This question extends beyond turkey hunting to other species as well, but I've always wondered why there is a desire to increase the difficulty in method of take at the detriment of efficacy. So with turkey hunting that would be the desire to move to a bow because killing one with a bow is more difficult than a shotgun, or moving to an air rifle because an air rifle is more difficult than a shotgun, never mind the fact that both of those other methods of take greatly increase the odds of wounding and injuring an animal.
Part of this question is coming from me having killed a turkey this year that had an arrow broken off in one leg. The bird was walking perfectly fine, strutting and gobbling. Killed him and when I started cleaning him as I was taking off one of the legs my knife started hitting something. I'd already freed the ball joint so I knew there wasn't any other bone there. The meat was gangrenous and stunk. I start looking and I pull out a broken off arrow and field tip. Now obviously the fact that the bird was shot with a field tip raises some other issues, but honestly even the bigger swhacker expandables and other broadhead options present problems.
All of this just got me thinking, why do so many hunters wish to increase the level of difficultly even if that "challenge" means increasing the likelihood of wounding and injuring the animals we chase?
Good thing you got to this one before gangrene killed him.
Archery hunting presents this problem no matter the species. But I suppose one thing that can be said in defense of archery seasons (as I know some states have archery-only periods for turkeys, also) is that it reduces hazard to other hunters and reduces pressure on the animals themselves, since 1) the difficulty you mention dissuades many hunters from taking to the field to begin with and 2) the close distance required to make a shot means more hunters will see animals but not effectively pressure them. This of course is less the case with turkeys, since only WV lets you rifle hunt them.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The person who did this especially with field tip arrow , I wouldn't label him as a HUNTER. I'm sure some of this happens regardless the type of weapon used.
since only WV lets you rifle hunt them. Not quite correct, we have to deal with the rifle hunters in VA as well, probably a few western states too if I were to guess.
Quote from: Greg Massey on June 16, 2020, 10:00:24 AM
The person who did this especially with field tip arrow , I wouldn't label him as a HUNTER. I'm sure some of this happens regardless the type of weapon used.
I absolutely agree. And, yes, these things certainly happen regardless of weapon. I've found healed over shot in the breast of turkeys and found healed over bullets in deer. The whole dynamic just strikes me as odd when we move to more difficult means of take in order to prove something to ourselves, to satisfy some selfish urge. I guess that's more a philosophical question than anything.
I switched to bow hunting most big game species 20 or 30 years ago because the seasons were better. Elk for instance in NM you get to hunt them during the rut with a bow. Now I live in Florida and bow hunt because the archery areas around here hold more mature bucks, finding one in the rifle area is next to impossible. Plus I really enjoy being proficient with a bow and all that goes with it.
That being said I don't really desire to hunt a turkey with a bow; a shotgun is plenty sporting for me. It's probably the only game species I would rather use a gun on. I'll probably never shoot one with a bow.
I would not consider this individual a sportsman. Some switch to a more difficult method for the sport of it and practice and are very successful at it. God bless them. I have a friend who goes to Africa uses a long bow or recurve only and has the trophy room to prove it. God bless him. As for me and turkeys i`m sticking with my shotgun!
I am all for making things difficult. I believe that is one of our primary ways of preventing the over harvest of game. However I don't believe that it should come at the cost of an ethical and human kill. That should be a responsiblity that all hunters take seriously.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
There are a handful who put in the time and practice to be efficient. They only take high percentage shots. They also don't pick up the bow and then pick up a couple of crutches to help offset the difficulty. These are a rate breed and my hats off to them.
Then others are driven by ego. They will use a bow but then take advantage of any other equalizer they can find. They will take marginal shots with a high probability of a miss, or even worse, a wounded animal. They do this in hopes of getting lucky so the can post a hero shot on social media craving oohs and aaws from their peers. A vast majority fall into this group and are a dime a dozen. They are often easy to spot. Just look for the war paint, clean, ironed and matched camo. And usually as many name brand products as they can get turned towards the camera. Smiles are usually non existent. There is usually a long read going into detail how difficult of a hunt it was to get the Gobbler to engage their full strut decoy at 10 yards from the blind. Not bashing anyone for doing it, more power to you.
If I understand you are asking is there is a reason to make the hunt more difficult at the risk of losing an animal.I think most hunters have an urge to return to the traditional methods of hunting whether it be to the ways of the native American or ancestors. The thought of losing animals does not come into the equation for most hunters. We practice to become proficient then hunt. I have tried both and found that I do not kill birds hunting with a bow without a blind. And do not like sitting in a blind to turkey hunt. So I hunt with a shotgun because it suits my style and I kill birds.
I can only speak to myself...
There certainly can be a fine line between increasing the challenge of harvesting game in an ethical manner, and increasing the challenge to a point of being unethical.
Certainly most of us on here would argue that hunting deer with a .22 would NOT be ethical. Most here would not applaud such practices.
This past season, I did decide to hunt with an air rifle...
I liked the idea of leaving a smaller human footprint while hunting.
I liked the idea of an increased challenge.
I liked the idea of learning a new skill and a new way to hunt and harvest game.
I like the idea that hunting with a pellet rifle opens up opportunities to hunt smaller parcels of land or land near cattle or horses that could not be hunted with a shotgun.
For me with a pellet rifle I was attempting to head-shoot birds. I was using an accurate .25 caliber rifle, in which I am capable of making 50 yard head-shots on squirrels, but never attempted any shots on marginal birds. (It turns out a 50 yard head-shot on a squirrel is easier than a 30 yard shot on a turkey as I found out). I had gun malfunctions, and missed (much to my surprise)... And never harvested a bird with a pellet rifle this season. Managed a couple with a shotgun (one on a rainy day, and one on the last day of the season when I finally threw up my hands).
Looking back on the season, I probably should have waited a season, and better prepared myself for the extra challenges of hunting with an air rifle. The largest challenge is setting up the gun for a shot when a bird does come into range, without bumping the bird. I can move and shoot a shotgun in under a second, and moving and setting up a pellet rifle on sticks takes more movement, and a minimum of several seconds (at least 10 or more seconds for me at this point)...
But, killing a bird on the ground with a shotgun at under 40 yards is not challenging in the vast majority of situations. The challenge of turkey hunting is getting that bird to where I can shoot him... The frustration of tricking birds into range is by far and large the fun part ... This season, I decided to add the frustration of making the harvesting of the bird vastly more difficult.
I think the valid reasons for choosing a less-effective weapons type have been stated above. Using a more restrictive weapons type often opens the door to additional hunting opportunities in the form of separate or longer seasons and being able to hunt areas with more game.
One of my "pet peeves" regarding the above is that having separate seasons for restricted weapons often encourages people to participate in those hunts that are not efficient with those weapons types. The example Southerngobbler brings up about elk hunting is the perfect illustration. New Mexico bull elk hunts in the rut are mostly restricted to bow hunting. What that does is encourage an awful lot of hunters to apply for those hunts that do not have good archery skills. Waaayyy too many elk are wounded in those hunts by people that have no business hunting with a bow.
Moral of the story: If you are gonna hunt something with a less-efficient weapons type, you oughta make damn-sure you are really good with it,...and if not, stick to what you are good with. The animals we hunt deserve as much.
Quote from: guesswho on June 16, 2020, 12:47:08 PM
Then others are driven by ego. They will use a bow but then take advantage of any other equalizer they can find. They will take marginal shots with a high probability of a miss, or even worse, a wounded animal. They do this in hopes of getting lucky so the can post a hero shot on social media craving oohs and aaws from their peers. A vast majority fall into this group and are a dime a dozen. They are often easy to spot. Just look for the war paint, clean, ironed and matched camo. And usually as many name brand products as they can get turned towards the camera. Smiles are usually non existent. There is usually a long read going into detail how difficult of a hunt it was to get the Gobbler to engage their full strut decoy at 10 yards from the blind. Not bashing anyone for doing it, more power to you.
I had written something very similar to this in my first post but decided that perhaps it would be stirring the kettle a bit too much. ...I'm glad you are the one that did it! :)
I don't know who arrowed that bird but he or she is an idiot for doing it with a field point, this type of person is the type that gives hunters and we arches especially a bad name. I remember I had just passed my archery course and some jerk going off on me about how we all leave antenna's sticking out of deer and so on, to me to be generalized like that is not different than a bigot generalizing somebody of color or religion, I don't like it in any way shape or form.
As far as to why I hunt with a bow or a muzzleloader for that matter it is because it is far more challenging to take an animal with a bow than it is with a gun, especially if not using a blind to cover your motion or a stand to put yourself above eye level. For me once I started to archery hunt and especially after taking my first deer with a bow I don't even like to watch hunting shows that are not using bows because it is just to easy to do with a gun. (Deer or other animals you take longer range shots than 40 yards on) so the shows are not enjoyable to me unless it is an animal that I have a large interest in like bear, moose or elk.
I can say very much the same thing for a muzzleloader (I have not gotten anything with a muzzleloader yet) it is not as easy as a rifle where you can shoot longer ranges with so it tests my abilities more.
I think the problem is in your hand and the person behind whatever bow was being used. The individual, IMO, didn't have the slightest idea what they were doing or just POT shot the animal. This is why, we need to know our equipment and limitations and stay within those limits. For the most part, I believe most HUNTERS do their part, practice with their equipment and know their limits. We ALL have pulled a shot, wounded an animal and couldn't find it but hopefully have disgust towards our self and learn from our mistakes. I don't believe for a second this was the case with this person!
"All of this just got me thinking, why do so many hunters wish to increase the level of difficultly even if that "challenge" means increasing the likelihood of wounding and injuring the animals we chase?"
I was pretty much thinking that we, as hunters, already do things to increase the level of difficulty to abide by our own personal ethics. Rifle shooting on private land is legal in Florida in the spring, but I would never do it. The key though is your ending. If increasing the challenge increases the likelihood of wounding or injuring, then any ethical hunter would just not do it. If someone gets proficient enough to kill with an arrow, have at it. If they get good enough with anything to humanely kill their quarry, I am all for it. They can jump out of a tree with a machete as long as they are good at it and I am cool with it.
I pretty much quit deer hunting because I found it boring. I did make it last a while longer by challenging myself with muzzleloader, then pistol, then bow. But the key was I got real good with what I was using. This was all before Al Gore invented the interwebs and no pictures were taken.
It is all a sport and it is all about the challenge within our own ethical standards. I am not much for judging others on theirs, as long as a base level of consideration for humane killing and recovery is followed (which is what you said).
Quote from: guesswho on June 16, 2020, 12:47:08 PM
There are a handful who put in the time and practice to be efficient. They only take high percentage shots. They also don't pick up the bow and then pick up a couple of crutches to help offset the difficulty. These are a rate breed and my hats off to them.
Then others are driven by ego. They will use a bow but then take advantage of any other equalizer they can find. They will take marginal shots with a high probability of a miss, or even worse, a wounded animal. They do this in hopes of getting lucky so the can post a hero shot on social media craving oohs and aaws from their peers. A vast majority fall into this group and are a dime a dozen. They are often easy to spot. Just look for the war paint, clean, ironed and matched camo. And usually as many name brand products as they can get turned towards the camera. Smiles are usually non existent. There is usually a long read going into detail how difficult of a hunt it was to get the Gobbler to engage their full strut decoy at 10 yards from the blind. Not bashing anyone for doing it, more power to you.
This one is dead on right
i lived the challenge hunt attitude briefly.... now i just like stacking bodies and filling freezers. i still have high standards when i fill tags but the shot and what ensues is just as enjoyable to me as the chase.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
We only get three birds per year in GA. I like to hunt turkeys more than I like to kill them. So I do things to make them harder to kill to stretch my season out longer.
I archery hunt due to increased opportunity. I'm not going to sit on the couch just because I can't take the shotgun. KS, NE, and SD it allows me to get started earlier. For SD it is an OTC tag that allows you to hunt the whole state vs prairie units where you must draw and can't hunt the eastern 1/2. When I was an IA resident it allowed me to hunt all four seasons instead of just two. I've also found it easier to get permission, especially when livestock are present. But the second shotgun season opens up I put the bow away. As far as wounding I've harvested zero birds with prior archery wounds and several with shotgun pellets in them. I wounded a couple with a bow and I've "missed" a handful with a shotgun.
It's called accepting the challenge. I started bowhunting when I was a teenager and now I rarely hunt anything but turkeys with a gun.
I much prefer bowhunting deer. We have a short, congested rifle season in Missouri, as do many other states. More idiots in the woods during rifle. I'd rather observe deer moving naturally than ones running for their lives after being pushed around by the pumpkin army. The season is much longer, I must know how to hunt them on early season feeding patterns, during all stages of the rut, and also the late season survivors. I can hunt in 80 degree weather or -20 degrees. I feel I learned more about the animals and their habits my first year bowhunting than I had all my previous years of only rifle hunting. That being said, I prefer shotgun hunting turkeys. I've killed a few with a bow, and likely will try it again someday. But I prefer shotguns. You can't tell me that sitting in a blind with $500 worth of DSDs and waiting them out is any more challenging than hunting them in the timber with just your camo and shotgun, and its much more fun to hunt them that way.
Good post budtripp.
While I haven't bow-hunted turkey yet it's my preferred method of hunting. I like Archery target shooting. I like the stealth required for bow hunting. Being in woods with far fewer people and not as many googan's appeals to me.
Speaking of bowhunting turkeys, for me there is a well-defined line between using a bow to "hunt" turkeys,...and using one for target practice at living critters. I will use the following story as an example of what I mean:
In the community I live in, there is a "youth hunting club" that was established by a small group of adults to introduce kids to hunting,...kids that otherwise would not have the opportunity. A few years ago, our Game Commission misguidedly made it legal to shoot turkeys over bait on private land (we have since got it outlawed again).
During the time it was legal, these adults were (again misguidedly) taking these kids to private lands they had access to and letting them shoot turkeys out of tent blinds set up a few yards from feeders with their bows. In summary, those kids were not "hunting" at all. They were merely taking target practice on gobblers. The adults somehow thought it was "okay" for them to allow that because they were making the kids shoot them with bows. (I also got wind that some gobblers got away with arrows sticking in them).
Fortunately, that practice was fairly quickly made illegal again after only a few years, but the moral of this story should be clear. Again, there is a difference between "hunting" and "target practice". Each of us needs to look in the mirror and ask ourselves which of the two we are participating in....