I've been hunting this bird for two years and blessed to have harvested him a couple of days ago. I missed him last year and came very close to taking him 3 more times and left the woods talking to myself. My question is, "how does taking the dominant bird out affect the rest of the flock?" In the flock left, there are 4 hens, 8 jakes, 3 2-year-old long beards... I believe he was a 3 to 4-year-old bird, 1- 1/4 spurs... just curious
Without a doubt all of those turkeys will die. There's only 11 other male turkeys to breed those 4 hens that should already be bred.
Those birds will sort out the pecking order pretty fast and a new "top Tom" will take the crown. But in the meantime, there may be some real good hunting as that opens up more gobbling and good hunting as they get to seek out hens to breed without fear of the "old boss" whipping their butt.
Be one in charge the next day.
There's a reason they kick his dead butt after you shoot him.
Read Dr. Mike Chamberlain regarding the impact of harvesting the dominant Tom on flock dynamics and the breeding cycle. In brief, another Tom doesn't just step up and become the dominant Tom with which the hens breed.
Assuming that the gobbler was the hen's preferred male, it may take the hens awhile to accept one of the remaining gobblers as a mate. However the remaining gobblers should be attracted to your calling if you tell them what they want to hear. Congrats on your kill.
After that dominant bird is killed it could take weeks or even months before another gobbler takes his place, it's all about going back thru the pecking order again. It took weeks and months for the pecking order to become established even before spring season ever began. So it's about fighting and another gobbler become dominant to take his place. I don't agree it will take place the next day.. i will say it will take place over time the new pecking order and new dominant bird replacing the one you killed. IMO
You may find that you have more gobbling birds there than you thought with him gone.
Quote from: davisd9 on May 10, 2021, 05:37:13 PM
You may find that you have more gobbling birds there than you thought with him gone.
Yes. My experience has proven this also.
If this dominant gobbler theory is right, how in the world did the population continue to explode for decades before the population crash. Dominant birds have been getting killed on opening weekends in GA for years and years and years and up until about 6-8 years ago, the population was steady to increasing throughout the state.
Honest question and not pot stirring. Do you think the increased use of gobbler decoys and tail fans have caused more dominate Tom's to die earlier in the season?
Quote from: Happy on May 10, 2021, 07:14:50 PM
Honest question and not pot stirring. Do you think the increased use of gobbler decoys and tail fans have caused more dominate Tom's to die earlier in the season?
Without question
Quote from: Happy on May 10, 2021, 07:14:50 PM
Honest question and not pot stirring. Do you think the increased use of gobbler decoys and tail fans have caused more dominate Tom's to die earlier in the season?
It's possible, but i see dominate gobbler less likely to leave his hens.
Quote from: Greg Massey on May 10, 2021, 07:44:39 PM
Quote from: Happy on May 10, 2021, 07:14:50 PM
Honest question and not pot stirring. Do you think the increased use of gobbler decoys and tail fans have caused more dominate Tom's to die earlier in the season?
It's possible, but i see dominate gobbler less likely to leave his hens.
They will leave them in a heart beat if they feel challenged or threatened.
I'm talking about normal hunting and calling to try and pull the dominate bird from his hens..
Yes, I think it has gotten more dominant birds killed.
But, if you watch the youtubers and the other pros, most are not killing the dominant birds even with strutter decoys. THey are killing the satellite birds.
Most of the videos show 2 or more birds coming in to fight and rarely are you seeing the whole flock (hens and all) coming into the decoy.
Dominant birds are definitely killed, but they always have been.
A lot of these dominant birds are the #2s and #3s. The true dominant bird is not leaving his hens when they are grouped up and ready to be bred.
Quote from: Sixes on May 10, 2021, 08:43:48 PM
Yes, I think it has gotten more dominant birds killed.
But, if you watch the youtubers and the other pros, most are not killing the dominant birds even with strutter decoys. THey are killing the satellite birds.
Most of the videos show 2 or more birds coming in to fight and rarely are you seeing the whole flock (hens and all) coming into the decoy.
Dominant birds are definitely killed, but they always have been.
A lot of these dominant birds are the #2s and #3s. The true dominant bird is not leaving his hens when they are grouped up and ready to be bred.
X2 good post and exactly what i'm meaning...
This is just my observations over the last 10 years or so but if my memory is correct jake decoys were all the rage for a while and then a few years later the strutting tom decoy started gaining mass popularity. Thats about the time the numbers started dropping. Now I am not saying male decoys are the total cause of the issues many are facing however i believe that they have played a part to some extent. That coupled with habitat loss, wet springs,predation and more people hunting i think are part of the problems as well. All combined it ain't good. I know a lot more baiting is going on than people want to admit as well. Heck I know guys who have it down to the day before they pull their corn piles in order to be legal for hunting. Other than that they feed them year round.
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Quote from: Happy on May 10, 2021, 09:12:55 PM
This is just my observations over the last 10 years or so but if my memory is correct jake decoys were all the rage for a while and then a few years later the strutting tom decoy started gaining mass popularity. Thats about the time the numbers started dropping. Now I am not saying male decoys are the total cause of the issues many are facing however i believe that they have played a part to some extent. That coupled with habitat loss, wet springs,predation and more people hunting i think are part of the problems as well. All combined it ain't good. I know a lot more baiting is going on than people want to admit as well. Heck I know guys who have it down to the day before they pull their corn piles in order to be legal for hunting. Other than that they feed them year round.
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Social Media has played a big part in more birds being killed. I think baiting has always been a problem in some area's and states also.. In our state baiting is illegal period regardless what your hunting.
I haven't watched any decoy hunting videos in years so I will just go with your observations.
However even if the truly dominate gobbler isn't killed and the #2 and #3 gobblers are getting killed i could still theoretically see it putting a wrinkle in things if it is a widespread occurrence. In most cases they are breeding some hens as well and big daddy can only attend to so many.
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Quote from: Happy on May 10, 2021, 09:23:34 PM
I haven't watched any decoy hunting videos in years so I will just go with your observations.
However even if the truly dominate gobbler isn't killed and the #2 and #3 gobblers are getting killed i could still theoretically see it putting a wrinkle in things if it is a widespread occurrence. In most cases they are breeding some hens as well and big daddy can only attend to so many.
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I agree that the satellites will breed, but from what I understand about the theory is that they will not breed with the hens or vice versa.
Personally, I just do not believe it nor do I believe that nature would put some kind of rule on turkeys that says the dominant gobbler does all the breeding and if he falls, then hens may be unbred.
Gobblers, even dominant ones, die from other natural causes. Owls, yotes, and spurs from rivals kill lots of birds and turkeys seem to survive.
Quote from: Sixes on May 10, 2021, 08:43:48 PM
Yes, I think it has gotten more dominant birds killed.
But, if you watch the youtubers and the other pros, most are not killing the dominant birds even with strutter decoys. THey are killing the satellite birds.
Most of the videos show 2 or more birds coming in to fight and rarely are you seeing the whole flock (hens and all) coming into the decoy.
Dominant birds are definitely killed, but they always have been.
A lot of these dominant birds are the #2s and #3s. The true dominant bird is not leaving his hens when they are grouped up and ready to be bred.
I agree with this.
I've only watched a couple of YouTube videos and they were a couple of Dave Owens'.
My experience has been that even with decoys the dominant Tom is almost impossible to kill when he has hens with him. Later in the day or later in the season is when I think the dominant Toms get whacked, which really shouldn't affect hens being bred that much.
The only times I think I've shot the dominant Tom is when my calling attracts his hens. Even then I've been able to pick a fight with the boss hen and watch her cross a field from 300 yards away to kick my butt only to watch the Tom and the rest of the hens stay put.
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Thank you all for your replies, some interesting education. I'm tagged out, but gonna get back out just to listen and watch...