Did I explain this right?

[paboxcall]

The following in bold below was copied without edits or changes from Apex Ammunition's facebook page. Straight from the actual TSS experts, disagreements with their logic can be taken up with them directly on their webpage :

https://www.facebook.com/apexammuntion/posts/a-little-insight-to-tss-its-long-but-worth-the-read-enjoywhile-simple-kinetic-en/1489762124395161/

A little insight to TSS. It's long but worth the read. Enjoy

While simple kinetic energy equation tells us yes mass and velocity are in the equation. Most people don't comprehend Velocity is also exponentially proportional to mass. So exiting the barrel with similar muzzle velocities, any heavier pellet will carry more " kinetic energy."

So if that's the case, let's use #2 steel. Its more than # 4 lead, right? At 3.509 grains it then must be better? This is why most big game bowhunting guides require a certain arrow weight, because a heavier, slightly slower arrow is more lethal than a light fast one. The answer is momentum. It is more important than the flashy, marketed " kinetic energy." However, what the " energy" is actually referred to is knock down power. A common misnomer used in tss.

Shotgunners have two common myths, they think velocity is constant and gravity is negligible. A #9 tss pellet has the same penetration capability as a number 4 lead in ballistics gel at 40 yards. How? We'll lead is a malleable material that deforms on impact. Therefore it creates an uneven surface. It also has more surface area than a #9. BOTH which contribute to the pellet losing velocity.

Since velocity is relative to kinetic energy at an exponential rate, it loses velocity at an exponential rate. Air is actually modeled as a fluid and thus we utilize this to calculate resistance loses. Therefore, because lead has lost so much velocity, it's mass is not relative to the equation as much where as an initial pellet such as 1.2 grains is but has maintained a velocity of 4-500 fps or more at that range. Coupled with its density (which enables it to maintain speed due to momentum which is defined as a subjects ability to impart resistance on an object in motion) and ability to not deform allows it to penetrate to the equivalent of #4 lead at 40 yards (approx 2.5").

As we shoot birds we are not looking to hit muscle and have a lead core "open up" to cause hemorrhage, we are looking for skeletal and nervous system damage. We are looking looking for a material that as the ability to accomplish such in a greater manner and at greater distance if one so chooses.

If none of this which I said is true, then why would we just not use steel in larger pellet sizes then since say it's, possibly cheaper or more environmental friendly? Why do we not shoot #9 lead then? Why does heavyweight 15 not come in number 9? Why does hevi shot not offer their products in 8 and 9? Are the thousands of people who use TSS , even if they don't buy from us, apart of a gimmick? Does the military using tungsten tipped rounds for armor piercing a false way to spend more on ammunition?

No, they are not. Simply put. Material density enables us to utilize a smaller pellet which retains velocity due to momentum (mass times velocity, not to be confused with kinetic energy of mass times velocity squared) and is less susceptible to wind resistance which allows it to have the "same knock down power" or " energy" as people mislabel it as #4 lead in ballistics gel at 40 yards and beyond. Since most ballistics gel is the same relative compatible composition in terms of damage as tissue of animals, it is widely used for testing such as by the FBI for testing.

So, common misnomer as people relate " energy" equivalencies from mere weight and muzzle velocities. A common software used to calculate energy at distances based on density, shot size and velocity, can be purchased from BPI called KPY which we use. Also, I will cite sources below from Tom Roster and Randy Wakeman, two of the most well known and respected shotshell experts today and argue the very same claims I mentioned above.

I assure you this is not a gimmick. Tungsten is considered a "precious metal" on the world market and is marketed as such. If it were cheaper, then every shotshell manufacturer would dabble into it and we would offer our shells the lowest we possibly could. There is a reason Federal wants in the market. Validity always reveals itself. Always.

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/mobile/KPY-Shotshell-Ballistics-v20-select-CD-or-USB/productinfo/716KPYB/

http://www.randywakeman.com/ShotgunLethalityTablesCommentDiscussionandCriticism%20.htm?fbclid=IwAR3Cd2BySZ4CyJsoIAuHihs6AUsmbNf68OHvCKLaG4vqbmHEuqDrMgmGqkU

https://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/tom-roster/does-speed-kill.html?fbclid=IwAR1enwVHUeysRU_7halkNvyp2ULZhEbwLefCM-0h7ariOdIz4GuBzuUGkq0

[guesswho]

i don't think I'm smart enough to turkey hunt any longer.   1965 I pull 20 gauge trigger with lead #6's and turkey fall down.   Fast forward to 2020, I pull 410 trigger with #9 1/2 TSS and turkey still fall down.   I also remember pulling 20 gauge trigger in the 60's with lead #6's and hog run off.    In 2020 I pull 410 trigger with #9 1/2 TSS and hog walk in circle 2 or 3 times and fall down.   I forget the mathematical reasoning for that.   Ok, I never knew the mathematical reason, but I think it may have been covered in this thread.   My head hurts

[LaLongbeard]

When I saw the top of the post were the information that followed came from Apex I stoped right there. Pretty easy to guess what Apex thinks of the only type of shot  material they sell?
    Even after all these pages of comments no one has been able to prove the claims of #9 TSS vs  plain old lead #5? 

[paboxcall]

When I saw the top of the post were the information that followed came from Apex I stoped right there. Pretty easy to guess what Apex thinks of the only type of shot  material they sell?
    Even after all these pages of comments no one has been able to prove the claims of #9 TSS vs  plain old lead #5?

[g8rvet]

LOL  Guesswho.  I ALWAYS like your posts.  You are very good at boiling it down to the essentials - which is actually a rare gift. 

All these ballistics are for fun.  Of course they can be used to figure WHY something happens and why some of these small shots work well in the smaller gauges. 

In my muzzleloaders, I have combined #7 Heavyweight (which I got real cheap on sale) and #5 copper coated lead for some crazy good patterns at 35 yards for the TK and 30 for the System1.  #5 was okay at 25ish, but the pattern fell off quickly-even just a few yards.  The #7s give me just a bit more range.  Both birds killed this year though were killed at about 25 and the #5 lead would have likely been okay.  I did not use a chrono or anything, just trial and errored a few load and shot combos until I was satisfied. Ballistics let me be confident in the penetration of the #7 HW and the #5 lead, that they would be lethal (and the combo worked fine).  Interestingly, the #6 lead alone was not very impressive in either M/L. 

[owlhoot]

Tss 9's weigh about like 7 1/2 lead . Kind of wondering if we might have been missing out all these years?
Also could someone explain why the Tss 9's I've shot out of a few of my guns always hit lower than other loads at 40 yards?
The Tss kill for me just fine ,my guns only do around 225 in the 10" at 40 yards. 20 guage Federal loads.

[Gentry]

I thought I somewhat understood the TSS game, but now y'all have me thoroughly confused. LOL

Now I'm thinking the 20 gauge Federal TSS #9 @ 18g/cc do not have any benefit over Federal Heavyweights #7 @ 15g/cc??

Maybe TSS #7 is the way to go?


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[blake_08]

I thought I somewhat understood the TSS game, but now y'all have me thoroughly confused. LOL

Now I'm thinking the 20 gauge Federal TSS #9 @ 18g/cc do not have any benefit over Federal Heavyweights #7 @ 15g/cc??

Maybe TSS #7 is the way to go?


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Pattern density with 9s is the only benefit in my opinion. I shoot the Browning TSS 7x9 shell through my 20 gauge. Averages right around 200 in the 10 @ 40 yards so it suits me fine.

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[Swampchickin234]

I'm on the 9-1/2 and 10 bandwagon! Hehehehe


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[owlhoot]

I'm on the 9-1/2 and 10 bandwagon! Hehehehe


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Why ? .410 ?

[Swampchickin234]

I'm on the 9-1/2 and 10 bandwagon! Hehehehe


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Why ? .410 ?

Cause I like pattern density and small gauges. .  And regardless of what anyone says or tells you, they knock the snot out of turkeys.   I'm not a physics instructor and I do not have a PhD.   I do not instruct classes nor pretend to be an expert.  I have however seen them in action.  Multiple times. And I have plenty of confidence. And I will shoot them as long as it's legal and I can get them because it just tickles my fancy. And it's America!


Hope everyone shoots what shells they want and fills a whole bunch of tags in 21'!   


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[owlhoot]

I thought I somewhat understood the TSS game, but now y'all have me thoroughly confused. LOL

Now I'm thinking the 20 gauge Federal TSS #9 @ 18g/cc do not have any benefit over Federal Heavyweights #7 @ 15g/cc??

Maybe TSS #7 is the way to go?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Only advantage that I have seen in the Tss 9's is that it was very easy to get 225 in the 10" at 40. The smaller size shot going through a tight choke and the pellet count have to help. The Hw7 for me ,150 took some work. I would expect the same from Tss 7's. Hw7 loads hit hard and slam heads.
I haven't seen the same effect from Tss 9's but they are all dead birds.

[owlhoot]

I'm on the 9-1/2 and 10 bandwagon! Hehehehe


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Why ? .410 ?

Cause I like pattern density and small gauges. .  And regardless of what anyone says or tells you, they knock the snot out of turkeys.   I'm not a physics instructor and I do not have a PhD.   I do not instruct classes nor pretend to be an expert.  I have however seen them in action.  Multiple times. And I have plenty of confidence. And I will shoot them as long as it's legal and I can get them because it just tickles my fancy. And it's America!


Hope everyone shoots what shells they want and fills a whole bunch of tags in 21'!   


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Well that's good. Glad they work . So you have lots of experience with the .410 ? Would like to up the game with mine so would apex 9 1/2 be the way to go?