I bought a box of 2 3/4 #4 at walmart several years ago when I was running low on turkey shells and it was ll they had. Surprizingly they shot very well from the 835 with the stardot .676. After season was over I bought some 3.5" 2oz #4s in Huntsville Al thinking more is better. Ironicaly the pattern was better and more centered from the 2 3/4" load. I killed a couple of birds with the 3.5" #4s but eventualy wnet back to #5 which is my favorite. reflexl