SC DNR Wild Turkey Public Meetings

[PalmettoRon]

I attended a meeting put on by the SC DNR which was very informative. A lot of the decline in turkey numbers was explained and some myths exposed.

2010 was the last good hatch. Basically a hen has has to produce 2.0 poults for turkey numbers to stay even. 2021 was a break even year so this Spring was a little better. There has been an overall decline for years in recruitment of birds.

2002 was our peak harvest at about 25K. 35K hunters in 1992 killed roughly the same number of turkeys as 50K hunters in 2022.

A 3 year average shows 8% of the kill were jakes, 9% of the kill was on public land, 22% was after Noon, and 9% of the kill was by NR hunters--this despite our early opening.

23% used a strutter decoy or fan and had the same overall success rate as those who didn't.

20% of hunters killed 1 bird, 1.7% 2 birds and 2% killed 3 birds.

58% of the harvest occurred before the first eggs were laid, with the average first egg laid on April 9th.

The average date for egg incubation across the Southeast is April 24th.

Habitat change and loss along with predation(non human) are the biggest factors in the decline.

Pigs are thought to account for around 1% of nest loss. Studies of coyote scat showed only 9% contained turkey DNA.

It would appear the biggest change to try to reverse the decline would be for SC to move our opener back to at least April 10th to allow for optimal breeding  Perhaps eliminating PM hunting or at least limiting the days of PM hunting would be beneficial as again 22% of our harvest was in the PM.

Trying to encourage trapping certainly could be beneficial and the beneficial role of fire is not being utilized as only around 3% of our land is being burned.

Unfortunately in SC, the legislature has an outsized role in setting DNR laws and previously did not listen to the DNR recommendation to move the seasons into April. In fact a few years ago the statewide opener was moved to March 20th for a few years which made no sense as often at least in the Upstate if one gobbler came in multiples did and with a 2 bird a day limit and at times 2 hunters together---well you can do the math on that one.

It will be interesting to see where season changes in TN and GA will lead, but all ideas need to be considered to preserve this option for future hunters and any changes need to be based on science and not political favors. I won't hold my breath on that.

[deerhunt1988]

I attended a meeting put on by the SC DNR which was very informative. A lot of the decline in turkey numbers was explained and some myths exposed.

2010 was the last good hatch. Basically a hen has has to produce 2.0 poults for turkey numbers to stay even. 2021 was a break even year so this Spring was a little better. There has been an overall decline for years in recruitment of birds.

2002 was our peak harvest at about 25K. 35K hunters in 1992 killed roughly the same number of turkeys as 50K hunters in 2022.

A 3 year average shows 8% of the kill were jakes, 9% of the kill was on public land, 22% was after Noon, and 9% of the kill was by NR hunters--this despite our early opening.

23% used a strutter decoy or fan and had the same overall success rate as those who didn't.

20% of hunters killed 1 bird, 1.7% 2 birds and 2% killed 3 birds.

58% of the harvest occurred before the first eggs were laid, with the average first egg laid on April 9th.

The average date for egg incubation across the Southeast is April 24th.

Habitat change and loss along with predation(non human) are the biggest factors in the decline.

Pigs are thought to account for around 1% of nest loss. Studies of coyote scat showed only 9% contained turkey DNA.

It would appear the biggest change to try to reverse the decline would be for SC to move our opener back to at least April 10th to allow for optimal breeding  Perhaps eliminating PM hunting or at least limiting the days of PM hunting would be beneficial as again 22% of our harvest was in the PM.

Trying to encourage trapping certainly could be beneficial and the beneficial role of fire is not being utilized as only around 3% of our land is being burned.

Unfortunately in SC, the legislature has an outsized role in setting DNR laws and previously did not listen to the DNR recommendation to move the seasons into April. In fact a few years ago the statewide opener was moved to March 20th for a few years which made no sense as often at least in the Upstate if one gobbler came in multiples did and with a 2 bird a day limit and at times 2 hunters together---well you can do the math on that one.

It will be interesting to see where season changes in TN and GA will lead, but all ideas need to be considered to preserve this option for future hunters and any changes need to be based on science and not political favors. I won't hold my breath on that.

Firstly, glad to see a state holding public meetings for turkey hunters! And helping educated them on the issues at hand. Thanks for sharing.

Now for a few thoughts to add to the discussion:

• The 2.0pph number to remain stable is possibly a bit outdated (per other biologists). If it took 2.0pph to remain stable, we would have saw a lot more drastic declines in some states than we have. Not trying to get hung up on hard numbers, but want folks to realize 2.0 isn't a magic number where turkey numbers are suddenly going to decline if pph drops below 2.0. In most instances throughout the southeast, 2.0 is actually growth now. Some biologists think stable may be more along the lines of 1.6-1.7. Different in other regions of the US though where its not uncommon to have 3 or even near 4 pph.
• Not surprised by the growth in hunter numbers. The majority of this forum agrees on it.
• As far as strutter deke success rates, you could argue that those hunters were only successful BECAUSE of the strutter deke. If you took away that crutch, perhaps their success would be cut in half or more.
• Such a small percentage of hunters killing multiple birds is why reducing bag limits isn't going to help a thing. There has been A LOT of opportunity lost in recent year through reduction of bag limits when its only saving an extremely small percentage of birds (assuming those birds aren't killed by other hunters and make it to the next season)
• I consider 9% of coyote scat having turkey DNA, rather significant. That same study found an even higher percent of fox scat containing DNA (I believe it was ~12%)
• I think South Carolina would be wise to wait before they reduce more turkey season opportunity. We now have a few good case studies out there to see if delayed seasons are going to help (Georgia, Alabama public land, Tennessee). There currently isn't any evidence that delays are going to help a thing. Once you take away opportunity, you likely aren't going to get it back!
• Although wild hog nest impacts may be minimal, their impact on habitat and food resources hasn't been quantified yet in regards to turkey.
• Politics are a witch! And unfortunately their is no avoiding them. One of my biggest disappointments in working in the field of natural resources is seeing just how large of a role politics really play.

[/list]

[PalmettoRon]

Totally agree re: strutter decoy. Those that depend on them would probably be much less successful.

We all remember trying to figure out how to kill a gobbler that would go out in the middle of a big field and strut. It took some observation and trial and error to predict entry and exit points and some luck to get those gobblers. Now, a pop up blind and a strutter and lay down hen in the middle of that field make that kill not really difficult in many cases.

The GA and TN date changes haven't been in effect long enough to know what the ultimate effects will be if any.

Reducing the bag limit from 3 to 2 in SC seemingly would be just a token gesture.

The SC DNR is in the midst of a study on a designated area of the Savannah River Project where no hunting is allowed and won't complete this study for two more years. Then the data will need to be crunched. Hopefully this will provide useful data for any recommendations to assist the wild turkey.

One thing for sure, habitat will continue to decline as SC is in the top 5 states in percentage of population growth. That will be a huge factor going forward. Predator control does need to catch on in private land as that is where 91% of hunting opportunity resides.

Unfortunately, politicians who never lack knowledge about anything will continue to probably "foul the nest" when it comes to making reasonable decisions. Money and their own personal preferences among the outdoorsmen politicians will probably continue to rule the day.

It's a story for another day and website, but the whole concept of legislatures being dominated by lawyers who then make laws is a fundamental conflict of interest.

[Paulmyr]

All good info. I would disagree with the coyote/fox scat as being significant. More info is needed. It's very possible many of them canines ate from the guts piles left behind by successful hunters.

[3bailey3]

I never leave a turkey carcass in the woods I hunt! I don't want anything to get that taste in their mouth!

[joey46]

Please keep bumping this up as it goes along.  Some Florida guys are following it closely.  Thanks.  Politics plays a very big part down here.

[WV Flopper]

 I have an intelligent friend whom says regularly that statistics can be swayed, and, they can.

A population that is at 100K and needs a 2.0PPH to sustain, if the population drops to a 50K it would be a growing population at 2.0PPH and most likely only need a 1.0PPH to sustain if habitat were left unchanged.

So, when are we deciding we are growing or sustainable? From what year are we basis this..... Last year, five years ago, 1995?

I feel that a lot of these numbers are inflated. Specifically harvest numbers compared to hunter numbers. Many states are reporting higher harvest numbers, sure, but their hunter numbers have grown. The question is, what is the percentage of harvest by hunter number. If it has stayed comparable then the population is sustaining the pressure. If it has dropped, most likely the population or habit has changed and effected the harvest.

[PalmettoRon]

In SC, the harvest in SC in 1992 is essentially the same as now with 15K more hunters, so overall hunter success is down.

From my anecdotal experience in the places I hunt in SC, the numbers are definitely down.

The habitat is rarely static anywhere. if the piece of land you hunt is essentially stable, you can bet there are changes on adjacent properties.

The places where I've hunted Rios and Merriams are all down in numbers. I've paid a trespass fee for over 30 years on some of those places and while the hunter numbers are absolutely stable on at least one of those places, the numbers of birds are absolutely way down, probably related to a sustained drought.

Statistics can definitely be skewed to support a contention, but I don't see any reason for DNR s to not be concerned. Again, most of us even on private land or land we may own have seen the population drop.

[ChiefBubba]

Please keep bumping this up as it goes along.  Some Florida guys are following it closely.  Thanks.  Politics plays a very big part down here.

This is very true. We need to get the water districts out of hunting also they need to just worry about water which they don't do very well anyway. Give it back to Fish and Wildlife. Bubba

[RunNGunSC]

SC DNR followed up these meetings with a survey.  It will be interesting to see their recommendations to the legislature.  I made use of the comments section to give some alternative thoughts.  I assume season dates will be the primary target.