it means they can bed safely.

I'm in the club that says these animals do have some level of survival intelligence, and can learn what danger is. Just like they know coyotes/dogs equal danger. Or how a buck can hear metal clang together from a tree stand and know that's an unnaturally sound in the woods and stay hunkered down until night and then maybe not return back to that bed for a long while.


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[g8rvet]

I have had this discussion and a lot of it comes down to definition of terms. 

Does ability to learn mean intelligence to you?  If it does, they are intelligent.
Does ability to reason mean intelligence to you?  If it does, they are not intelligent. 

They are good at what they need to be to survive in the woods, both during the season and the rest of the year.  Humans are just one of the critters that want to eat them.  They have keen senses and one foot on the panic button-just like many prey species. 

Birds that have been taught what is bad by positive punishment (I do X behavior and something bad happens), not negative reinforcement (if I stop doing this behavior, the bad thing is taken away) can easily learn to avoid conditions, behaviors, sounds, sights, etc.  If this were not true, why is it not universally agreed that 2 year olds are easier to kill than big mature birds.  Why is it not pretty much universally accepted that pressured birds are harder to kill than naive birds?  But with all that said, even the wariest and the most learned turkeys still have some weaknesses that hunters exploit to kill them.

[Moneyball11]

I have had this discussion and a lot of it comes down to definition of terms. 

Does ability to learn mean intelligence to you?  If it does, they are intelligent.
Does ability to reason mean intelligence to you?  If it does, they are not intelligent. 

They are good at what they need to be to survive in the woods, both during the season and the rest of the year.  Humans are just one of the critters that want to eat them.  They have keen senses and one foot on the panic button-just like many prey species. 

Birds that have been taught what is bad by positive punishment (I do X behavior and something bad happens), not negative reinforcement (if I stop doing this behavior, the bad thing is taken away) can easily learn to avoid conditions, behaviors, sounds, sights, etc.  If this were not true, why is it not universally agreed that 2 year olds are easier to kill than big mature birds.  Why is it not pretty much universally accepted that pressured birds are harder to kill than naive birds?  But with all that said, even the wariest and the most learned turkeys still have some weaknesses that hunters exploit to kill them.

Well said!

[TauntoHawk]

They certainly don't strategize against us but you have to respect their ability to survive and be unpredictable

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[Spitten and drummen]

They may have a walnut sized brain and we might think they are dumb but I know some people who are dumber.

[Ihuntoldschool]

No, the opposite is true, we don't give them enough credit.

[GobbleNut]

You discount them at your own peril.  They can learn.

In this debate, put me squarely in this camp.    Over the decades, I have just witnessed too many instances of wild turkeys doing things that could only be explained by some rudimentary level of "thinking" on their part. 

Once a turkey hunter recognizes this fact,...and adjusts how he approaches hunting any particular gobbler that, by his actions, demonstrates that he has "learned" to respond to certain things in his environment by behaving in a manner of avoidance,...that hunter will, over time, be more successful.

As Silvestris stated, anyone who does not recognize a wild turkey's ability to "learn",...and does not adjust his/her hunting tactics to compensate for that,..."does so at their own peril" in terms of their overall success rates. 

Having said  that, the statement "any gobbler can be killed" is absolutely true.  However, anyone that believes that "any" gobbler can be killed using what are generally considered to be "standard" practices, will waste a lot of time trying to kill certain gobblers that way,...and in the end, walk out of the woods empty-handed. 

[RutnNStrutn]

They are a great  creature and have provided me with hours of fun. I think we should get a petition going to hybrenize them so that they can smell. Imagine the challenge!

All you'd have to do is wear a HECS suit over Scentlok and put out a decent amount of turkey in heat cover scent.

Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.

[High plains drifter]

I didn't have any success hunting them, until I treated them as an intelligent bird.

[BB30]

Turkeys act and they react. They act like turkeys 24/7 and will react to being introduced to new things in the environment etc. There is no reasoning process. They can't distinguish that that person calling is in fact a hunter etc. I don't believe they even associate more calling as a threat. I simply think the whole over calling thing is overblown. It is knowing when to pour it on and when less is more that matters.

I've had gobblers shut down completely to a live hen cutting and yelping and shortly after that I have called them up. A turkey is just plainly going to do what they do and continue their normal routine in spite of pressure. They may get a little more wary or wise as they get older simply from surviving being hunted daily. I also believe that any turkey regardless of the amount of pressure/age applied will come willingly to a call on the right day.

They are still quite remarkable birds without us giving them more credit than necessary. That is obviously the reason as to why we are all ate up with turkey hunting. 

[silvestris]

I tend to approach them with a Pascal's Gambit attitude.  If you take the unintelligent position and you are right, then I have to scratch my head and wonder why you hunt them.  If you are wrong, I know of no way to convince you of what you are missing by not getting in their heads.  One method is hunting, whereas the other mere killing.  A death at the conclusion of a hunt, performed correctly, is a stunning experience and quite honorable.  I lean sharply to intelligent.

[dzsmith]

They tend to do what keeps them alive. the longer they live , they longer they learn how to live. are they technically an intelligent animal? Of course not, but it doesn't matter...they can evade and survive. We give them credit for things that are our own fault not theirs....at the end of the day...the animal deserves credit for what it is "a survivor"