What’s happening to our precious Turkey’s

[arkrem870]

Poor nest success is the common denominator in most of the latest studies..... predators are a major problem. However they are much harder control than the two legged variety. 

[WV Flopper]

 I have thought of this for a bit and thought I would share. Not to argue, but for all to think as a group. I do believe turkey population dynamics are effected differently in different regions of the country , state, even county. =Not one answer.

I live in Hardy county West Virginia. It has been heralded as the Poultry Capitol of West Virginia "By Hardy County", regardless, as long as I have lived in this county poultry has been King and still is. It has shifted from the normal processing to "Organic, LOL" but Poultry is still king. In February turkeys start making their selves visible in the river bottoms. Some large flocks..... many Toms strutting around for several weeks. When the farmers scatter chicken manure they leave the fields if they didn't exist. They don't like it! This usually takes place in early April.

The next spring the flocks are back in the river bottoms, just like last year. The flocks have gotten smaller from the 90's, no doubt about that. You don't see 20 Toms strutting in those fields anymore, its more like 10. I will note I did see 19 Jakes this spring in a field after manure was spread, Jakes=Dumb. Maybe there is something in the manure, read on.

This has been going on sense I moved here in 1993. That's 29 years ago. This cycle has been observed by me every year. I do understand that commercial farms can and do transmit disease, not arguing that. But that is not the blame, it is as it has been, nothing different, here. "Unless a new undocumented disease is present."

I am VERY fortunate to be able to hunt good ground that covers 75 miles East to West per OnX, straight line of course. The East ground in suburbs of Winchester Virginia. The west ground is Tucker county West Virginia. Going from 600 feet elevation to 3300 elevation East to West. The Suburbs have no ag or trapping to tell. Matter of fact, seen more foxes in Winchester Virginia than anywhere in my life. My home area is heavy private ag ground. But there is some hobby trapping that takes place. Nothing IMO to make a difference in the predator populations.

The Western ground is funny and contrary to a lot noted here in this post. I have trapped there, yearly up to three years ago, I trapped there for a solid 10 years and kept a log. Amazingly, I averaged 1 coon a year, .1 possum a year, 0 skunks a year. So if you missed the . point, 1 possum in 10 years, it was an amazing catch by a partner "Hampshire county Possum King". I couldn't believe it. And 0 skunks in 10 years! They dont have any snakes up there either to speak of. They do have an abundance of crows and ravens! We caught coyotes, fox, and a couple bobcats, mainly coyotes by far. There is 0 ag in this area! Matter of fact I heard a bull this spring in Maryland, he had to have been at a minimum of 3 miles away.

These three areas have different turkey population dynamics. They are not the same and can not be treated the same, One State regulation to cover this amount of ground is not fair to the individuals that live and hunt it, or the wildlife that call it home. Even though it is two different states, its not that much ground overall.

Three seasons ago I was disappointed when our state changed our start and stop date, they moved them both up one week. Which, where I hunt "West" means you lost one of the best weeks. You lost a week when the majority of the hens were breed and mature Toms were looking for a girl. They only did this due to PUBLIC opinion, not Biology. Now, with the PUBLIC crying "Me Too" they added back the last week. SO, what was a four week season is now a five week season, soon to change I would expect. But that wasn't done through Biology, it was done through Politics and public opinion.

So, if you have taken the time to read this you are thinking it makes 0 sense. I agree! It's not 1 answer, its not one problem, not all regions are the same and shouldn't be treated the same! Problem is we don't have enough Biologist to answer all of these region specific problems. None of the issues I bring up mention weather, over harvest, mortality whether natural or man. They too play into the issue, I am not limiting them out and don't mean too.

If you are hell bent on the nesting predators being the problem go to Minnesota Trapline Products and purchase some dogproof traps. You can set up a dozen of these for under 300$ and kill some coons. All you will need is a anchoring system, I prefer chaining them off to a tree and some marshmallows with scent. You can use Anise or Vanilla as scent and probably kill all the coons you care to kill. Jack Mackerel works great too!

[WV Flopper]

 I will add...trapping coons in a dog proof is not like the normal stigma of predator trapping. It to me is the lazy man's trapping, as long as you don't smear you dog proof in grease, diesel, or gas your good to go. Bait it and set it and your in business, that easy.

Maybe even you'll enjoy it and move up to fox and coyotes, it is fun and educational.

[nativeks]

I agree its death by 1000 cuts. Predators (both 2 and 4 leg), habitat, weather, etc. Another interesting aspect has been some research on grasshoppers disappearing from the tallgrass prairie. They have noticed a drastic decline even though the grass is growing larger. Of course turkeys use grasshoppers as a source of protein. Could it be possible that even if they hatch there are not enough insects to go around? Lots of new research going on can hopefully point us in some direction to stop the freefall.

I've had a biologist to my place several times. I've undertaken habitat projects to increase the success of ground nesting birds. I've taken to trapping and calling predators (if you have never called racoons it is a hoot), prescribed fire has been reintroduced, I've planted bird specific food plots, etc. I've seen the quail respond but yet to see the turkeys do the same.

I've also seen people say that it seems turkeys gobble less now for the most part. I think as a whole we have removed alot of the hard gobbling genetics. If a bird makes a noise especially on public they die. So the quiet birds get a better chance to live and pass on their genetics.

[Paulmyr]

This was meant as response to certain post but a few of you have made some pretty good post since I've been writing it. I'll just leave it lay on its own.

I wouldn't expect much population increase in areas that have had high turkey densities over the past 20 years or so. The land can carry only so many. I would assume predator concentrations have increased across the country to due to lack of trapping/hunting over the last 20 years with the crash of the fur market. One thing that has also happened in these areas during this time period or longer is the number of people hunting turkeys, most visibly in destination states that attract traveling hunters. From what I'm hearing its mostly destination states that sell unlimited tags that have seen these drastic drops in turkey numbers. Blaming these drastic drops strictly on predators falls short in my belief. Raccoons seem to take most of the blame but from what I understand good nesting and brood rearing habitat just don't coincide with typical raccoon feeding areas. Possums you say. Here in my home state possums we're nonexistent. In the  1990's I started to see road kill possums. When I trapped for a few years  in the mid 2000's possums beat skunks on the tally board. Can't remember now the last time I seen a possum road kill. Through out all this turkey numbers expanded throughout the state.

Another point I'd like to make is before colonization of the United States the estimated turkey population was around 10 million turkeys compared to the 6 million or so we have today. Are we to beleive turkey predators didn't exist back then? What caused the drop after colonization through the early 1900's has been over hunting and the degradation of habitat through mass logging. It nearly led to the extinction of the wild turkey. The habitat has rebounded for the most part in areas that don't have urban sprawl.

On the logging note. I hunt 2 areas of the country  in Northern parts of the country that have significant logging activity. One area of a state has a newly established turkey population that has expanded from the more traditional areas within the state. This expansion coincided with the rise in predators due to lack of trapping. The logging in this area is usually large clear cuts in mature forest. It has a moderate population of turkeys that is spread out. Since about the late 2000's I've been able to hunt in this area. From what I've experienced in the last 15 years or so is turkey populations fluctuate according to the severity of the winters in this area. Mainly long periods of frigid temperatures. Hunting pressure is pretty light. It's been increasing but still fairly light.

The other area I hunt the logging is extensive but the cuts are on a smaller scale and  seem to be managed for game. What I mean by this is instead of clear cutting large tracts of forest in one fell swoop the logging takes place over a period of years where smaller tracts are cut. There's a series of different growth stages through out the area instead of mature forest with one stage of new growth. The section of this state I hunt has a good population of turkeys. The hunting pressure is managed by limiting the number of tags sold according to turkey population densities  within areas of the state. From what I can tell predator numbers are high.
I've hunted states in the southern part of the country as well. One state was before and after the boom in turkey populations. I hunted one area of this state over a period of about a dozen years with lengthy stays each year. The hunting was good before and way better when I returned 2 years ago. Did not hunt it during the peak where limits were increased by one bird and from what I could tell the peak is still happening in this part of the state. The hunting pressure was about the same. One thing I did notice is gates that used to be closed were now open making access easier and controlled burns seemed to be the norm where they were non existent before. Logging on this stretch of forest seems to be about the same. When I asked the guy I knew who lived and hunted there most of his adult life if he thought the population was in decline his answer was "take look, I got 5 gobblers hanging around my yard" than he smirked. Since that hunt the season dates have been moved, regulations changed and the limit was dropped by one bird due to declines in other parts of the state.

The other state I hunted in the south was also before and after the decline. It used to be a destination state. Only hunted this state 2 trips for a total of about 10 days so I can't really say to much about it. I was on turkeys most of the time. I didn't seem to any better or any worse than most places I hunted up until that point except the last state I'm going to talk about.

This state was a destination state in the middle of the country. My 1st mourning there I sat in field a listened the Ridgeline before me come alive with gobblers. First one, than 2, the gobblers that followed simply amazed me. This small WMA erupted in what I would guess to be more than 20 gobblers. It was impossible to count them all there was so much gobbling.

This 1000 acre piece of public land simply got hammered by hunters. Tents were at every parking area with 4 or 5 guys each. Other places in this part of the state seemed to get about as much attention. The fall was rapid from this peak. Consecutive years of record wet springs and a spring freeze during the nesting period decimated the population. Before this happened I remember the decline of gobblers on this little slice of public hunting heaven. The following years the gobblers slowly declined. There were plenty of hens. The place was awash in them. Gobblers however became fewer and fewer every year. By the time of the of the crash from bad weather I stopped going. I've returned to this place once a couple years ago and it hasn't seemed to recover. The only gobbler I heard off in the distance the one mourning I hunted sounded like it was shot. Moved my attention to a different area and found good gobbler numbers. Not the 1st mourning extravaganza I heard years before but it had a good population. The area has a schedule of burns that take place early in spring. They even post notices at entry points before the burns happen. I did not notice any burning activity when I hunted before the crash.


My observations are anecdotal for sure. The point in all of this rambling is to pick one culprit in the fall of turkey populations in areas across the country would be a disservice. Blanket statements and regulations need more thought. The question needs to be asked. Why are populations falling in some areas across the country and not others? If the answer is predators than why are they more lethal in different areas. Has the habitat in these areas shifted to a more predator friendly environment? I've heard this theory and feel it has merit. I've also heard other theories that seem very likely as well. One thing I know for sure is the common denominator during the crash in populations after colonization through the early 1900's and the recent down turns in certain areas was the increasing presence of human activity whether it be hunting or non hunting related.

[mikejd]

Nest predation is the elephant in the room. It's also the hardest to control. That's why it's all but ignored by most states dnr and the experts.  The drop in nest success correlates directly with falling fur prices.

It also correlates in the rise in turkey hunter numbers and the addition of new techniques/ equipment used to harvest them. Pick your poison.

I will disagree a little where I hunt there are almost no turkey hunters so hunting pressure is not part of the equasian I have seen turkey hunters numbers almost vanish over the last 20 yrs yet I have a racoon running in front of the truck daily.

[Old Gobbler]

In Florida we started to experience this trend 15 years ago ...trust me it gets worse ! We only killed 500 gobblers STATE WIDE on public type 2 wmas last year!  Half of those were hybrids or eastens....sure plenty more were killed on private...but private land is disappearing fast due to land development....in 30 years time all that will be left will be public wmas and by that time I presume the tree huggers will have the Osceola on threatened or endangered list ...hear me now believe me later ...

If the rest of the country doesn't take steps to address the problems then they will end up like Florida in due time

[GobbleNut]

Nest predation is the elephant in the room. It's also the hardest to control. That's why it's all but ignored by most states dnr and the experts.  The drop in nest success correlates directly with falling fur prices.

It also correlates in the rise in turkey hunter numbers and the addition of new techniques/ equipment used to harvest them. Pick your poison.

I will disagree a little where I hunt there are almost no turkey hunters so hunting pressure is not part of the equasian I have seen turkey hunters numbers almost vanish over the last 20 yrs yet I have a racoon running in front of the truck daily.

Everybody is correct here.  The basic problem is stable, long-term reproductive success.  If you have that (which it appears a lot of places are not), the "human hunting" issue becomes moot, assuming sound management decisions about season timing, length, and bag limits are made (also questionable in some places). 

However, if that "stable, long-term reproductive success" is not occurring, the human hunting element most certainly becomes an important consideration in the viability of any turkey population.  Ultimately, both factors go hand in hand. 

[Tom007]

Very informative, great response info here. I want to say that the areas I hunt have had less hunters/pressure the past few years. Even during COVID, I did not see an increase in people in the woods, and did not see parked vehicles. My biggest observation has been that the woods I hunt has changed, gotten way thicker/denser. I have had predators come in to my call more frequently. On logging roads where I used to see Turkey tracks, I now see raccoon, coyote, and bear prints. Could the thicker cover make it easier for predators to ambush Turkeys? Have the gobblers learned that gobbling leads to ambush, so have they migrated towards less spring focalization? Years ago, Jake's came in screaming, now, they sneak in quietly. I sit and ponder all these thoughts with concern. What I have decided to do is step up my predator hunting. If I can take out some of these nest raiders, I will. That is something in my direct control, so I will take advantage of this. I only wish the Turkey nest raiders would shift to nailing goose nests, lord knows we have an over-abundance of these birds....they are crazy out of control.

[GobbleNut]

I only wish the Turkey nest raiders would shift to nailing goose nests, lord knows we have an over-abundance of these birds....they are crazy out of control.

Great comment,...and hadn't thought about that.   It brings up another good question:  In areas where they both nest, why is it that geese seem to be successful in keeping nest predators at bay and turkeys are not?  I would assume it is a function of the fact that goose parents both guard the nest and they are aggressive defenders of their nests and young,...while turkeys do not do either. 

...Maybe we should start a program of replacing goose eggs in nests with turkey eggs and see what happens...   

[Archivist13]

I only wish the Turkey nest raiders would shift to nailing goose nests, lord knows we have an over-abundance of these birds....they are crazy out of control.

Great comment,...and hadn't thought about that.   It brings up another good question:  In areas where they both nest, why is it that geese seem to be successful in keeping nest predators at bay and turkeys are not?  I would assume it is a function of the fact that goose parents both guard the nest and they are aggressive defenders of their nests and young,...while turkeys do not do either. 

...Maybe we should start a program of replacing goose eggs in nests with turkey eggs and see what happens...   

Yeah, walk up on a turkey nest and she will run away without a second thought. Do that to a goose, and you're likely to become the attacked instead of the attacker.