I have been shooting these shells since they were introduced with great performance, until this week (12 gauge, 3-1/2", 1200 FPS, 2 OZ. #5 shot). I was shooting my usual JellyHead .660 choke).
I sighted in a new scope and four shots at 40 yards using shells I bought probably three years ago shot 178, 174, 166, and 173 in 10 inches.
Satisfied with my usual results and having only two if these shells left, I opened a box of three I purchased last year and shot three from only 35 yards and was shocked with the pellet density. These new shells recorded 75, 73, and 90–very disappointing (last shot was with JH .665).
I dissected one of the new shells and everything looked good—#5 shot, slightly over 2 oz.
The pattern density was measured at the densest 10" and was on a 30" square of paper. The difference was obvious immediately without any measurement.
Any ideas?
Was the resin intact in the shell or was it shattered?
The resin was intact. There were only two or three loose pellets at the top of the wad. Also of interest is that the pattern center was the same as the older shells, but I was shocked at the VERY POOR density.
These are some of the poorest performing turkey loads I have shot. There has to be some explanation. Since my supply of the older shells is so low, I didn't dissect one of them, but will probably do so.
I did notice that the resin was present between the shot cup and the shell, but I suspect this is normal. I plan to shoot some in another 3-1/2" gun, hopefully this weekend. I have three boxes of these, all with the same lot number.
I also reported the problem via Winchester's website, so hopefully I will receive a reply.
What was the outdoor temp?
Temperature was 70 degrees.
I am beginning to think it was a problem with the resin not shattering. My patterning paper was actually 36" square. I plan to shoot at closer distance (25-30 yards) to see if there is a major part of the shot load remaining intact that is missing the paper at 35 yards. If so, it points to a problem with the resin with that lot number as the problem was evident with all three shots from that box and with two different choke tubes.
I did notice the resin was VERY hard to break with the point of a knife blade in the shell I opened, though that may be normal.
I do not know then. All the issues I have heard with the longbeards have been resin shattered in the shell before shot or the temps being low and the resin not releasing all the shot. There has also been issues with the plastic OSC breaking in magazines but that has nothing to do with this. Hope you can get it figured out and tell us your findings.
I had some that didnt shatter the resin and shot like a slug at 40 yards on paper and had maybe 20 pellets around it.
Still no answers! It appears the shot is all hitting the paper, but the patterns continue to be TERRIBLE!
Following are the numbers (in densest 10" circle) from today:
20 yards—154, 193
25 yards—116
Numbers from original post:
35 yards—73, 75, 90
The patterns are very scattered beyond 20 yards. I was hoping and thinking I would see a large "clump" at the closer ranges indicating problem with resin not shattering, but I did not.
I also shot a 3" Longbeard #5 from 40 yards and had 138.
I have three new boxes on order. Hopefully this will solve the problem.
I like to know how this turns out for you.
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Sorry for the stupid question, are you guys talking about the Winchester Longbear XR's? I had this with a shot from them last year
Yes, that is the shell, but mine all look normal. Additionally, I measured and weighed the shot load from one of the shells and they measured .120 (#5) and weighed slightly over 2 oz including the buffer.
The problem is, as evidenced by the numbers in my posts, is the patterns are terrible. I shot them from 20-35 yards and the best of the three 35 yard shots is half what I am accustomed to at 40 yards. I have shot this load exclusively since these shells were introduced and have never had a performance problem until this week.
I sent a request to Winchester via their website and am hoping they will respond.
Quote from: smh on January 18, 2020, 07:56:23 PM
Yes, that is the shell, but mine all look normal. Additionally, I measured and weighed the shot load from one of the shells and they measured .120 (#5) and weighed slightly over 2 oz including the buffer.
The problem is, as evidenced by the numbers in my posts, is the patterns are terrible. I shot them from 20-35 yards and the best of the three 35 yard shots is half what I am accustomed to at 40 yards. I have shot this load exclusively since these shells were introduced and have never had a performance problem until this week.
I sent a request to Winchester via their website and am hoping they will respond.
Mine all looked normal too, those pictures are from after I shot that shell. Only that shell gave me an issue.
Guess it's finally time to start chasing the good lot numbers for WW LBs. :angel9:
And that, in a nutshell, is why I handload. They are always the same.
I had high hopes for them after all the good feedback I heard on them,but tried them last spring and didn't even bother to count. Pattern was horrible.
Be glad you patterned and didn't just run out hunting with them.
I would try a different choke tube first or at the very least try a different type shell in that same tube. 665 range might do better than .660 with that heavy load of 5 shot.
See my original post.
I did try a .665 at 35 yards, and it was slightly better than the .660-–75 and 73 from the .660 and 90 with the .665. Even with the 90 hits, this is about 50% if what I am accustomed to and five yards closer than my usual 40 yard pattern testing.
Again, this compares with consistent 170s from 40 yards with a .660 for the last several years with the same load.
Did you shoot at 35 last year or just at 40? Maybe try one at 40 and see how it compares to your 35 yd patterns. That shell is crazy sometimes. I would still try a different shell in that choke tube and see if you get your usual numbers with it. Good Luck
See my reply #7. Immediately after the very poor performance at 20 and 25 yards, I shot a 3" #5 Longbeard through the same .660 choke at 40 yards and had 138 in 10".
Try cleaning the barrel and the choke super good. Clean the choke with Hoppes then give it a overnight soak in Hoppes and clean it again. I had a similar problem year before last with Longbeards. Gun went from shooting 200-205 in 10 to 120s. I had been trying different shells in it playing around and put a Longbeard 6 in it and pattern was way off. Cleaned the gun and choke as mentioned above and cleaned all the Hoppes residue out of the barrel with denatured alcohol and it went back to normal. Only difference was this was with the same box of shells. Choke was a Sumtoy 665.
I will definitely try this, but note that I DID use two different choke tubes, and also that the pattern went as follows with seven consecutive shots in the same shooting session:
"Old shell lot" for shots 1-4 from 40 yards) and "new shell lot" for shots 5-7 (from 35 yards)
1. 178
2. 174
3. 166
4. 173
5. 75
6. 73
7. 90
As you can see, the pattern was more than cut in half between shots 4 and 5 and with the distance of shot 5 being five yards closer.
I did receive a message from Winchester last week and am awaiting their return call.
I also received purchased three new boxes I plan to try next week.
I WILL provide updates to the forum when I have more information.
Thanks!
Hopefully its something simple and not the shell. I will switch back to old Winchesters if you find they have become inconsistent from lot to lot. PM sent.
Update:
As I indicated in an earlier post, I recently purchased three new boxes of the 3-1/2" 2 OZ #5 Long Beards and had a chance to shoot them last week. Their performance was better than the suspected "bad lot" but considerably below my historical numbers as follows:
From 40 yards (not 35), the shells I purchased two weeks ago put 138 and 102 in a 10" circle (compared to an average of 79 for three shots from 35 yards for the "bad lot"). I suspect, as others have suggested, I can improve these numbers with choke selection, but I am disappointed they are so far below my usual 170s in 10" for the last several years.
ALSO, Winchester has replied to my online report submitted via their website, and will be examining the suspected "poor lot." They are sending UPS to pick them up, hopefully tomorrow. I hope to have a report from Winchester/Olin soon.
I will update this thread when additional information is available.
Sounds like their working with you which is a positive. Keep us posted.
I shot longbeard since their inception until I started shooting tss last season. I never got 5s to shoot good through my gun so I shot 6s with well beyond average results. they were fantastic. never had an issue....however......My gun was only good for about 3 shots and the pattern always started to fall off pretty drastically. I don't know if you are cleaning your barrel, but I always polished mine before season, and would shoot no more than 3 shots on the range between cleanings. Longbeards are some of the dirtiest shooting shells ive ever seen , don't know if its the powder or the resin...but it sludges my barrel quickly. like I said lets say I shoot a shot and it puts 250 6s in a 10" circle at 40. "870 21" barrel 3" 6s" after shot 3 im down in the low 200s 215-225ish.....if I continue to shoot it always settled out below 200 slightly and it stays there consistently until I clean the barrel again. so I would suggest at least trying that. if you are worried about using hoppes and leaving a residue in your barrel use denatured alcohol. I shot a lot of long beards when I was finding a choke and seeing what was the most optimal and for my 870 with a short barrel it needed to things to shoot 6s well....a tight choke "sumtoy 655" and a super clean barrel. also I shot shells from a polished barrel vs a clean non polished and that increased my pellet count about 20 pellets alone. something to consider.
Reply from Winchester (no help!):
Hi Mike,
All of the test results are kept proprietary, but did add all of your notes to the file so our QA team could see them.
We appreciate you letting us know about the issue and a check will arrive in 1-2 weeks to get you reimbursed for all of those shells.
Might want to try #6 shot. Good Luck.
Did you try cleaning the choke and barrel super good? I have had this problem, as mentioned before, with Long beards and Fed Hwght. 7s. Usually it was after 2 to three shots and you shot a lot more than that according to your posts. Longbeards seem to be pretty dirty and it is worth a try. Hwght 7 patterns in a h and r 20 gauge would more than drop in half when the gun was dirty. The 12 gauge 3 inch 6s would go down numbers wise considerably. Sum toy and jelly head chokes seem to need cleaning more than others I have shot. Denatured alcohol seems to make a big difference at the end also.
Quote from: tnanh on February 19, 2020, 02:17:23 PM
Did you try cleaning the choke and barrel super good? I have had this problem, as mentioned before, with Long beards and Fed Hwght. 7s. Usually it was after 2 to three shots and you shot a lot more than that according to your posts. Longbeards seem to be pretty dirty and it is worth a try. Hwght 7 patterns in a h and r 20 gauge would more than drop in half when the gun was dirty. The 12 gauge 3 inch 6s would go down numbers wise considerably. Sum toy and jelly head chokes seem to need cleaning more than others I have shot. Denatured alcohol seems to make a big difference at the end also.
long beards shoot very dirty. cleaning the barrel every couple of shots is a must in most cases.
Shot my 12ga this week. Started using long beards last season as I was running out of my favorite load by federal that they dropped, the 3" 2oz #5. So I was getting some pretty amazing patterns out of my 1300 with a pure gold 670 ported. Had a new box of 1 3/4 #5 just like I had been shooting. Shot at 30yds and it looked a lot worse than my 40yd from last year. Then I shot at 40yd and had a hole in the paper that looked like a slug and about half the hits I was getting. My numbers went from 150s in 10" last year, to 70s this year.
I still had a box of 1 7/8 #5 so I tried those and they were doing great but a little scary tight. I might use them some but I'm probably going with double X 5s as they were throwing a pretty good pattern.
I just don't think a can trust these long beards. I'm guessing the resin isn't breaking up all the way. Could just be a lot problem but I'm not going to find out.
When my POA/POI started to wander around and occasionally I would shoot a pattern that looked like a slug I was done with Longbeard shells. Went back to old school shells like Win XX 3" 6's and the consistency is awesome. Nothing worst than a turkey coming in and wondering if your pattern is going to go left or right or if a slug is going to come out of your gun.
That being said, I bought a stockpile of Longbeards several years ago when they came out. Guess they will be worth something to someone since the new production of shells sound terrible.
Have been hearing about some issues with current production Winchester LB shells. Was helping a buddy with patterning his 21" Rem 870 a couple of days ago. He shoots a .665 Undertaker choke tube and Winch LB 3-1.75-5s. With early manufactured shells he was averaging around 130/10, not great for that shell but decent. Shells bought last year averaged 109/10. Shells bought this year averaged 55/10 for three shots - 68, 60, and 37/10. Yes you read that correctly - 37/10". That is beyond pathetic. And yes, we were shooting at big paper, from a rest, barrel bore-snaked between shots as is his practice, at 60 degrees in calm conditions. Not my first rodeo.
So I let him borrow a couple of my chokes that are normally superstars in Remington barrels. My IC BDS .665 did 70/10 and my JH .660 did 37/10. Those shells in these three choke tubes are not capable of taking a gobbler at 40 yards.
So, if you shoot LBs and bought shells this year, be sure you pattern them before you go out and miss or wound a big gobbler.
Missed a bird at 35 yards. Found my wad and this is what it looks like. Also found the fiber disk that sits behind the wad. It has 3 pellet strikes which means it somehow ended up in front of some of the shot. Close inspection of the wad, I can see that one of the petals has a very clear place with the machining marks of the chamber imprinted. Like the wad glued momentarily to the chamber wall. This caused the wad to crumple, spin in the bore, and probably came out spinning laterally.
I can see shiny resin adhered to the front portion of my chamber.
Anyone else see mangled wads?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200409/808a064ee4760627afca4b4f966b0a27.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200409/ac47c8cbf4459da74e64847400236819.jpg)
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The wads with torn petals also worried me and I posted about it a couple years ago. I still shoot some older magnum 6s in a Sumtoy .665 choke and get 200 in ten at 40 yards consistently with no petals ripped off the wads. Jellyhead .660 and .665 ripped wads severely as well as a Rhino .660. The other problems you saw I did not notice but havent shot any newer lot numbers.
I am shooting a carlson .660.
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Wads are shredded with current production LBs (3"-1.75-5s) from a Benelli with factory .665 choke and an 870 with Undertaker .665, JH .660, and IC .665. Don't know if that contributed to our poor results or not.
When I had the torn petals I had also used a carlson 660 that tore them. I shot a Carlson 670 and they were much better. My numbers were just ok but my poi moved around like a lot of people complain about with the Long beards. I was mostly shooting the 4s. These were in my 870 with the 1 3/4 loads at the higher velocity. I had some of the lower velocity 1 7/8 #6 loads and tried them with a single shot threaded for Rem choke and the Sumtoy 665. Patterns were unbelievable consistent, no torn petals and consistent poi. I dont know if it was the choke or lower velocity or changing to 6s but my guess is it was both the choke and lower velocity. Best I remember in the old post someone else had mangled wads and said their patterns were not affected.
I wish I had the ability to provide pictures of the chamber imprint on the wad. I am quite sure it was glued to the chamber wall at some point, which seems impossible. I wonder if the melting point of the liquid buffer was lowered in newer shells.
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All I know is I had a gimme shot at a gobbler at 30-35yds a few years ago. Must have hit the turkey with the fringe of the pattern and had the gun on him. Chased the turkey about 150yds through the woods with my gun jammed until he took flight. At that point I didn't hunt with them any more and went back to shooting XX 3" 6's 140-160's in a 10 @ 40. Shot some LB's recently out of a 870SM/Extra Full .687 at the range and shot 230's at 35yd with the 3" and 3.5" 6's. Just don't trust them enough to Hunt with them. Have had the POI drift around shooting the gun off a vise, patterns cut in half, mangled wads, and now head numerous reports about the shells not firing. If you just go out and shoot a few shells with LB's they look like the best thing since sliced bread. Do some in depth testing and inconsistencies and issues is what you find. Never had these issues with any of the Winchester lead turkey loads. Have cases of the Win XX, HV, Super X loads. Will revisit the LB's at a later time.
Selling my boxes of Win LB's to the local hardware store.
I also posted before about issues with win Longbeard shells. I had major issues with the poi moving around everywhere as well. I killed several birds with them ( 3.5" 2oz 4's) then one day I completely missed a bird. Everything was perfect about the shot and distance except I just didn't connect with him. It really bugged me. So I went to the bench and commenced to shooting patterns at 40 yards off of bags with the same setup, red dot, and shells. I was astonished at what I was seeing. Every single pattern I shot had a different poi. Some the core was almost completely off of the 8"x12" target stapled to the backing paper I was using. Clearly equal to clean misses on a live bird. I started to blame the optic at first then thought I'm not changing anything and decided to try a different lead load at the big paper to see if they too would be wondering around, which would indeed point to an optic problem. Had zero issues with those loads. Then tried another load. No problems with them either. I was done with long beards after that! I wouldn't shoot them again If they were free. I have to have full confidence in my equipment and more importantly it's not fair to the turkeys that we hunt to possibly be wounded or injured only to die a slow and painful death caused by subpar ammo or any other equipment for that matter.
I had an issue with a batch of #5 I bought last year. It's back to the good old 3.5 winn high velocity for me.
Any updates on recent Lb ammo? Has this issue been resolved? Impressed with some of the patterns and was thinking about getting some for my 12ga.
Quote from: Ranman on May 26, 2021, 08:18:12 PM
Any updates on recent Lb ammo? Has this issue been resolved? Impressed with some of the patterns and was thinking about getting some for my 12ga.
Problems have been going on ever since they came out.
Clark Bush (ALLABOUTSHOOTING) did some breakdown of the resin inconsistencies a few years back.