It's official, Oklahoma is going to one bird statewide and delaying season 10 days for spring 2022.
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Another screw job by odwc. Their biologist can present charts and graphs and talk about the low population but can't offer any real solutions when the solution is the elephant in the room. To many predators.
Welp, looks like I will be hunting more states next year...
Another side effect of state's delaying their season/reducing limits is the added pressure to other states....Which in turn could cause those states to do the same or restrict non-resident opportunities.
Just this past spring we've saw the following changes for spring 2022:
Alabama: Delay public land seasons 1-2 weeks, reduce bag limits to 2 birds/public land area.
Georgia: Delay public land seasons 3+ weeks, reduce bag limits to 1 bird/public area. Enact more draw hunts.
and now Oklahoma.
That is going to be A LOT of displaced traveling turkey hunters wanting to go somewhere else to kick their season off early! And they are running out of options. Just something to think about...
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on June 29, 2021, 06:46:58 AM
Another side effect of state's delaying their season/reducing limits is the added pressure to other states....Which in turn could cause those states to do the same or restrict non-resident opportunities.
Just this past spring we've saw the following changes for spring 2022:
Alabama: Delay public land seasons 1-2 weeks, reduce bag limits to 2 birds/public land area.
Georgia: Delay public land seasons 3+ weeks, reduce bag limits to 1 bird/public area. Enact more draw hunts.
and now Oklahoma.
That is going to be A LOT of displaced traveling turkey hunters wanting to go somewhere else to kick their season off early! And they are running out of options. Just something to think about...
I agree. I've never had much interest in hunting another state except New Mexico and that wasn't as much about the turkey hunting as it was the shed hunting. I always travel within Oklahoma and hunt different areas, but what will most likely happen next year is as soon as (if) I kill my 1 Oklahoma bird, I'll be headed to a neighboring state. If it'll help our birds, then I'm all for making rule changes, but SE Oklahoma has had a 1 bird limit and a later season for about 12 years and it hasn't helped here.
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Another thing that will likely happen is that guys just won't report their first kill and will continue hunting. I am sure some are already doing that, but this could make the problem worse.
They aren't biologist , book nerds , unable to comprehend all the diversity that is mother nature . How I long for years past . This is all they have ? I promise you the real hunters can do better than this . We will probably have a couple good years recruitment and they will pat themselves on the back . Never mind they haven't been able to pat their backs in the se for ten years with the same reg. Insanity , expecting different results with the same regulation . They remind me and act like some other people I hear in Washington D.C.
So, what do you guys think Oklahoma fish and Wildlife should do right now instead of lowering bag limit?
Quote from: deadbuck on June 29, 2021, 10:20:37 AM
So, what do you guys think Oklahoma fish and Wildlife should do right now instead of lowering bag limit?
I'm an Okie, and probably have as much vested interest in Oklahoma turkey hunting as anyone. I'm in favor of the two bird limit instead of the three until we turn it around. Unfortunately I don't think the wildlife department is going to turn it around. It is going to be hunters who do.
First I believe that the state should have been broken into six zones NE, SE North, South, SW, and NW. One tom per zone. Then the Tom turkey definition should be changed to exclude bearded hens and Jake's. I don't think the later season is a bad idea and non residents going to a single tag is fine with me.
Now for the big deal. Oklahoma is a two buck state and with that in mind start a predator bounty. I propose a point system. Coyotes 4 points, bobcats 4 points skunks, 2 points possum's 2 points, hogs 6 points and coons5 points. Once a person gets 30 points they have met the requirements. Unless you check in online, via submitting a photo you can not buy your second buck or turkey tag. Simple reduction of predators.
The biggest reason people don't control the predators is they are two preoccupied with other things.
Honestly, I'd like to see nonresidents limited to 1 bird while residents keep a 2 bird limit. The department is only making $10 dollars off of the 2nd tag. In the meeting, they said of the hunters who checked more than 1 bird, over 40% were non-resident hunters. A 1 bird limit for NR would have saved quite a few gobblers. I know some argue that saving gobblers doesn't necessarily have a huge impact on turkey population health, but that's what these regulations are trying to do, so 1 bird for NR would accomplish that as well.
I'd like to see the department put more emphasis on predator control and encourage more that as well. Loosen restrictions on predator hunting at night would be nice.
I don't have the answers, but where i live in the SE corner we already have the rules they applied to the remainder of the state and it hasn't helped yet. That's all i know.
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Me and Sam were typing our replies at the same time and said basically the same thing. Kind of echoes a thought i had when i seen the proposed rule changes. When the ODWC sent out the survey, they were asking for comment on going to a 2 bird state. They never said anything about a 1 bird state. In the meeting, the biologist presenting the data said they had overwhelming support of changing the bag limit, but it's only because they asked about going to a 2 bird limit. Had they asked about 1 bird limit, i believe they would have been faced with strong opposition in their survey. I kinda feel like they snuck that in on us and i don't like it. I know it doesn't matter, but i don't think I'll be participating in any more of their surveys in the future.
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It wouldnt surprise me if states that are in dire shape suspend NR hunting in the near future
I live in ks and would be fine with restrictions for nonresidents in any state that is having a decline in turkey populations. States need to get a better understanding of what the actual population is, what direction is it trending towards, and what pressure can it withstand. Me personally, the days of unlimited over the counter tags and any bird fall seasons needs to be looked at closer, why do you want to kick a struggling resource while it is already down. To me at that point it becomes more about the dollar and less about the resource.
Hate to hear OK went to 1 bird total. I thought the one bird per county thing would help but I guess it wasn't enough. I can't blame them, the resource needs protecting. I hope they take some action such as bounties to decrease predator populations.
The department took a survey and received thousands of responses and suggestions but didn't act on even one . Why . Not even one . The collective body of turkey hunters in Oklahoma couldn't even produce one usable suggestion . They opened the book to page one then closed it . Don't confuse this with hunters unhappy with lost opportunity , this is about hunters wanting real solutions to a bird and a hunting heritage we hold dear and believe other measures need to be implemented . This forum for the last few years has been engulfed with suggestions and ideas on dwindling numbers , the department knows , it is no secret . Why would they not enact at least one . here is some of my suggestions .
1. Test blood samples of harvested birds .
2. Prohibit horse back riding in wma's during nesting season .
3. Stop controlled burns in nesting season .
4. Control harvest by zones , not counties .
5. Outlaw any and all hen harvest , duh.
6. Increase opportunity on predator hunting , extend fur bearer season .
Just a few , don't want to just be repeating what has been said . I am not against out of state , would support a one tag out of state . I believe we are all Americans and share in her resources .
I believe the department is getting political and like a politician they don't listen to their constituents , this heritage is to important to me to watch what I believe is mishandling .
I readily admit , Turkey hunting is a part of me and I enjoy it immensely .
They have done so well with quail. Seriously I would stop hunting turkeys for a few seasons if that would help. However it's feels they are recognizing there is a problem but dont know the cause. So they feel the need to do something and this is what we get
I honestly don't know all the reasons for the decline of turkeys in all areas. I'm not sure anyone does. I suspect the weather is a huge factor in some areas, maybe predation in others.
Do I think reducing the limit of gobblers during the Spring season will solve the problem? No. And, I am not sure anyone else does either, but it may help to have a little more carryover.
I think many areas of the country are experiencing such a decrease in overall population, and perhaps most importantly, in the number of hens, that the solution may be to go back to the same methods that allowed the wild turkey population to expand decades ago, namely trap and transfer, and closed seasons on a local basis for an indeterminate period.
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Quote from: Mkeller on June 29, 2021, 02:55:59 PM
I live in ks and would be fine with restrictions for nonresidents in any state that is having a decline in turkey populations.
Iowa has done this for years with fall turkey hunting - limited to residents only.
Quote from: Neill_Prater on June 29, 2021, 10:49:40 PM
I honestly don't know all the reasons for the decline of turkeys in all areas. I'm not sure anyone does. I suspect the weather is a huge factor in some areas, maybe predation in others.
Do I think reducing the limit of gobblers during the Spring season will solve the problem? No. And, I am not sure anyone else does either, but it may help to have a little more carryover.
I think many areas of the country are experiencing such a decrease in overall population, and perhaps most importantly, in the number of hens, that the solution may be to go back to the same methods that allowed the wild turkey population to expand decades ago, namely trap and transfer, and closed seasons on a local basis for an indeterminate period.
I've made similar statements every time this topic comes up. The obvious solution is to determine the actual/factual causes of turkey population declines in specific areas and begin to implement management strategies to address them. That should include,...at this very moment,...a nationwide evaluation of turkey populations that could be tapped for T&T programs and getting all the negotiations and "paperwork" in place to initiate the relocation of turkeys, by subspecies, from areas with surplus numbers to those areas that need them.
Of course, this also requires funding mechanisms for such programs,...and an "entity" that will put pressure on management agencies to direct that funding towards these supplementation programs (hint, hint,...you NWTF members!)
Turkey management philosophy at this moment in time appears to be one of "let's conserve the birds we have left by managing human harvest and hope that conditions improve and we start having reproductive success". That is all well and good,...except for that it is "reactive " wildlife management instead of "proactive" management. At some point there has to be the recognition by managers that it is very likely they will have to reinforce turkey numbers artificially by T&T programs. They should be preparing for that reality right now.
Always keep in mind in these discussions that the more adult turkeys you have "on the landscape" when you finally have a good nesting season or two, the quicker your turkey population can recover. The management decisions that are being made by a lot of our wildlife agencies at this time are simply based on that premise. Hence, the reductions in human harvest.
I think it's hard to manage something if you dont really have a good idea how many there are, how many are being harvested, and what is a sustainable population to number of permits issued.
Best thing Oklahoma could do!!!!! Moving the season back and lowering harvest rates.
I will readily admit I do not have an answer to any states decline, but I do have some suspicions. Here is my list of suspect causes and suggested fixes:
Causes: It's a natural response to habitat carrying capacity
Solution: Habitat improvement/ protection, but this has a ceiling and we may be to a place we just have to accept what we have
Cause: Depredation
Solution: Kill as many of the SOBs as possible....the most fun option
Cause: Genetically stale populations
Solution: Trap and transfer
Cause: Disease
Solution:Test and diagnose and restrict movement and harvest. This is the worse case scenario and would be a tough pill to swallow. Kind of like covid, it'll run it's course and we won't be able to stop it.
Cause: Spring nest interference, this includes human interaction from hunters and other recreation.
Solution: Reduce access and restrict human entrance to habitat. Actually reduced bag limits will do this some. I think there is far more hens bumped off nest by hunters than we realize and many of those are abandoned.
Cause: Fall season and harvest of hens and poults
Solution: Close fall seasons. I personally don't think this is a problem. For decades states sustained populations with fall hunting. I have a hard time believing it is a root cause, but as much as I love fall hunting I do believe it is a viable solution in stressed populations.
Good list, eggshell. :icon_thumright: I will add a couple more that has been brought up a time or two in the past, and which also needs some investigation, I believe:
Cause: Egg infertility, fragility, and reduced survival rates caused by widespread use of pesticides, herbicides, and other toxins.
Solution: More extensive research of these substances to determine impacts on egg viability and poult survival.
Cause: Mortality rates relating to farming practices and forest management practices
Solution: Investigate impacts of farming methods such as mowing, tilling, etc. during nesting season. Investigate impacts of prescribed burning during nesting season. Adjust both as needed by defining best management practices relating to both.
Eggshell that was an excellent post. I would add that weather, whether extended drought or a very wet late Spring, has had an impact in certain areas. I enjoy taking out novices or inexperienced hunters even though I may well have tagged out. This keeps the sport growing but the end result is more turkeys are killed. I have no idea if that is a significant factor, but I suspect there are many of us who assist friends and family who otherwise would not kill a turkey.
Game cameras, decoys, fanning, better sights, blinds, better camo, better ammo and how to videos have all played a part in more kills.
It's a very complicated issue, but I can vouch that I have been seeing and hearing far fewer birds than in years past.
Quote from: PalmettoRon on July 02, 2021, 09:00:50 AM
I would add that weather, whether extended drought or a very wet late Spring, has had an impact in certain areas. .
Yeah, we missed that one in the list! The impacts of our changing climate cannot be overstated. That's not just in the obvious stuff like increased and widespread spring flooding during nesting season, but also in terms of the changes in the ability of disease vectors and other adverse biological agents to survive and spread in wildlife populations.
Unfortunately, the "climate horse" had dun left the barn and it doesn't look like he has any intention of getting back in....
And just like that KS and NE turkey sales skyrocketed for spring 2022. Seems to be this disease spreading from the south and east. Kill off all of the turkeys and move on to the next state. By 2030 we ought to have every turkey from OK to SD killed. On a serious note I might actually hunt OK next year as I'm sure it will cut down on overall pressure.
Good stuff eggshell
The USFS has been select cutting large chunks of the Ouachita Mts of SE Oklahoma. Then basically abandoning it. It just a few years it's a huge thicket that you can't get through. They do some burns but it's to little and to late. They are sort of checker boarded through out the Ouachitas.
I believe here it can be added to the list of problems turkeys are facing.
SE Oklahoma turkey season has been opening later than the rest of the state for about 10 years now, it has not helped. Not saying I'm against it, just saying it hasn't helped.
I'm not sure that the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife is willing or capable of being part of a solution. They spend lots of time, money and energy on the well being of black bears, not so much on turkeys.
I feel for the Residents of Oklahoma, I do! But WE all should remember, question the people making the rules, question their intentions. WE all should remember, without game these people are not needed. Without hunters, they are not needed. All people make mistakes, but these people are looking out for two things. They are looking out for the turkey, and they are looking out for the budget of the Oklahoma DNR.
Figure out yourself how many licenses are bought by NoN Res for turkey hunting and the price charged for that license. Compare to the Res license costs. You can easy see the issue with cutting out Non Res licenses, or even limiting them. Doing so, limits the budget of the DNR, limits research, limits habit development, limits everything!
I understand your feeling of not wanting additional hunting pressure in your home state, I do. But to suggest to limit or forgo Non Res hunters is not correct. If anyone really feels this way, they too should only be a resident hunter, not crossing state lines. Stay home.
By limiting Non Res hunters you are limiting your own comeback. Charge the NonRes even more, but don't make it to where they can't enjoy. One day you may wish you had their money when looking across nothing. Oklahoma needs money, money for research, money for habitat, money for issues causing deminishing populations.
I hope your population flourishes ASAP, I do.
Quote from: WV Flopper on July 04, 2021, 06:53:31 PM
WE all should remember, question the people making the rules, question their intentions. WE all should remember, without game these people are not needed. Without hunters, they are not needed. All people make mistakes, but these people are looking out for two things. They are looking out for the turkey, and they are looking out for the budget of the Oklahoma DNR.
Figure out yourself how many licenses are bought by NoN Res for turkey hunting and the price charged for that license. Compare to the Res license costs. You can easy see the issue with cutting out Non Res licenses, or even limiting them. Doing so, limits the budget of the DNR, limits research, limits habit development, limits everything!
I understand your feeling of not wanting additional hunting pressure in your home state, I do. But to suggest to limit or forgo Non Res hunters is not correct. If anyone really feels this way, they too should only be a resident hunter, not crossing state lines. Stay home.
By limiting Non Res hunters you are limiting your own comeback. Charge the NonRes even more, but don't make it to where they can't enjoy. One day you may wish you had their money when looking across nothing. Oklahoma needs money, money for research, money for habitat, money for issues causing deminishing populations.
Your statement about the need to balance the protection of the resource/wildlife, while at the same time providing for adequate funding for that, brings up a really good point. That point is that funding for wildlife management should not be based on hunting license sales. That is fundamentally a poor premise to start out with.
Wildlife management in a number of states is funded, at least in part, through a (very small) percentage of the state's tax base being dedicated to wildlife management. That eliminates the need to sell hunting licenses as the single, or primary, source to support wildlife management,...too often at the expense of the resource. Wildlife managers should not be faced with making that kind of a choice.
One other point to be made. The days of unlimited hunting opportunity,...either for residents or nonresidents,...are quickly fading. It has already happened in many western states with their big game hunting. The same thing is likely on the horizon for turkey hunting. We hunters have to at some point, look at ourselves in the mirror and ask ourselves if we want to limit ourselves for the well-being of the resource,...or do we just want to ignore that and go hunting regardless of how it impacts our wildlife populations?
Admittedly, that is a tough choice to be made,...and it is a hard pill to swallow for those of us that have seen the "good old days". However, it is the reality of where we are at this moment in time in some places.
Quote from: deadbuck on June 29, 2021, 01:00:20 PM
It wouldnt surprise me if states that are in dire shape suspend NR hunting in the near future
And where are they going to make up the lost monies? $142 for a NR license, that's a lot to make up.
Yes, but a temporary loss of revenue is better than a permanent loss
I think funding would go a long ways and for too long I feel we all pay too little! People bark at minuscule license increases and such but spend a fortune on all other things in life!!
Phones, over the top family vacations, new vehicles every other year, houses way over what's needed, furniture, their wives wants etc etc!
When you think about the joy hunting brings and the long seasons, plus the millions of acres of public land, we have been getting by far too cheap!!!
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Quality habitat trumps all! Turkey can rebound from poor hatches, predators and weather if they have a quality place to live.
Talking to a biologist in western OK. it seems there is a major problem with a lack of cottonwoods, not sure if they are dying off, being cut down or what exactly is the problem but they are the only place for a turkey to roost.
A property I hunted in Nebraska for years basically has one single cottonwood that birds roost in, it is dead and falling apart, once it is gone I doubt birds will use the property at all.
Central Illinois has seen a major decrease in turkey population in recent years, in my opinion bush honeysuckle is a major issue, some properties are completely taken over by it and some have little to none, the properties with it have few if any birds, properties void of it still hold good numbers of birds!
Quote from: Gooserbat on June 29, 2021, 10:38:01 AM
Quote from: deadbuck on June 29, 2021, 10:20:37 AM
So, what do you guys think Oklahoma fish and Wildlife should do right now instead of lowering bag limit?
I'm an Okie, and probably have as much vested interest in Oklahoma turkey hunting as anyone. I'm in favor of the two bird limit instead of the three until we turn it around. Unfortunately I don't think the wildlife department is going to turn it around. It is going to be hunters who do.
First I believe that the state should have been broken into six zones NE, SE North, South, SW, and NW. One tom per zone. Then the Tom turkey definition should be changed to exclude bearded hens and Jake's. I don't think the later season is a bad idea and non residents going to a single tag is fine with me.
Now for the big deal. Oklahoma is a two buck state and with that in mind start a predator bounty. I propose a point system. Coyotes 4 points, bobcats 4 points skunks, 2 points possum's 2 points, hogs 6 points and coons5 points. Once a person gets 30 points they have met the requirements. Unless you check in online, via submitting a photo you can not buy your second buck or turkey tag. Simple reduction of predators.
The biggest reason people don't control the predators is they are two preoccupied with other things.
Interesting post. You recommend that people kill animals in order to get points to allow them to kill more animals. What would be done with these points animals? Toss them in the ditch?
Quote from: Paulmyr on July 17, 2021, 01:23:56 AM
Quote from: Gooserbat on June 29, 2021, 10:38:01 AM
Now for the big deal. Oklahoma is a two buck state and with that in mind start a predator bounty. I propose a point system. Coyotes 4 points, bobcats 4 points skunks, 2 points possum's 2 points, hogs 6 points and coons5 points. Once a person gets 30 points they have met the requirements. Unless you check in online, via submitting a photo you can not buy your second buck or turkey tag. Simple reduction of predators.
The biggest reason people don't control the predators is they are two preoccupied with other things.
Interesting post. You recommend that people kill animals in order to get points to allow them to kill more animals. What would be done with these points animals? Toss them in the ditch?
Indeed, this is the dilemma we face in wildlife management as it relates to predators, as well as some other species such as feral hogs. The problem is multi-faceted. We recognize that a balance is needed between predator (including humans) and prey, but we have also reached a point in our society that people, including many of us hunters, are uncomfortable with the concept of killing animals for no other reason than to increase numbers of game species.
It seems pretty obvious that the solution to recovery of declining species is a reduction in the number of other species that prey on them, as well as other factors such as providing more and better habitat,...as has been pointed out. However, the general public's attitudes about these matters are increasingly fickle.
Non-hunters are perfectly fine with killing rats, mice, and other species that are considered vermin,...but start controlling predators for the sake of providing targets for hunters and things get cloudy real fast. The bottom line is that we hunters now walk a very fine line in terms of justifying some of the stuff we do. Much care is needed in how we walk that line nowadays.
GobbleNut you are so right. We cannot take any of this stuff we do for granted it. It can be taken away, anything can if it becomes unpopular enough. Limits dwindle, land access becomes increasingly more difficult, hunting and fishing become more and more a privlage of only the very wealthy. This all can happen, and is happening.
I agree with you both. I am growing older (66) and less mobile all the time and my hunting days are less and not more, but I feel bad for the young people just getting started. I fear opportunities are going away all the time. Many will never know what we call "the good ole days".
I truly believe the biggest cause of our bird decline is predators/nest robbers. We have so many raccoons, coyotes, etc. that from what I have observed a rather small percentage of hens are even raising any poults. I did see a few birds of the year this morning coming to work, but I have only seen one other hen with poults this spring. I live in a rural area in western OK and used to see birds nearly daily driving back and forth in our area. I sometimes hear the problem is hogs, and maybe it is in some places. Most of the area I am around does not have hogs. I would guess that raccoons are a major culprit, and years ago lots of guys ran hounds and hunted them. Not so much these days.
I do not totally trust my suspicions. I believe research should be done to positively identify the reasons. Then when we have the cause(s) established, put together a game plan to address it.
I talked to a retired game warden yesterday that I bumped in to, and he told be about some of the large flocks he remembers around different parts of our county. One thing he mentioned that he remembered were there was usually a landowner or lease holder in that area that really loved turkeys and catered to the birds in different ways, like controlling predators, supplementing forage, etc. We may have to research some recipes for coons. LOL
I've had smoked coon before. It tastes like ham.