With the discussion on the possibility of regulating trail cams, it has me thinking. With ALL the new technology, what is your definition of Fair Chase? How far have we come and why should STATES rein in ASPECTS of hunting, other than the overharvesting of game?
You know the line... opinions are like your back side, everyone has one, There's going to be a lot of backsides on this here one. I'm gonna sit this one out, because my wife says my opinion doesn't matter!!!
Great question, and one that it seems nobody can put their finger on. What is considered fair chase by one fellow is considered to be unsportsmanlike by another. The best we can do, when all is said and done, is to adopt generally-accepted methods of hunting that result in the protection of the resource so that it can sustain itself, and with consideration to reasonable safety standards for those hunting it. Unfortunately, as it is right now, we hunters have just decided to go the old "circular firing squad" route. ;D
Man, a book can be written on that subject. For me personally it is when I can can feel like I have worked and earned my quarry. I would much rather put my personal hunting abilities to the test than lean on the easy, quick success methods that are so popular today. Dont get me wrong, we all lean on technology to some extent but I feel like as time has gone by we have lost a lot of the skills that many spent years honing to become good hunters. Now many can reach those same success levels just by implementing a lot of the newer methods and technology. I don't think this ends well for wildlife in the long run. In my opinion hunting should be challenging and take years of work and dedication to become proficient at it. I fear those days are gone now and the internet and social media has fanned the flames for many peoples desire for attention and admiration that a kill is all that matters. I also feel wildlife officials have chased the dollar to much by legalizing a lot of things that shouldn't be legal for normal, fully functioning people. Times have changed and for the most part I am not impressed.
But I have a feeling we will still hear the complaints of low game numbers, overcrowding and high predator numbers while many of those same people are using every means possible to fill every tag available and setting out food to feed those predators. I just shake my head at how self absorbed, lazy, and entitled we have become.
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College kids with real time game cams are going to eradicate turkeys in my area. Especially with no tagging system in place. All so they can post the pic on instagram. Problem is they kill the limit of 3 in about 10 days, and there is still 37 days remaining in season. You think they hang their guns up?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1xL83kATbw
It's a brew I dare not drink, but still to temptation I might fall.
Ok I'll take one stab at it :
To me it's hunting on the animals turf and with methods and approachs that gives the animal reasonable chances of escape/survival using it's normal instincts. Ploys and plays that use the animals distinct vulnerabilities to the point that his/her escape by daily survival instinct is greatly slanted or compromised enough that the game is fixed to the extent that survival is unlikely, is not "Fair Chase. Like going to a casino where the games are rigged against the player. We expect fair play by rules in our sports, like football, why aren't game animals afforded the same fair rules?
So I don't like the word "fair" in terms of an individual's circumstances. So I will apply that here to turkeys.
Some things I've read so far in this thread I'll expound on from my perspective.
First, I'm pretty sure wild turkeys are harvested on their own turf 100% of the time. So, from my perspective, I don't see a problem there.
Next, I think some hunting techniques are viewed as being easy. So with decoys, I think that some turkeys fall prey to decoys easier than others. I admit that I've had some quick, boring hunts using decoys. I've been on more hunts where decoys are more of a turkey deterrent than an advantage, at least where I hunt. This has led to me changing tactics, which happens to be more traditional, successful and enjoyable for me. So if I change tactics that leads me to be more successful in harvesting a turkey is that not cheating as I have read before in the context of "fair" chase? The poor bums that continue to use decoys and wonder why they aren't working have it tough. I had another local hunter tell me that since he quit using decoys they tag out quicker and more often. So intuitively that would lead to more dead turkeys which may cause a problem with population decline. The only way to know that using decoys is an advantage or disadvantage is to actually use them and experience it. My experience is only from the areas I hunt, so "your mileage may vary". I'll add to this that my son knows two young local boys that went hunting on the last day of the season this year and both killed turkeys. They didn't use blinds, decoys, game calls or anything other than they hid really well on land that hadn't been hunted all year and waited for the turkeys to walk by where they had seen them previously in the afternoon. One kid said he didn't see turkey hunting to be all that much of a challenge. For his particular situation I would agree. Was what those two teen boys did "fair chase"? The skill it took to sit quiet and still and figure out where to sit took a little skill. I told my son that if those boys take up turkey hunting and go more often their minds will change about how easy turkey hunting is.
I personally don't use trail cameras because I think it's expensive and too much trouble for me to go through. I imagine they are useful for finding out if and when game is in an area, which I imagine can be beneficial. I really don't think about them much.
I think the state game departments do the best they can. I can't speak to the monetary gain or political decisions used in the game law making process because I don't have the insights that go into making those decisions nor do I want that insight because I have enough to keep my mind busy with things I have Daily control over, like commenting in this thread. I trust that they have the best interest of the game and hunters in mind and leave it at that. I have seen several threads on this forum where game departments are changing the rules of turkey hunting in some states. I really don't believe there's a "one-size-fits-all" for all states. As far as folks breaking game laws, that's on their shoulders. Folks have always broken game laws and will continue to do so. I've known game wardens that have broken game laws they are supposed to enforce. People will be people. To me, following the game laws is a practical and easy way to follow "fair chase".
Lastly, I think eggshell's definition of "fair chase" was well done and should be commended. I may go back and read it again. However, I firmly believe that we humans have had a distinct advantage in the harvesting of animals since pre-recorded history. There's plenty of fossil evidence to support that, including the mere fact that we're still here and growing. We're doing too well in some respects. The main thing that separates us from our cave-dwelling ancestors is that they killed animals to survive and we do it for fun. At least for those of us that live in or near civilization in developed countries.
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IMO for turkeys its mastering calls and woodsmanship, personally not a big fan of decoys but still use them in some situations. I wouldn't mind decoys being regulated, but to each their own. I don't care if you have a trail cam on every tree of a property. Still have to fool that bird to come into range.
I guess you could characterize it as what is Moral, Ethical and preference. We first need to judge ourselves before judging others on how they hunt. We all need to be good individual in helping protect our natural resources and wildlife, I feel we can all do this regardless in what method we use as long as it's legal. It's all about your behavior, attitude and belief's in what's fair chase is in my opinion. It's not saying i think we should do away something, but i do feel we can voice our opinions on what we feel is right or wrong in what we would do in chasing wildlife. It's all about decisions right or wrong. Interesting post for sure. IMO..
More often than not it boils down to "what I want to do". Someone gets up in the air about decoys but uses cameras and vice versa. I just want to go hunting and not worry about everyone else.
Quote from: Gooserbat on June 22, 2021, 02:36:45 PM
More often than not it boils down to "what I want to do". Someone gets up in the air about decoys but uses cameras and vice versa. I just want to go hunting and not worry about everyone else.
That describes me. Worry about things YOU can control. If someone else does things another way or illegally that's on them. Would I report someone hunting illegally, yes. Would I degrade someone hunting in a way that I don't prefer, no. If a game law is made that causes me to have to change tactics or harvest fewer turkeys I'll abide by it. I don't have to like it.
I don't see anything fair when one loser loses, he dies! If the other participant loses, they go home, eat a good meal and gets a good nights sleep. Then a lot of times they get up the next morning and go try to kill the previous days winner.
Quote from: guesswho on June 22, 2021, 05:14:15 PM
I don't see anything fair when one loser loses, he dies! If the other participant loses, they go home, eat a good meal and gets a good nights sleep. Then a lot of times they get up the next morning and go try to kill the previous days winner.
You obviously haven't seen my hunting skills then. If I win they deserve to die. Darwinism at its finest.They would probably accidentally drown themselves the next day getting a drink.
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Quote from: guesswho on June 22, 2021, 05:14:15 PM
I don't see anything fair when one loser loses, he dies! If the other participant loses, they go home, eat a good meal and gets a good nights sleep. Then a lot of times they get up the next morning and go try to kill the previous days winner.
I question the whole "good nights sleep" thing during turkey season.
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Apparently what I am doing is fair chase, as the turkeys win way more than I win. Like the most interesting man in the world...... I don't win often, but when I do, all of life's other problems go away, albeit briefly. Nothing like fair chase in the spring turkey woods and hearing one thunder away.
What is Fair Chase? you must decide
Fair chase? I am not sure there is such a thing. Man has evolved very quickly over the centuries. Critters not so much otherwise we would not have to continue restocking to compensate for over harvesting. Game departments are in the middle by trying to regulate how large the harvest should be. They don't get much credit.
What's wrong with decoys? I once saw a set that were thousands of years old from Egypt. Native American Indians used them as well and everyone knows what great hunters they were - are.
People think too much and put limitations on themselves in the name of sportsmanship. I however think back to how hard it was to kill that first deer and especially that Turkey. Beginning hunters are very handicapped by lack of woodsmanship and knowledge of game. This is especially true when one has no mentor and must learn on their own. At this stage of the game fairness is slanted toward the game animal but over time the pendulum changes.
Most on this forum are older and have hopefully learned the tricks of the trade. What one individual may think is fair may be completely different from another's perspective. At a minimum we should not be so critical. Just my 2 cents. Not sure how I keep getting sucked into these biased posts.
Some awesome, very good, thoughtful responses to this question!
My opinion, it's not for me to decide fair chase. The states that I hunt make those guidelines law. It is my responsibility to follow those guidelines.
Individuals may not hunt the way I do, that's their call, not mine. I was taught that if a turkey is in shotgun range you did it right. This was way before fanning, cameras, at the beginning of decoys.
I will admit, I have pushed that. I hunt with a shotgun today that will plan out shoot better than any shotgun in the woods in the late 80's and 90's. TSS
I don't own a decoy, fan, or deploy cameras. "I have two cameras NIB", couple years old now. But, I ain't shooting Winchester Double X magnums no more either.
We all should think for a bit before casting stones. Not all, but lots of us running souped up shotguns today.
Food for thought. When I was in my early 20's I laughed at a flintlocker. He would get mad about percussion guns, inline guns were just out of the question! With the powder under his skin on his cheek he would explain to you how you were not doing the sport right.
Turkey hunting is about communicating with turkeys right? Calling them up, right?
Those two boys that killed turkeys the last day earlier in this thread..... That's hunting, that's woodsman ship. Did they call them up? No. But there was nothing unfair about what they did. Those turkeys had the ability to use all of their senses to avoid that situation. Kudos to those boys.
one cluck!
EXCELLENT responses! Even with ALL the added technology and woodsmanship we think we possess, we still lose the battle 98 to 99% of the time, AS IT SHOULD BE. Sometimes we get WRAPPED around the axles about what the other guy is doing, when we should concentrate on ENJOYING THE MOMENTS! As I age, Fair Chase is relaxing and enjoying every aspect of the hunt. If I manage to pull the trigger, that is icing on the cake.
Letting the land owner get really close before I take off running =" fair chase "
Quote from: deadbuck on June 22, 2021, 09:43:54 AM
College kids with real time game cams are going to eradicate turkeys in my area. Especially with no tagging system in place. All so they can post the pic on instagram. Problem is they kill the limit of 3 in about 10 days, and there is still 37 days remaining in season. You think they hang their guns up?
Dang. The turkeys in your area are either as numerous as the fish in the sea or just flat out dumb for college kids to regularly kill 3 in 10 days.
Quote from: Howie g on June 23, 2021, 08:53:44 AM
Letting the land owner get really close before I take off running =" fair chase "
:TooFunny: :toothy12: :toothy9: ;D Good one! ...Good to see a little humor in these discussions...
Quote from: eggshell on June 22, 2021, 10:02:32 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1xL83kATbw
It's a brew I dare not drink, but still to temptation I might fall.
Ok I'll take one stab at it :
To me it's hunting on the animals turf and with methods and approachs that gives the animal reasonable chances of escape/survival using it's normal instincts. Ploys and plays that use the animals distinct vulnerabilities to the point that his/her escape by daily survival instinct is greatly slanted or compromised enough that the game is fixed to the extent that survival is unlikely, is not "Fair Chase. Like going to a casino where the games are rigged against the player. We expect fair play by rules in our sports, like football, why aren't game animals afforded the same fair rules?
Good definition. I would say I agree!
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Fair chase? Ethics? Sporting? They're all personal opinions, and as such there will be a wide variety of opinions. The old schoolers will chime in and criticize those who don't hunt exactly the way they do.
In these discussions I always refer back to the same answer. Is it legal? If it is, then I support you using that method and wish you luck. That's the end of the discussion for me.
Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.
Quote from: WV Flopper on June 22, 2021, 09:58:42 PM
My opinion, it's not for me to decide fair chase. The states that I hunt make those guidelines law. It is my responsibility to follow those guidelines.
Individuals may not hunt the way I do, that's their call, not mine.
We all should think for a bit before casting stones. Not all, but lots of us running souped up shotguns today.
And there you have it!! :icon_thumright: Perfectly stated!!!
Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.
Quote from: Howie g on June 23, 2021, 08:53:44 AM
Letting the land owner get really close before I take off running =" fair chase "
LOL!
Quote from: Howie g on June 23, 2021, 08:53:44 AM
Letting the land owner get really close before I take off running =" fair chase "
Funniest thing ever read by me on OG
Quote from: Pluffmud on June 23, 2021, 09:06:09 AM
Quote from: deadbuck on June 22, 2021, 09:43:54 AM
College kids with real time game cams are going to eradicate turkeys in my area. Especially with no tagging system in place. All so they can post the pic on instagram. Problem is they kill the limit of 3 in about 10 days, and there is still 37 days remaining in season. You think they hang their guns up?
Dang. The turkeys in your area are either as numerous as the fish in the sea or just flat out dumb for college kids to regularly kill 3 in 10 days.
It is a well known and established fact that turkeys have become scarce on Public Land in Mississippi, but there are still some good populations of birds on Private land and that is where this foolishness is taking place. These birds are being assassinated by crawling in ditches and behind fence rows, etc. In a few years they will have killed out their breeding stock and even they wont have anything to hunt.
I've always been a "whatever floats your boat" type of person, as long as it is legal. But, I also think, for example, that shooting a turkey off the limb is unethical, even if not illegal in the jurisdiction you are hunting.
However, it is often a fine line. I'm guessing that the majority of you would consider it unethical and not fair chase, to use a drone to spot birds in a distant field, then walk to said field and whack a strutting gobbler. Right?
But what if you hear him gobble, or spot him from a high spot in the road a mile away and do the same thing, something I have done, or attempted to do on more than one occasion, as I am sure have all of you. Results the same. Dead turkey. So, is my use of binoculars unethical? What about my hearing aids? Without them I might not have heard the bird in the first place. Does that give me an unfair advantage?
Take the aforementioned cellular game cameras. On the surface, they seem exceedingly unfair. But, how often do you hit the woods with no clue whether there's a gobbler nearby or not? Probably not that often. How you come by that information might vary, but we still tend to hunt an area that we know has a bird in residence. Back in the day, I drove many a mile stopping at strategic spots trying to evoke a gobble so I could find a bird to chase. Still do from time to time. One could argue that isn't fair either.
In essence, there's really no such thing as "fair" when it comes to modern hunting anyway. It could be argued that the only truly fair chase is with a stick and string within walking distance of camp. The odds are stacked against the game from the git go, incredibly the game still wins more often than not.
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Fair chase is a matter of legality with terms considered by each state. Personal ethics are what govern the individual and what he/she deems a morally sound means of take. Sometimes those two things match up but most times they don't.
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ChesterCopperpot That is an excellent answer, I couldn't agree more.
I also agree with ChesterCopperpot.
Funny the OP started this thread. He got pretty destroyed on an ArcheryTalk thread trying to debate this topic. They had him tripping all over himself. :toothy12:
Quote from: CALLM2U on July 08, 2021, 08:43:21 AM
I also agree with ChesterCopperpot.
Funny the OP started this thread. He got pretty destroyed on an ArcheryTalk thread trying to debate this topic. They had him tripping all over himself. :toothy12:
Funny YOU don't have a clue what you are talking about since I've never been on Archery Talk. I started this thread because many on here have various opinions on what Fair Chase is to them.
Quote from: CALLM2U on July 08, 2021, 08:43:21 AM
I also agree with ChesterCopperpot.
Funny the OP started this thread. He got pretty destroyed on an ArcheryTalk thread trying to debate this topic. They had him tripping all over himself. :toothy12:
Looks like you'll be the one tripping all over himself now. :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny:
Quote from: deadbuck on June 22, 2021, 09:43:54 AM
College kids with real time game cams are going to eradicate turkeys in my area. Especially with no tagging system in place. All so they can post the pic on instagram. Problem is they kill the limit of 3 in about 10 days, and there is still 37 days remaining in season. You think they hang their guns up?
Come on, college kids cannot afford cell cams. And even the ones who can because of their parents-they still have to be out there for everything to come together. I don't even use cell cams or trail cams in general and even I know one does not simply see a pic of a strutter at 1030am and roll out there/shoot them. This just sounds ridiculous
I think it's pretty simple. If you're even questioning whether it was fair chase or not, it probably wasn't
If its legal go for it, and don't get on forums telling everyone what you are doing,then you don't have to worry about what they say. Also stop worrying about how everyone else hunts just enjoy what you do.
No need to write a book here about it. It's all about fooling them. Some here understand that.
i literally just woke up from a dream where i called a bird in so close i could not move my gun, so i reached out and strangled the bird to death.
then i woke up and felt bad lol