Just a little rant here. Arkansas has changed their season approximately 20 times in the past 30 years. We have changed once again.
April 19-May 9
Limit of 1 turkey the first week
Limit of 1 turkey during youth hunt
Limit of 1 turkey on WMA Quota Hunts
I have 3 major issues with this setup:
1. Limiting 1 turkey the first week seems to open a huge door for unregistered harvests. I was totally behind a proposal for closing hunting at 1 pm during the first week to lower the first weeks harvest...and it would be much easier to locate outlaws.
2. Limiting Youth Hunters harvests simply disgusts me. We (all hunters) have heard the stories of low license sales, hunter numbers dwindling, and kids needing to be taken hunting. I want kids to have more opportunities at unmolested turkeys...sure, there are times that youth hunts are taken advantage of, but this is a situation were the good outweighs the bad to me.
3. With the continuous changes to the Arkansas season schedule over it's lifetime, how in the world can any change be justified? I'm no math expert, but it seems that with a data pool saturated with a continuously changing time-frame, there could be no solid reason behind those dates.
Anyone who hunts Arkansas knows that the turkey situation here has been a sinking ship for quite some time. They are claiming that these changes will be unchanged for the next 5 years, but we heard that story a few years ago...just to have them changed again.
Sorry for the rant, but dang this commission burns my backside!!!
Whats wrong with youth having a one bird limit? I think youth season should be done away with personally. You want to talk about outlaws , Woods are full of dads toting 4 year olds and killing birds themselves. The kids are covering alot of illegal activity. Not all but several. The rest I agree with you.
Your state has a serious turkey population problem and they are clearly trying to adjust their approach to address the issue.
I wish more states were like AR, swiftly passing and implementing changes aimed at benefiting the wild turkey instead of the hunter!
So 1 the first week. Then what's the limit after that?
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 28, 2020, 05:30:03 PM
Whats wrong with youth having a one bird limit? I think youth season should be done away with personally. You want to talk about outlaws , Woods are full of dads toting 4 year olds and killing birds themselves. The kids are covering alot of illegal activity. Not all but several. The rest I agree with you.
Why do away with youth? Do away with gun hunting.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Some of my favorite memories are of youth hunts with my son. He killed his first three turkeys on youth hunts. I am glad the youth get a chance at them before the regular season starts.
Interesting, i see changes in the future for several states. Just remember if you agree and want less for your state , it's always harder to get those thing's you gave up back ...
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on May 28, 2020, 06:37:09 PM
Your state has a serious turkey population problem and they are clearly trying to adjust their approach to address the issue.
I wish more states were like AR, swiftly passing and implementing changes aimed at benefiting the wild turkey instead of the hunter!
Agree with this sentiment. If your state has a problem, try to fix it before the turkey population gets run completely into the ground. If the turkey population in AR is as bad as everybody keeps saying it is, the state probably should have gone to much more restrictive seasons and harvest long ago.
At some point, consideration for the well-being of the resource must take precedence over long seasons and bag limits. I suggest focusing your attention more towards recovery of the turkey population first and once it recovers its health and numbers, then start looking at going back to liberal seasons and limits.
I'll preach this one more time: Being a hunter means being a conservationist as well as being good at killing stuff.
Quote from: GobbleNut on May 28, 2020, 07:28:17 PM
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on May 28, 2020, 06:37:09 PM
Your state has a serious turkey population problem and they are clearly trying to adjust their approach to address the issue.
I wish more states were like AR, swiftly passing and implementing changes aimed at benefiting the wild turkey instead of the hunter!
Agree with this sentiment. If your state has a problem, try to fix it before the turkey population gets run completely into the ground. If the turkey population in AR is as bad as everybody keeps saying it is, the state probably should have gone to much more restrictive seasons and harvest long ago.
At some point, consideration for the well-being of the resource must take precedence over long seasons and bag limits. I suggest focusing your attention more towards recovery of the turkey population first and once it recovers its health and numbers, then start looking at going back to liberal seasons and limits.
I'll preach this one more time: Being a hunter means being a conservationist as well as being good at killing stuff.
I should have been clearer regarding my opinion, but I am 100% for altering seasons, bag limits, or anything else
IF there is data to back it up...problem is, that they've messed with the season so much (sometimes yearly) that it's impossible to know if the changes worked or not.
I honestly think a mid April season start for AR is pretty solid. Hens should have time to get on the nest, toms are starting to get lonely, afternoon hunting usually gets good, and the heat/bugs/snakes keep some hunters outta the public ground.
Also, we have had a super restrictive season for the past decade or so. If my memory serves me correct, we were down to a 10 day season at one point. Which brings me to my next point; we haven't seen any great results from these restrictions. Quite the opposite, the harvest results (which is basically all you have to judge a population) is been decreasing steadily since the mid 2000s.
Quote from: fallhnt on May 28, 2020, 06:56:14 PM
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 28, 2020, 05:30:03 PM
Whats wrong with youth having a one bird limit? I think youth season should be done away with personally. You want to talk about outlaws , Woods are full of dads toting 4 year olds and killing birds themselves. The kids are covering alot of illegal activity. Not all but several. The rest I agree with you.
Why do away with youth? Do away with gun hunting.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Why not?? My opinion is my opinion. It breeds greed and plenty of adults use it. When I came up season opened the same for everyone. Still killed my birds and deer.
Have to agree with you. I never had a huge season either. And I'm sure there are a lot of youth tags that are being filled while the kid is still at home in bed.
Missouri has only one turkey for the first week also. So I don't know what the problem is there.
As far as closing at 1 PM there was a lot of times that we had tornado type weather in the first half of the day and then beautiful the rest of the day. So we didn't get to hunt when it was nice. The reason they closed at 1 o'clock was to keep hunters from scaring hens off the nest. But it doesn't stop mushroom hunters from stopping around looking for mushrooms.
But at the rate that Arkansas does change their laws you may need an attorney to interpret them for you before season starts to make sure you're on the right side of the law
Quote from: SinGin on May 28, 2020, 09:55:40 PM
Have to agree with you. I never had a huge season either. And I'm sure there are a lot of youth tags that are being filled while the kid is still at home in bed.
Missouri has only one turkey for the first week also. So I don't know what the problem is there.
As far as closing at 1 PM there was a lot of times that we had tornado type weather in the first half of the day and then beautiful the rest of the day. So we didn't get to hunt when it was nice. The reason they closed at 1 o'clock was to keep hunters from scaring hens off the nest. But it doesn't stop mushroom hunters from stopping around looking for mushrooms.
But at the rate that Arkansas does change their laws you may need an attorney to interpret them for you before season starts to make sure you're on the right side of the law
While I did state my opinion about people breaking the law, I do understand that laws cannot take into account how many people will break them. I love the youth hunt in AR that give kids an opportunity at unmolested turkeys. I was able to call in a bird for my 14 year old this season on an extremely heavy hunted area near my home...absolutely no way I'd be caught dead in this particular place during the regular season, especially with my son.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 28, 2020, 08:55:04 PM
Quote from: fallhnt on May 28, 2020, 06:56:14 PM
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on May 28, 2020, 05:30:03 PM
Whats wrong with youth having a one bird limit? I think youth season should be done away with personally. You want to talk about outlaws , Woods are full of dads toting 4 year olds and killing birds themselves. The kids are covering alot of illegal activity. Not all but several. The rest I agree with you.
Why do away with youth? Do away with gun hunting.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Why not?? My opinion is my opinion. It breeds greed and plenty of adults use it. When I came up season opened the same for everyone. Still killed my birds and deer.
I also grew up without a youth turkey season, but I honestly couldn't care less about the guys who abuse the season...I only care about the kids who get the extra opportunity. Also, I honestly think the good outweighed the bad during the youth hunt.
I certainly can sympathize with such reductions.
But having children myself, I do am not nearly as concerned with the youth hunting... I have always felt that one bird is plenty for a turkey youth season... Are they not allowed to hunt with mom & dad during the general season?
We have a youth hunting season for ducks as well, and very often it is an unrealistic account of duck hunting. While I think it is important to provide some degree of success for youths, I also feel that they should learn that sometimes things are earned... Through work and determination.
I would wonder, if things are as bad as being portrayed, why not simply restrict hunters to 1 bird per season period until the populations show signs of improving? Maybe a few special draw hunts to increase revenue (which is hopefully put back into programs to increase bird populations)....
My impression of hunting pressure, is that on good bird production years, hunting pressure has little to no effect on turkey populations... But on low production years, with the combination of taking birds, and interrupting the breeding cycle, that hunting can indeed take more of a toll.
I have also noted that in areas that have little or no hunting pressure, that weather and habitat conditions drive the turkey populations. I have lamented the reduction (or cessation) of CRP and similar programs, or programs in which farmers are given some money to leave corners and fence rows fallow for wildlife habitat. I wonder what would happen if hunters took 10% of the money they spend per season on hunting (gas, shells, decoys, calls, etc.) and donated that towards habitat management... How much of a difference would it make???
I'm from Arkansas also. I understand the concept of allowing an adequate breeding period prior to removing gobblers from the population, thus the later season opener. This is a problem biologists point to. I hope it helps, but I'm not sold on the fact that this is our problem. I believe we could shut season down entirely and other than a couple of great harvests in a row once reopened, nothing much long term would be gained. My belief is the problem is not in the breeding, but rather the nest and hatching success of that equation. And the biggest culprit in that is extreme wet weather during the nesting and brooding periods. Consider that this weather pattern has become the norm over the last 15+ years. In the years leading up to our peak harvest (2003), we had several consecutive solid hatches (2000, 2001, 2002), which just built on some good hatches in the mid to late 90s. Once the weather patterns changed, a decline in annual hatch success compounded to a slowly dwindling population. 2012 has been our lone dry year, and the hatch was very good.... 2.80 poults per hen as compared to years of 1.8, 1.03, 1.40, etc. From just one year we saw a bump in the population and an increase in harvest #s for 2014 and 2015, which also opened on April 19th (only 16 days). But, the following years have been wet again and a decrease once again with the hatches, to bottom out at a few terrible years: 2017 (.86), 2018 (.95), and 2019 (1.13). I just don't think season structure is going to be the magic component on a turnaround, but it is something that can be controlled, unlike the weather. In my opinion as the weather was the major culprit of the decline, the effects of predators (especially nest predators) and habitat loss become even more damaging. The turkeys simply can't get a solid foundation started to reverse this. If we could string just a couple solid hatches in a row together, we would start to see a major step in the right direction.
Think about this too. Jakes were legal to kill and made up nearly 20%-25% of the annual harvest in the early 2000s. I think one year was even around 30%. In 2009, jakes were prohibited (except for 1 limit with youth hunters). So, at our peak harvest in 2003 of close to 20,000 total, a decent portion of those were jakes. Fast forward to 2014 with a harvest of a little over 12,000 (not many jakes), and that sold hatch of 2012 stands out. It can bounce back.
With all that said, Poult per Hen counts are not an exact science and I believe with an increase of clear cuts, pine thickets, and more gated roads, it's more difficult to observe and tally a true measure of hatch success than it might have been 20 years ago. There are more turkeys in certain areas than many believe, but based on gobbling activity during season (many do not scout... at all) it does not appear that way. But, it seems these higher population areas are very spotty, which is to be expected.
Weather plays a role in gobbling, but typically with our seasons opening closer to the 10th, we have decent gobbling the first few days, then we hit a lull (mainly hens, some hunting pressure) with an upswing in gobbling later in the season. Late season can offer some great hunting and often more older turkeys are killed then. So, if we have somewhat decent weather the quality of hunting can be good. We just need more turkeys.
Pray for dry weather and kill as many predators as possible. Otherwise, we probably won't see much of an improvement based on season structure alone. Just my opinion. I've hunted several states and love what each has to offer, but no place I'd rather hunt turkeys than in Arkansas.
I say kudos for at least the effort . Louisiana needs to adopt " some " of these things also . Any help would be better then what currently happened.
Let's face it, there is wildlife management through wildlife science,...and there is wildlife management through political science. Unfortunately, what we have in some states is not enough of the former and way too much of the latter.
Although wild turkey management is not an exact science, there is damn sure enough information available for wildlife managers to make informed decisions about how they manage the resource. Taking a "guess and by gosh" approach by changing regulations every other year just means either 1) somebody ain't doing their job, or 2) there is way too much politics involved and it is getting in the way of scientific management.
Simply put, wild turkey populations are sustainable only when recruitment into the population (ie...successful and stable hatches and poult survival) is at a very minimum equal to the mortality in the adult population. I believe it has been clearly recognized in some places that this is not taking place.
It also appears that in some of those places, wildlife managers are just "sitting on their hands" hoping that there are enough adults in the population and that a good hatch or two will occur. With the changing macro-climatic conditions, and also localized changes in environment/habitat conditions, there needs to be a more proactive approach taken,...and that approach goes far beyond continually adjusting hunting seasons.
I have said this before, and I will repeat it. There are solutions to this problem. There just has to be a will to follow through with them.
...Enough for now....
If you go to the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission meeting this vote on the changes was approved from proposals that were presented to the public through an online survey in March and were formally proposed to the commission during its April 23 meeting. This was all part of 100 notable regulations and proposals. So from looking at these proposals , it was something that most hunters wanted to see happen from responses it received from the survey. They also reduce bag limits for one wild turkey on each wildlife management area. I can see this reduction in overall turkeys harvest as a way to increase overall survival of turkeys throughout Arkansas. I don't necessarily see this as a bad deal. One your still getting to hunt turkeys. It's all a matter of opinions.
Quote from: GobbleNut on May 28, 2020, 07:28:17 PM
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on May 28, 2020, 06:37:09 PM
Your state has a serious turkey population problem and they are clearly trying to adjust their approach to address the issue.
I wish more states were like AR, swiftly passing and implementing changes aimed at benefiting the wild turkey instead of the hunter!
Agree with this sentiment. If your state has a problem, try to fix it before the turkey population gets run completely into the ground. If the turkey population in AR is as bad as everybody keeps saying it is, the state probably should have gone to much more restrictive seasons and harvest long ago.
At some point, consideration for the well-being of the resource must take precedence over long seasons and bag limits. I suggest focusing your attention more towards recovery of the turkey population first and once it recovers its health and numbers, then start looking at going back to liberal seasons and limits.
I'll preach this one more time: Being a hunter means being a conservationist as well as being good at killing stuff.
" Being a hunter means being a conservationist as well as being good at killing stuff." I`m afraid that in far too many instances that`s not a conscious sentiment or belief.
Quote from: Greg Massey on May 29, 2020, 10:56:57 AM
If you go to the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission meeting this vote on the changes was approved from proposals that were presented to the public through an online survey in March and were formally proposed to the commission during its April 23 meeting. This was all part of 100 notable regulations and proposals. So from looking at these proposals , it was something that most hunters wanted to see happen from responses it received from the survey. They also reduce bag limits for one wild turkey on each wildlife management area. I can see this reduction in overall turkeys harvest as a way to increase overall survival of turkeys throughout Arkansas. I don't necessarily see this as a bad deal. One your still getting to hunt turkeys. It's all a matter of opinions.
I think this is going to end up being more "spread the wealth" than a reduction in harvest. The number of people that turkey hunt in Arkansas is astronomical. I would venture to guess that we have more turkeys hunters per turkey than any other state. If you have two gobbling turkeys on a WMA and someone kills one, whether that person is allowed to come back or not, the other turkey will still get killed. With all the information available now, you have a lot more decent hunters than clueless hunters. People don't have to spend time in the woods to gain a majority of the knowledge needed to kill a turkey, just spend a couple hours on YouTube and you know more than what someone would've learned in 5 years by just hunting 20 years ago.
Quote from: Fdept56 on May 29, 2020, 12:53:41 PM
With all the information available now, you have a lot more decent hunters than clueless hunters. People don't have to spend time in the woods to gain a majority of the knowledge needed to kill a turkey, just spend a couple hours on YouTube and you know more than what someone would've learned in 5 years by just hunting 20 years ago.
Totally agree. Not only that, but the same applies to the turkey calling instruments available today as compared to a few decades ago. With the calls that are available for today's turkey hunter, anybody can learn to call turkeys with just a modicum of practice.
I do think, however, that the "woodsmanship" part of the equation is a bit more difficult to tackle. Still, as you state, watching those YouTube videos and paying a little bit of attention goes a long ways to cutting down the learning curve even in that.
Quote from: Fdept56 on May 29, 2020, 12:53:41 PM
Quote from: Greg Massey on May 29, 2020, 10:56:57 AM
If you go to the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission meeting this vote on the changes was approved from proposals that were presented to the public through an online survey in March and were formally proposed to the commission during its April 23 meeting. This was all part of 100 notable regulations and proposals. So from looking at these proposals , it was something that most hunters wanted to see happen from responses it received from the survey. They also reduce bag limits for one wild turkey on each wildlife management area. I can see this reduction in overall turkeys harvest as a way to increase overall survival of turkeys throughout Arkansas. I don't necessarily see this as a bad deal. One your still getting to hunt turkeys. It's all a matter of opinions.
I think this is going to end up being more "spread the wealth" than a reduction in harvest. The number of people that turkey hunt in Arkansas is astronomical. I would venture to guess that we have more turkeys hunters per turkey than any other state. If you have two gobbling turkeys on a WMA and someone kills one, whether that person is allowed to come back or not, the other turkey will still get killed. With all the information available now, you have a lot more decent hunters than clueless hunters. People don't have to spend time in the woods to gain a majority of the knowledge needed to kill a turkey, just spend a couple hours on YouTube and you know more than what someone would've learned in 5 years by just hunting 20 years ago.
I agree that it will spread the wealth as much as anything, which is exactly what I've heard biologists say 10+ years ago when 1 turkey limits were being pushed by some concerned hunters. What could be the game changer is the later opener. I believe it could alleviate some hunting pressure, with a big portion of hunters that think, "it's not worth my time" or "I'll just go to Kansas instead". But the guys that consistently kill turkeys will continue to hunt. Your comment on the amount of turkey hunters per turkey is spot on.
Technology has played a huge role in shortening the learning curve. Besides your point about YouTube, also think about GPS and apps like On-X. You can pull up satellite imagery and scout saddles and other terrain aspects, that once required boots on the ground or topo maps (which many don't understand how to read). Or just simply locating overlooked plots of public land. Basically it's a shortcut to learn the lay of the land. Then you add the over sharing of SPECIFIC information on social media and forums like this.
Quote from: GobbleNut on May 29, 2020, 08:23:01 AM
Let's face it, there is wildlife management through wildlife science,...and there is wildlife management through political science. Unfortunately, what we have in some states is not enough of the former and way too much of the latter.
Although wild turkey management is not an exact science, there is damn sure enough information available for wildlife managers to make informed decisions about how they manage the resource. Taking a "guess and by gosh" approach by changing regulations every other year just means either 1) somebody ain't doing their job, or 2) there is way too much politics involved and it is getting in the way of scientific management.
Simply put, wild turkey populations are sustainable only when recruitment into the population (ie...successful and stable hatches and poult survival) is at a very minimum equal to the mortality in the adult population. I believe it has been clearly recognized in some places that this is not taking place.
It also appears that in some of those places, wildlife managers are just "sitting on their hands" hoping that there are enough adults in the population and that a good hatch or two will occur. With the changing macro-climatic conditions, and also localized changes in environment/habitat conditions, there needs to be a more proactive approach taken,...and that approach goes far beyond continually adjusting hunting seasons.
I have said this before, and I will repeat it. There are solutions to this problem. There just has to be a will to follow through with them.
...Enough for now....
One issue we have dealt with in Arkansas during these continual changes is the revolving door of biologists that have led the turkey program over that span. I think we have had at least 4, maybe 5, in the last 15 years. That will lead to inconsistency and constant change.
Quote from: El Pavo Grande on May 29, 2020, 02:04:32 AM
I'm from Arkansas also. I understand the concept of allowing an adequate breeding period prior to removing gobblers from the population, thus the later season opener. This is a problem biologists point to. I hope it helps, but I'm not sold on the fact that this is our problem. I believe we could shut season down entirely and other than a couple of great harvests in a row once reopened, nothing much long term would be gained. My belief is the problem is not in the breeding, but rather the nest and hatching success of that equation. And the biggest culprit in that is extreme wet weather during the nesting and brooding periods. Consider that this weather pattern has become the norm over the last 15+ years. In the years leading up to our peak harvest (2003), we had several consecutive solid hatches (2000, 2001, 2002), which just built on some good hatches in the mid to late 90s. Once the weather patterns changed, a decline in annual hatch success compounded to a slowly dwindling population. 2012 has been our lone dry year, and the hatch was very good.... 2.80 poults per hen as compared to years of 1.8, 1.03, 1.40, etc. From just one year we saw a bump in the population and an increase in harvest #s for 2014 and 2015, which also opened on April 19th (only 16 days). But, the following years have been wet again and a decrease once again with the hatches, to bottom out at a few terrible years: 2017 (.86), 2018 (.95), and 2019 (1.13). I just don't think season structure is going to be the magic component on a turnaround, but it is something that can be controlled, unlike the weather. In my opinion as the weather was the major culprit of the decline, the effects of predators (especially nest predators) and habitat loss become even more damaging. The turkeys simply can't get a solid foundation started to reverse this. If we could string just a couple solid hatches in a row together, we would start to see a major step in the right direction.
Think about this too. Jakes were legal to kill and made up nearly 20%-25% of the annual harvest in the early 2000s. I think one year was even around 30%. In 2009, jakes were prohibited (except for 1 limit with youth hunters). So, at our peak harvest in 2003 of close to 20,000 total, a decent portion of those were jakes. Fast forward to 2014 with a harvest of a little over 12,000 (not many jakes), and that sold hatch of 2012 stands out. It can bounce back.
With all that said, Poult per Hen counts are not an exact science and I believe with an increase of clear cuts, pine thickets, and more gated roads, it's more difficult to observe and tally a true measure of hatch success than it might have been 20 years ago. There are more turkeys in certain areas than many believe, but based on gobbling activity during season (many do not scout... at all) it does not appear that way. But, it seems these higher population areas are very spotty, which is to be expected.
Weather plays a role in gobbling, but typically with our seasons opening closer to the 10th, we have decent gobbling the first few days, then we hit a lull (mainly hens, some hunting pressure) with an upswing in gobbling later in the season. Late season can offer some great hunting and often more older turkeys are killed then. So, if we have somewhat decent weather the quality of hunting can be good. We just need more turkeys.
Pray for dry weather and kill as many predators as possible. Otherwise, we probably won't see much of an improvement based on season structure alone. Just my opinion. I've hunted several states and love what each has to offer, but no place I'd rather hunt turkeys than in Arkansas.
Right on. I agree with you 110%. I'm an Arkansas and a water resources engineer that's works on hydrologic and hydraulic systems every day. Without a doubt starting in the 2000s and really ramping up in 2008, our spring rainfall events have been excessive. I'm actually working on some data right now analyzing rain events vs brood production. I believe it is a huge factor, if not the factor, in our decline.
Quote from: cuttinAR on May 29, 2020, 05:06:18 PM
Quote from: El Pavo Grande on May 29, 2020, 02:04:32 AM
I'm from Arkansas also. I understand the concept of allowing an adequate breeding period prior to removing gobblers from the population, thus the later season opener. This is a problem biologists point to. I hope it helps, but I'm not sold on the fact that this is our problem. I believe we could shut season down entirely and other than a couple of great harvests in a row once reopened, nothing much long term would be gained. My belief is the problem is not in the breeding, but rather the nest and hatching success of that equation. And the biggest culprit in that is extreme wet weather during the nesting and brooding periods. Consider that this weather pattern has become the norm over the last 15+ years. In the years leading up to our peak harvest (2003), we had several consecutive solid hatches (2000, 2001, 2002), which just built on some good hatches in the mid to late 90s. Once the weather patterns changed, a decline in annual hatch success compounded to a slowly dwindling population. 2012 has been our lone dry year, and the hatch was very good.... 2.80 poults per hen as compared to years of 1.8, 1.03, 1.40, etc. From just one year we saw a bump in the population and an increase in harvest #s for 2014 and 2015, which also opened on April 19th (only 16 days). But, the following years have been wet again and a decrease once again with the hatches, to bottom out at a few terrible years: 2017 (.86), 2018 (.95), and 2019 (1.13). I just don't think season structure is going to be the magic component on a turnaround, but it is something that can be controlled, unlike the weather. In my opinion as the weather was the major culprit of the decline, the effects of predators (especially nest predators) and habitat loss become even more damaging. The turkeys simply can't get a solid foundation started to reverse this. If we could string just a couple solid hatches in a row together, we would start to see a major step in the right direction.
Think about this too. Jakes were legal to kill and made up nearly 20%-25% of the annual harvest in the early 2000s. I think one year was even around 30%. In 2009, jakes were prohibited (except for 1 limit with youth hunters). So, at our peak harvest in 2003 of close to 20,000 total, a decent portion of those were jakes. Fast forward to 2014 with a harvest of a little over 12,000 (not many jakes), and that sold hatch of 2012 stands out. It can bounce back.
With all that said, Poult per Hen counts are not an exact science and I believe with an increase of clear cuts, pine thickets, and more gated roads, it's more difficult to observe and tally a true measure of hatch success than it might have been 20 years ago. There are more turkeys in certain areas than many believe, but based on gobbling activity during season (many do not scout... at all) it does not appear that way. But, it seems these higher population areas are very spotty, which is to be expected.
Weather plays a role in gobbling, but typically with our seasons opening closer to the 10th, we have decent gobbling the first few days, then we hit a lull (mainly hens, some hunting pressure) with an upswing in gobbling later in the season. Late season can offer some great hunting and often more older turkeys are killed then. So, if we have somewhat decent weather the quality of hunting can be good. We just need more turkeys.
Pray for dry weather and kill as many predators as possible. Otherwise, we probably won't see much of an improvement based on season structure alone. Just my opinion. I've hunted several states and love what each has to offer, but no place I'd rather hunt turkeys than in Arkansas.
Right on. I agree with you 110%. I'm an Arkansas and a water resources engineer that's works on hydrologic and hydraulic systems every day. Without a doubt starting in the 2000s and really ramping up in 2008, our spring rainfall events have been excessive. I'm actually working on some data right now analyzing rain events vs brood production. I believe it is a huge factor, if not the factor, in our decline.
Man, I hope you post that information on here for us to see. I've been wondering that for a good while myself.
I wish states like MS would have been requiring people to check game before now. It would be very interesting to go back to see if their harvest rate followed ours (they haven't changed their started in a very long time). I'm going to do some research to see what I can come up with on some other states.
A little while back I had tried to put together some historical rain data too from a few areas of the state, but the website I was using I had some issues with. But, it was obvious from a quick look at central Arkansas (Little Rock) 2012 had far less reported inches of rainfall in the nesting / brooding months than any other years before and after. And I agree without looking at data, I remember the trend of wet weather increases began around 2003 or 2004.
I am by far in the minority, but I believe the AGFC gets some unwarranted criticism for the down cycle in the turkey population. They are by no means perfect. I understand they could improve in some areas (predator control, habitat, etc.), but honestly there is a lot they simply can not control. They definitely can't control the weather. But, the masses need a scape goat.
Quote from: El Pavo Grande on May 29, 2020, 10:56:32 PM
A little while back I had tried to put together some historical rain data too from a few areas of the state, but the website I was using I had some issues with. But, it was obvious from a quick look at central Arkansas (Little Rock) 2012 had far less reported inches of rainfall in the nesting / brooding months than any other years before and after. And I agree without looking at data, I remember the trend of wet weather increases began around 2003 or 2004.
These long term trends definitely need to be looked at in correlation to nesting success, not only in Arkansas specifically, but probably more importantly in the states to the north. The problem is not necessarily rainfall totals in Arkansas. It is more likely related to the flood events in the Mississippi River drainage that, from all accounts, seem to be occurring on an annual basis right during the turkey nesting period.
Quote from: El Pavo Grande on May 29, 2020, 10:56:32 PM
I am by far in the minority, but I believe the AGFC gets some unwarranted criticism for the down cycle in the turkey population. They are by no means perfect. I understand they could improve in some areas (predator control, habitat, etc.), but honestly there is a lot they simply can not control. They definitely can't control the weather. But, the masses need a scape goat.
I totally agree that too many folks tend to point the finger at wildlife managers about things that are out of their control. I only criticize them for that when it appears that they are using things like climate and predators as an excuse to throw up their hands and not do anything to try to offset those factors. Yes, those factors are some pretty big hurdles to overcome,...and perhaps it is not possible,...but when there is no apparent attempt being made to even try to find solutions, that is when I tend to criticize.
A basic tenet of wildlife management is, if there is a problem, attempt to identify it and then attempt to do something about it. Too often I think, managers only look at adjusting hunting strategies, seasons, and bag limits rather than taking the much more difficult steps in actually trying to find out what the real problems are and implementing innovative ideas and strategies to overcome those.
Finally, that is obviously not a unique problem in Arkansas. There are a lot of states where the same issues exist,...not only with wild turkeys, but also many other species.
Quote from: El Pavo Grande on May 29, 2020, 10:56:32 PM
A little while back I had tried to put together some historical rain data too from a few areas of the state, but the website I was using I had some issues with. But, it was obvious from a quick look at central Arkansas (Little Rock) 2012 had far less reported inches of rainfall in the nesting / brooding months than any other years before and after. And I agree without looking at data, I remember the trend of wet weather increases began around 2003 or 2004.
I am by far in the minority, but I believe the AGFC gets some unwarranted criticism for the down cycle in the turkey population. They are by no means perfect. I understand they could improve in some areas (predator control, habitat, etc.), but honestly there is a lot they simply can not control. They definitely can't control the weather. But, the masses need a scape goat.
I've got good data back to at least 2005. One of these weekends that's 100 degrees with 90% humidity I'll lock myself in a room and crunch the numbers.
Quote from: El Pavo Grande on May 29, 2020, 10:56:32 PM
A little while back I had tried to put together some historical rain data too from a few areas of the state, but the website I was using I had some issues with. But, it was obvious from a quick look at central Arkansas (Little Rock) 2012 had far less reported inches of rainfall in the nesting / brooding months than any other years before and after. And I agree without looking at data, I remember the trend of wet weather increases began around 2003 or 2004.
I am by far in the minority, but I believe the AGFC gets some unwarranted criticism for the down cycle in the turkey population. They are by no means perfect. I understand they could improve in some areas (predator control, habitat, etc.), but honestly there is a lot they simply can not control. They definitely can't control the weather. But, the masses need a scape goat.
I don't think you are in a minority. I think there is a huge group of people (myself included) who doesn't blame the AGFC for the decline in the turkey population. I point that finger at weather, timber management, hog explosion, and predators.
My biggest gripe with the AGFC is that they refuse to acknowledge any of those main subject...at least with any legislative acknowledgment. Now I'm not much on government intervention, but I honestly don't think controlling hunting season timeframes or bag limits will be the silver bullet either.
My solution; create a law requiring any timber harvest to leave stream management zones to include upland drainages, create incentives for timber companies/private land owners to perform controlled burns (this happened about 10 years ago, but it quickly became nearly impossible to cut through the red tape for incentives), and place bounty coyotes/raccoons/opossums/hogs.
Quote from: Spurs on May 31, 2020, 11:18:30 AM
Quote from: El Pavo Grande on May 29, 2020, 10:56:32 PM
A little while back I had tried to put together some historical rain data too from a few areas of the state, but the website I was using I had some issues with. But, it was obvious from a quick look at central Arkansas (Little Rock) 2012 had far less reported inches of rainfall in the nesting / brooding months than any other years before and after. And I agree without looking at data, I remember the trend of wet weather increases began around 2003 or 2004.
I am by far in the minority, but I believe the AGFC gets some unwarranted criticism for the down cycle in the turkey population. They are by no means perfect. I understand they could improve in some areas (predator control, habitat, etc.), but honestly there is a lot they simply can not control. They definitely can't control the weather. But, the masses need a scape goat.
I don't think you are in a minority. I think there is a huge group of people (myself included) who doesn't blame the AGFC for the decline in the turkey population. I point that finger at weather, timber management, hog explosion, and predators.
My biggest gripe with the AGFC is that they refuse to acknowledge any of those main subject...at least with any legislative acknowledgment. Now I'm not much on government intervention, but I honestly don't think controlling hunting season timeframes or bag limits will be the silver bullet either.
My solution; create a law requiring any timber harvest to leave stream management zones to include upland drainages, create incentives for timber companies/private land owners to perform controlled burns (this happened about 10 years ago, but it quickly became nearly impossible to cut through the red tape for incentives), and place bounty coyotes/raccoons/opossums/hogs.
I definitely agree that timber companies need to be held accountable. It's an absolute shame what Potlatch has done in many areas. They are in the business to make $$, but as you said, there should be some limitations. We definitely need a bounty, but I just don't see it happening. With fur prices down and little encouragement for trap for many non-turkey hunters, it's going to take the effort of concerned turkey hunters more than likely. But, I agree with you.
I think one of the biggest needs on the Ozark NF, Ouachita NF, and some WMAs are more roads with gates or dirt dams. I understand there needs to be a balance with access, but from a disturbance standpoint, there are not many old roads and drive able log roads that are not worn out when season opens. Roads that people have no business driving down. But the National Forest Service is concerned more with timber management than wildlife management, and I doubt the AGFC has any input on NF properties outside of WMAs.
The US Forest Service has too many masters to try and serve. Hunters, hikers, ORVs, timber interests, etc.
The agfc needs to stop listening to the public.They should get good people who know what they are doing working for them,and let them make the decisions . It seems like everybody thinks they are an expert, and they always know the answer to every problem. That is the real problem with the agfc -they should set the seasons,limits,and so fourth,and not give in to public pressure like they have been doing. They are supposed to hire people who know what they are doing in wildlife management, and yet everything is controlled by all these "experts in the public who know everything". All you have to do is look back at all these comments on here and see what I' m talking about. Why even have people in these positions working for you when you don't let them do their jobs ; just let public "experts" do it instead.Oh yes, we have a lot more turkey than most people think we have. they just are not near as vocal as they used to be.
Quote from: gibstar on June 04, 2020, 08:49:43 PM
The agfc needs to stop listening to the public.They should get good people who know what they are doing working for them,and let them make the decisions . It seems like everybody thinks they are an expert, and they always know the answer to every problem. That is the real problem with the agfc -they should set the seasons,limits,and so fourth,and not give in to public pressure like they have been doing. They are supposed to hire people who know what they are doing in wildlife management, and yet everything is controlled by all these "experts in the public who know everything". All you have to do is look back at all these comments on here and see what I' m talking about. Why even have people in these positions working for you when you don't let them do their jobs ; just let public "experts" do it instead.Oh yes, we have a lot more turkey than most people think we have. they just are not near as vocal as they used to be.
I think there is some truth to what you are saying, but being a resource for the public means we should have some input to what happens. It doesn't take an expert to see the problems. Weather, predators, and habitat have been the only major changes since the early 2000s. My biggest issue with the AGFC is the constant changes. How could any solid data be derived when the study corridor is constantly changing?
We do have some birds, but there has been a HUGE shift in the areas they used to be harvest. I can remember a time when Searcy county would be on top of the harvest count by 200. Now, it's close to the middle of the pack. The county I live in the SE was near the lowest harvest count in the early 2000, we were actually top 5 the last 2 seasons.
The vocal aspect is pretty on point. The last 4 birds I killed in AR only gobble maybe 4 times. The last bird I killed gobbled once...at 10:30...150 yards away. I plopped down just over a small rise about 70 yards away from him and heard him drumming almost immediately. 45 minutes later I killed him. That was one of several I heard killed the same way the past few years.
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on May 28, 2020, 06:37:09 PM
Your state has a serious turkey population problem and they are clearly trying to adjust their approach to address the issue.
I wish more states were like AR, swiftly passing and implementing changes aimed at benefiting the wild turkey instead of the hunter!
exactly for the turkey, not the hunter
Quote from: gibstar on June 04, 2020, 08:49:43 PM
The agfc needs to stop listening to the public.They should get good people who know what they are doing working for them,and let them make the decisions . It seems like everybody thinks they are an expert, and they always know the answer to every problem. That is the real problem with the agfc -they should set the seasons,limits,and so fourth,and not give in to public pressure like they have been doing. They are supposed to hire people who know what they are doing in wildlife management, and yet everything is controlled by all these "experts in the public who know everything". All you have to do is look back at all these comments on here and see what I' m talking about. Why even have people in these positions working for you when you don't let them do their jobs ; just let public "experts" do it instead.Oh yes, we have a lot more turkey than most people think we have. they just are not near as vocal as they used to be.
They take public input, but they have not made decisions based on that. If so, they would open the season April 1, as a majority of people have cried for. Public experts are not the problem. Commissioners ultimately make the decisions and they have ignored biologists in many cases.
Changes are always frustrating whether they are for the better or worse. Hard to keep track alot of the times.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk