First off, let me say that I'm old school in the regard that I only shoot lead. I tried HTL a few years ago but switched back to lead because of the prices. I've used Winchester ammo for years with very good success until I tried the Longbeards prior to last season. If anyone happens to question the downrange energy of these shells, let me tell you about my experience with them. I called in the only bird I harvested to (what I later found out was 45 yards). When I took the shot, the bird folded with absolutely no flop. At the time that I cleaned the bird, I found that when I shot. the bird was in half strut, my pattern hit the bird from the top of his head to the meat of his wing butt. I found that the shot had penetrated his wing. near side breast. the breast bone, off side breast, and what shot didn't go thru the off side wing, lodged in it. Also, it knocked the bird backwards about 10 feet. In 30 years of hunting, I've never had that kind of impact on any bird I've been blessed to harvest. This is only my own opinion and in no way meant to down play the HTL shots on the market.