Turkey hunting forum for turkey hunting tips

https://www.grayssportingjournal.com/a-commentary-on-potential-implications-of-the-covid-19-pandemic-on-wild-turkey-populations/

Synopsis we killed way too many turkeys in several states. Thr paper is by Dr. Chamberlain and a professor from LSU.

Simply a hypothesis at this point.

Quote from: brittman on May 26, 2020, 04:57:38 PM
Simply a hypothesis at this point.

What is a hypothesis is this documented increased in harvest rates may have a detrimental impact on population.

What is fact is, copied directly from the article, "As of today:

• harvest during the first 23 days of the statewide season in Georgia is 26% greater than in 2019, and 43% higher on public lands – despite no appreciable recent increases in production across populations.
• Furthermore, the percentages of hunters that have harvested 2 birds has increased 34%, whereas hunters harvesting 3 birds (state bag limit) has increased 46% from 2019.
• In Mississippi, statewide harvest numbers are currently similar to previous years, but harvest on state WMAs has increased by 60% relative to 2019.
• In North Carolina, 2020 harvest is up 34.8% over the average from the previous 3 years.
• In Tennessee, statewide harvest is currently 50% higher than at this same point in the 2019 season.
• And in Louisiana, youth season harvest increased 47% and 2020 harvest for the 1st week of the turkey season is up 13.6%"

Quote from: paboxcall on May 26, 2020, 05:24:17 PM

What is a hypothesis is this documented increased in harvest rates may have a detrimental impact on population.

What is fact is, copied directly from the article, "As of today:

• harvest during the first 23 days of the statewide season in Georgia is 26% greater than in 2019, and 43% higher on public lands – despite no appreciable recent increases in production across populations.
• Furthermore, the percentages of hunters that have harvested 2 birds has increased 34%, whereas hunters harvesting 3 birds (state bag limit) has increased 46% from 2019.
• In Mississippi, statewide harvest numbers are currently similar to previous years, but harvest on state WMAs has increased by 60% relative to 2019.
• In North Carolina, 2020 harvest is up 34.8% over the average from the previous 3 years.
• In Tennessee, statewide harvest is currently 50% higher than at this same point in the 2019 season.
• And in Louisiana, youth season harvest increased 47% and 2020 harvest for the 1st week of the turkey season is up 13.6%"

Yup.  If there is a silver lining to be had from all of this, it is that perhaps this will force some state wildlife managers to actually rethink things like starting spring seasons too early and treating spring and fall turkey limits like they are dealing with waterfowl. 

I just posted in another thread that TN took 40,000 birds this year.  The historical average the last several years has been more like 28,000.  We cannot sustain that.

Getting rid of decoys, all decoys, would be a good and safe step.

Here in Minnesota fishing licenses are up 45%,,and we already have one of the highest population of fisherman and destination fishing vacation visitors.
Obviously people have more time to fish and are also probably using fish has a food source durring the virus. May see many more deer hunters too this fall.

Interested. I need to look up the overall harvest numbers in the states I hunt and compare them to previous years. My initial impression in my immediate areas was more people were definitely out but I dont think they were very successful. Matter of fact I had more trouble avoiding the redneck Range Rovers(side x sides) than actual hunters. I swear those things have become a status symbol amongst the trailer dwellers. It seemed I could never get away from them. Both pleasure riders and rifle toters.

I think it was a combination of skill and luck, but I managed to tag out this year 3 weeks early. I've seen more people on public land this year than ever before, to be expected with the virus. I talked to a lot of people and most said they were unsuccessful. Some could have been lying, sure. I took my wife out a few times after I tagged out and I saw the same guys up until the last weekend, so I assume they didn't tag out.

Obviously more turkeys were going to be killed this year. I don't believe that we need to change any limits on my state as of yet. Seems like a knee jerk reaction due to sticker shock of higher than normal harvest numbers. Next year, the harvest numbers will be lower if people are working again. I'm just not buying into the "we need to save the turkeys" bandwagon without seeing some hardcore long term data on who, how, and why they are declining.

Quote from: silvestris on May 26, 2020, 05:58:13 PM
Getting rid of decoys, all decoys, would be a good and safe step.

Stopping ALL spring turkey hunting would be better.

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Quote from: fallhnt on May 26, 2020, 06:57:11 PM

Quote from: silvestris on May 26, 2020, 05:58:13 PM
Getting rid of decoys, all decoys, would be a good and safe step.

Stopping ALL spring turkey hunting would be better.

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Quote from: fallhnt on May 26, 2020, 06:57:11 PM

Quote from: silvestris on May 26, 2020, 05:58:13 PM
Getting rid of decoys, all decoys, would be a good and safe step.

Stopping ALL spring turkey hunting would be better.

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Seems like that's what a lot of the ol timers want. Can't take the competition


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We will track Jersey numbers when they come in. Usually 3000 birds are harvested. 10,000 permits sold. 10% success rate. Let's see this year,.....stay tuned......

Quote from: silvestris on May 26, 2020, 05:58:13 PM
Getting rid of decoys, all decoys, would be a good and safe step.

Well if this is the case , lets get rid of all the shotguns and calls ....this would definitely be a good step.. getting rid of one is just as good, getting rid of another in my opinion..

Quote from: fallhnt on May 26, 2020, 06:57:11 PM

Quote from: silvestris on May 26, 2020, 05:58:13 PM
Getting rid of decoys, all decoys, would be a good and safe step.

Stopping ALL spring turkey hunting would be better.

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x2 AMEN and the shotguns and calls...

Quote from: fallhnt on May 26, 2020, 06:57:11 PM

Quote from: silvestris on May 26, 2020, 05:58:13 PM
Getting rid of decoys, all decoys, would be a good and safe step.

Stopping ALL spring turkey hunting would be better.

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Also make it illegal to shoot a hen...bearded or not.

I saw that in 2020 Missouri had the second lowest harvest in 15 years. And it was not because there were no hunters. Been hunting there for 28 years, seen more guys this year than I ever have. And even worse was Pa.

I would not jump to any  conclusions. One thing I learned in my years with ODNR is one or two years is not enough data to base regulations on, unless a known catastrophic event has occurred. It's trends that dictate change. In my area we did not see a big increase in hunting pressure. Where we did was the usual hard hit public areas and a few around private. At the beginning I thought it would bad, but a lot of the vehicles disappeared fast. I think the new people got frustrated fast and quit.

I just got a hunting survey from Kentucky about last year's turkey hunting and one of the questions dealt with fall limits. So states are looking at it. I also got a notice asking me to log my Ohio hunting hours and what I saw and bagged. I assume I'll get that survey after season sometime. I see no impact locally, but populations have definitely dropped off in the area I hunt in Kentucky. This year Kentucky did not allow non residents to buy license. That left some public areas void of hunters for a large part. It'll be interesting to see if more birds are there next spring.

I think there is reason to look at trends, but I'm not ready to say harvest is the cause of decline. One thing to consider is that when you stock into a void habitat, whether a new species or a reintroduced species, the first reaction of animals is to fill the space as fast as possible. This often leads to saturation of animals over and above the normal carrying capacity of the habitat. My observation is that this usually takes around thirty years to level out for turkeys. After that, you will see a population density drop down to what is a sustainable carrying capacity. There will still be fluctuations due to good and bad hatches (called recruitment). Yet the ten year average is a better indicator then one season's results, especially when looking at a partial season. What I think has happened in many areas is the leveling off to carrying capacity has been a bigger drop than hunters had anticipated. If this is the case it's not going to matter a lot what limits are. It's more a biology and habitat problem. That does not mean that hunting isn't a factor, it is, but only one of many factors. So this will not be answered this year or next year, but it definitely needs looked at.

I just looked at the numbers for Ohio's south zone for 2020, season ended 5/17/2020. There is a group of counties in SW Ohio that is all farm ground with woodlots and they were not stocked until about 20 years ago. They are now having kill numbers right up with the counties that were traditional leaders 30 years ago. In about 10 years you'll see those hunters saying, "what happened to our turkeys", I guarantee it.

Regardless of the causes of wild turkey population declines, wherever they are occurring, the question really comes down to what can, and are, we going to do about it? 

Eggshell brings up a fundamental theory in wildlife management,...that new populations of species introduced into suitable habitat, all other factors being favorable, will increase towards carrying capacity and then decline to a more sustainable level.  The question is, can that be replicated?

I believe it is safe to say that, in some areas, turkey numbers may have fallen below sustainable levels.  That is due to something,...and that "something" needs to be addressed.  Unfortunately, there are factors causing these declines that cannot be realistically addressed.  For instance, anybody that thinks we are going to effectively manage predator populations on a significant scale under the constraints that exist in today's society is fooling themselves.   

Therefore, we have to look at addressing the factors that we can realistically address.  To me, the most obvious and fast solution to solving this problem is to re-adopt the same strategy that was used to establish wild turkey populations across this country to start with.  That is, re-stock areas that need supplementation (east Texas is doing this right now with their Eastern WT population).

Folks, there are plenty of places where wild turkeys are a nuisance, are not being hunted, and need to be removed.  The solution is simple. Re-start a nationwide program of taking turkeys where they are abundant and putting them in places where they are not. 

Yes, I know that this is an "artificial" solution,...but it may very likely be the only solution if we turkey hunters want more turkeys.  That is, short of drastically reducing human-caused mortality in the form of reducing hunting opportunity.  I think it is safe to say that most of us here do not want to see that happen, if possible.

Quote from: silvestris on May 26, 2020, 05:58:13 PM
Getting rid of decoys, all decoys, would be a good and safe step.

I'll give up my decoys when you give up your shotgun, bow only will keep hunter numbers down.

Gobblenut, Those transplanted turkeys also react like they have been put in a new void space and will be more prolific for a while. I think it's also just good genetic management. I argued that point with internal biologist for years. when they finally did stock marginal area,  the birds exploded.

On predators, the willy nilly bleeding hearts club sure helped with that ....I'm not saying the name and giving them credit. I am a good example, I used to run a pretty significant trap line and I professionally graded fur auctions. One of my primary target species was raccoons. I used to hope for 7-10 coon per mile of trap line. Heck I can catch ten out by my garage in the next week. I no longer trap anything and our fur business went broke. They eat my peaches, get in my garbage and you name it. They are also egg eating S.O.B s and I bet half of all nest depredations are from coons. Then add coyotes and skunks at larger numbers and it is a hard place for turkeys to raise young. Coons are so thick it's a common thing to find a sick one wondering around with distemper or even rabies. The pretty people should keep their d#m nose in hollywood and not in the wilds of our country. You should kill every coon you encounter, plenty will survive to replenish the species. Here in Ohio, you can trap nuisance coons anytime and the law states they must be killed if trapped.

I will agree, that it's not food or loss of forest that is causing a decline. These birds adapt big time. I also doubt hunting is causing an over kill. Harvest usually keeps game reproducing at a high level. I once new a farmer who decided hunters were killing too many quail and pheasants and he stopped all hunting of these. Within 5 years you could not hardly find a quail or pheasant on his farm. 10 years later they were gone and this was C.R.E.P ground. Just up the road a guy allowed controlled hunting and he has birds to this day, it's good to harvest some. Under today's laws I just have a hard time believing we are over-harvesting turkeys in the big picture. Sure there are probably a few places we are.

Good discussion.
Regarding predator management:  The days of killing predators for the sake of having more game animals for humans are quickly dying.  Whether we like it or not, we hunters currently make up less than 3% of the population.  Anybody that thinks our 3% is going to overwhelm the desires of the other 97% is delusional.  We have to adapt to those changing mores and tailor our expectations accordingly. Which brings me to your quote below...

Quote from: eggshell on May 27, 2020, 10:22:55 AM
Under today's laws I just have a hard time believing we are over-harvesting turkeys in the big picture.

I agree entirely.  Well managed and regulated hunting is not a factor in the declines in turkey numbers where it is happening.  However, the additive impacts of all the mortality factors influencing those declines point to only one conclusion as far as human hunting goes.  That conclusion is that we will either overcome those issues in terms that are acceptable to the general public,...or hunting opportunities will suffer. 

In my opinion, there are ways to turn these population declines around.  It just takes the will (and dollars) to do it.  As the old saying goes,..."where there is a will, there's a way".  Unfortunately, I'm not so sure the will exists in places where it needs to be.  The first step begins with changing that attitude in the right places. (here's a hint, those in charge of that four-letter turkey hunting organization that used to have their priorities straight but seem to have lost their way) :)

Quote from: brittman on May 26, 2020, 04:57:38 PM
Simply a hypothesis at this point.

This.

Quote from: eggshell on May 27, 2020, 07:17:38 AM
I would not jump to any  conclusions. One thing I learned in my years with ODNR is one or two years is not enough data to base regulations on, unless a known catastrophic event has occurred.

And this.



I'm amazed at the number of new turkey biologists those few podcasts and article have created.


Yeah, carryover is going to suck this year. The truth is, some parts of public land in the southeast are accustomed to horrible carryover. These areas rely heavily on the hatch from 2 years prior for their legal gobblers. And guess what, still turkey! Enough turkey that non-residents don't hesitate to come hunt mid-March.

One of the things I enjoy about traveling to states outside MS is the opportunity to take longer spurred birds on public lands.

I see more and more complaints about today's biologist and agency administrators today. This sounds like I'm bragging, but you know the old saying, "it ain't bragging if you can back it up, it's just fact". In the last 10-15 years the wildlife field has lost a lot of a great generation of managers/biologist and workers. It started in the 60s as wildlife/ fisheries management became more of a science. Then it became more popular in the 70s. In the early 80s a series of legislative actions happened that pumped mega bucks into fish and game. Organizations like the NWTF also brought a new vigor. Search out the Dingle/Johnson act and the Pittman/Robertson acts, along with the wallop/Brough amendment. With more money came the hiring of more people and higher qualified people. The generation from the 70s to 2000 of managers changed the face of fish and game management in this country. I don't believe that any time period saw as much change as this time. Environmental laws were also making an impact. Government agencies were rift with low paying positions that were packed with political appointments and social rif raf. When the money came in agencies quickly upgraded the pay and qualifications. The result was an influx of young energized and smart biologist /managers and administrators. They made a big difference and we benefited. managers could not only get better people they could buy equipment.

Before we shout with joy, let's come down to earth, as we all know government can screw up free cake and ice cream. This generation has now cycled out and retired and a new breed is taking over. They come from a generation that never earned their stripes and frankly manage on whims. They are the preppy millennials and they want to reinvent the wheel. THey want to use their fancy computer models and manage in social circles. Then add that sates and Feds are trying to steal the sportsman's money and Houston we have a problem. Add to that dwindling license sales and less people hunting and fishing and the revenues are drying up.

I recently had a conversation with the guy who took my old job ( I trained him for 15 years as heir apparent) and he told me about some millennial who had hired in in recent years and self proclaimed himself an expert in Muskellunge ( a species I had built a strong reputation on) and was reinventing the whole management approach. He told me, they were ignoring all the 30 years of research I had done and was doing it all over again. The new guy of course wrote a paper on his work. My replacement told me they wanted to tag 2500 muskies with an injected tag into fingerlings. He told them we had already determined that would not work and they told him just provide the fish, he didn't know what he was talking about....they had graduate degrees! My friend told them call my old boss. Well they done what they wanted and all 2500 fish died in the tanks.....idiots! That is part of what we are dealing with....the old school guys had a little sense. There are still good biologist, but there's more and more of these idiots too. It's sad to see them dismantle something you worked a whole career on

Quote from: Greg Massey on May 26, 2020, 07:38:26 PM

Quote from: silvestris on May 26, 2020, 05:58:13 PM
Getting rid of decoys, all decoys, would be a good and safe step.

Well if this is the case , lets get rid of all the shotguns and calls ....this would definitely be a good step.. getting rid of one is just as good, getting rid of another in my opinion..

I would still hunt them if there was only a rock throwing season. I'd go all Ernest T Bass on them...

Quote from: Fullfan on May 27, 2020, 07:07:54 AM
I saw that in 2020 Missouri had the second lowest harvest in 15 years. And it was not because there were no hunters. Been hunting there for 28 years, seen more guys this year than I ever have. And even worse was Pa.

I seen MO was up from last year but I don't know what the forecast was going into this spring.

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WI was up 10% YOY from 2019, but 2019 was a down year.   WI kill this year was on par for an average / slightly above average season.   Turkey numbers seemed higher - so the increased total kill does not surprise me.

Quote from: eggshell on May 27, 2020, 12:33:51 PM
...a new breed (of wildlife managers) is taking over.  ...Add to that dwindling license sales and less people hunting and fishing and the revenues are drying up.

All true,...but not unexpected as the hunting tradition slowly falls by the wayside.  More and more young folks graduating with wildlife degrees have never been hunters,...and have no interest in it.  Their interest lies in non-consumptive uses of wildlife and that is where their focus is.  Some are actually either passively against hunting or are out-and-out self-professed anti-hunters.  Fortunately, as of now, the majority of our younger generation wildlife managers are kids that were brought up with a hunting background.  If and when that scale tips, hunting in this country is in trouble.

Revenue sources are following the same path, and as long as state wildlife budgets are predominately dependent upon (declining) license sales, things will get no better.  The answer lies at least in part in earmarked state tax revenues (which some states already have), but that in itself is a double-edged sword. That has the very real potential for sportsmen to lose their influence as to how wildlife dollars are spent. 

All in all, we are living in a time where it is a "sticky wicket" for hunters, for sure.   

I live in south Mississippi, been hunting turkeys for about 40 years there is not one certain problem you can put your finger on and say that is a cause of the decline I know for a fact that we've had disease in our turkey populations hunting pressure has contributed but predation from other animals is high, I don't think you will ever see populations we had in the 80s. There was a lot of people hunting this year due to the virus I believe that's why the stats from the states or so high and please realize a lot of people don't report their kills. In my area of the state one game warden have to Patrol three or four counties our Game and Fish is not interested enough in Wild Turkey population they are more concern with a person having a loaded gun in his vehicle and other matters until this changes things are going to keep going like they are

Maybe they should drop the tag limits down an no more all day hunting. Nothing wrong with hunting til 1:00 like here in Missouri. There are some states where they can kill I think 4 don't quote me on this.


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Quote from: sbbow on May 27, 2020, 04:19:37 PM
Maybe they should drop the tag limits down an no more all day hunting. Nothing wrong with hunting til 1:00 like here in Missouri. There are some states where they can kill I think 4 don't quote me on this.


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Bag limit is 5 in Alabama, Steve. Which is crazy lol

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Quote from: BigSlam51 on May 27, 2020, 04:50:30 PM

Quote from: sbbow on May 27, 2020, 04:19:37 PM
Maybe they should drop the tag limits down an no more all day hunting. Nothing wrong with hunting til 1:00 like here in Missouri. There are some states where they can kill I think 4 don't quote me on this.


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Bag limit is 5 in Alabama, Steve. Which is crazy lol

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The researchers in this paper suggested hunters self regulate. Just because one receives 2, 3, 4, or 5 tags doesn't mean that person needs to punch all of them.

Quote from: paboxcall on May 27, 2020, 06:02:08 PM

Quote from: BigSlam51 on May 27, 2020, 04:50:30 PM

Quote from: sbbow on May 27, 2020, 04:19:37 PM
Maybe they should drop the tag limits down an no more all day hunting. Nothing wrong with hunting til 1:00 like here in Missouri. There are some states where they can kill I think 4 don't quote me on this.


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Bag limit is 5 in Alabama, Steve. Which is crazy lol

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The researchers in this paper suggested hunters self regulate. Just because one receives 2, 3, 4, or 5 tags doesn't mean that person needs to punch all of them.

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Quote from: paboxcall on May 27, 2020, 06:02:08 PM

Quote from: BigSlam51 on May 27, 2020, 04:50:30 PM

Quote from: sbbow on May 27, 2020, 04:19:37 PM
Maybe they should drop the tag limits down an no more all day hunting. Nothing wrong with hunting til 1:00 like here in Missouri. There are some states where they can kill I think 4 don't quote me on this.


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Bag limit is 5 in Alabama, Steve. Which is crazy lol

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The researchers in this paper suggested hunters self regulate. Just because one receives 2, 3, 4, or 5 tags doesn't mean that person needs to punch all of them.

The majority of hunters won't though.

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Most hunters won't even kill one. Even fewer will kill 2. Still fewer, 3. Very small percentages will tag out.

Quote from: sbbow on May 27, 2020, 04:19:37 PM
Maybe they should drop the tag limits down an no more all day hunting. Nothing wrong with hunting til 1:00 like here in Missouri. There are some states where they can kill I think 4 don't quote me on this.


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IL stops at 1:00....it sucks.

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Quote from: Fullfan on May 27, 2020, 07:07:54 AM
I saw that in 2020 Missouri had the second lowest harvest in 15 years. And it was not because there were no hunters. Been hunting there for 28 years, seen more guys this year than I ever have. And even worse was Pa.

Missouri killed around 40,000 this year actually. Down from the 60000 killed in our heyday, but not down from the new normal.

Quote from: budtripp on May 30, 2020, 10:17:51 PM

Quote from: Fullfan on May 27, 2020, 07:07:54 AM
I saw that in 2020 Missouri had the second lowest harvest in 15 years. And it was not because there were no hunters. Been hunting there for 28 years, seen more guys this year than I ever have. And even worse was Pa.

Missouri killed around 40,000 this year actually. Down from the 60000 killed in our heyday, but not down from the new normal.

I'm also willing to bet Missouri had as much hunting pressure as it ever has before with folks off work and non-resident pressure. Especially with Kansas, Nebraska, and Kentucky being closed to non-residents. I know the region of Missouri I hunt was as crowded as its been in the past 13 seasons.

Nothin' like introducing others or uTubers to fill up the woods.  If you love it, you better keep your mouth shut.  Unfortunately it is too late now.

Quote from: deerhunt1988 on May 30, 2020, 10:50:24 PM

Quote from: budtripp on May 30, 2020, 10:17:51 PM

Quote from: Fullfan on May 27, 2020, 07:07:54 AM
I saw that in 2020 Missouri had the second lowest harvest in 15 years. And it was not because there were no hunters. Been hunting there for 28 years, seen more guys this year than I ever have. And even worse was Pa.

Missouri killed around 40,000 this year actually. Down from the 60000 killed in our heyday, but not down from the new normal.

I'm also willing to bet Missouri had as much hunting pressure as it ever has before with folks off work and non-resident pressure. Especially with Kansas, Nebraska, and Kentucky being closed to non-residents. I know the region of Missouri I hunt was as crowded as its been in the past 13 seasons.

Bout the same amount of pressure as I normally see in my neck of the woods at least. But I'm sure some other areas got pounded more than usual. I actually don't know of many people who were off work except schoolteachers and hairdressers. We's all "essential" I guess

May have been more people in the woods but they did not make much difference in Louisiana. 230 more Turkeys killed than 2019 but 100 of those extra were Jakes. Looks like we got some "Jake hunting" experts in La. You always hear the complaints of few Gobbling turkeys and then they go out of their way to kill the Jakes? Going by the Parish breakdown most of the increases were in areas with little or no public land and the public areas remained about the same. Mostly part timers on there pine plantation hog infested deer leases shooting what few turkeys they have. One silver lining with La killing maybe 1500-2000 turkeys statewide every year we don't have a lot of out of state pressure even most of the Arkansas hunters drive around La.

From Maryland DNR:

Maryland hunters reported harvesting 4,303 wild turkeys during the 2020 regular spring and junior hunt turkey seasons, the Maryland Department of Natural Resources announced. This year's harvest surpassed the previous high of 4,175, set in 2017, and was 8% higher than the 2019 harvest of 4,002 turkeys.

If we went to hand catching only there would be very few taken. Oh and it is possible. Caught and released a longbeard strutting in the yard last year. No kid.

I can honestly say that it isn't my fault. 3 of my out of state trips got cancelled, and I only got to hunt for 12 days thanks to Coronapanic. I bagged one gobbler in SC where the non-resident bag limit was already reduced by 1 this season.
The reason for the reduction was solely to get non-residents out of the woods earlier and create better hunting for the resident hunters, who's bag limit was not reduced despite the fact there are hell of a lot more resident hunters. The decision had absolutely nothing to do with turkey management.
So Tennessee, NC, and other states don't have the market cornered when it comes to stupid management decisions. SC is right up there with them.

Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.

Quote from: fallhnt on May 26, 2020, 06:57:11 PM

Quote from: silvestris on May 26, 2020, 05:58:13 PM
Getting rid of decoys, all decoys, would be a good and safe step.

Stopping ALL spring turkey hunting would be better.

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Stopping all spring turkey hunting, this coming from a guy who's username is FALLHNT. No bias or alterior motives there.

Sent from deep in the woods where the critters roam.

I really believe the area I predominately hunted in Arkansas this spring had a lower harvest, mainly because of the increased hunting pressure and activity .  There seemed to be more inexperienced hunters with work and schools shut down.  Non stop hooting, calling, driving down old log roads, etc. 

Quote from: GobbleNut on May 27, 2020, 08:55:04 AM
Regardless of the causes of wild turkey population declines, wherever they are occurring, the question really comes down to what can, and are, we going to do about it? 

Eggshell brings up a fundamental theory in wildlife management,...that new populations of species introduced into suitable habitat, all other factors being favorable, will increase towards carrying capacity and then decline to a more sustainable level.  The question is, can that be replicated?

I believe it is safe to say that, in some areas, turkey numbers may have fallen below sustainable levels.  That is due to something,...and that "something" needs to be addressed.  Unfortunately, there are factors causing these declines that cannot be realistically addressed.  For instance, anybody that thinks we are going to effectively manage predator populations on a significant scale under the constraints that exist in today's society is fooling themselves.   

Therefore, we have to look at addressing the factors that we can realistically address.  To me, the most obvious and fast solution to solving this problem is to re-adopt the same strategy that was used to establish wild turkey populations across this country to start with.  That is, re-stock areas that need supplementation (east Texas is doing this right now with their Eastern WT population).

Folks, there are plenty of places where wild turkeys are a nuisance, are not being hunted, and need to be removed.  The solution is simple. Re-start a nationwide program of taking turkeys where they are abundant and putting them in places where they are not. 

Yes, I know that this is an "artificial" solution,...but it may very likely be the only solution if we turkey hunters want more turkeys.  That is, short of drastically reducing human-caused mortality in the form of reducing hunting opportunity.  I think it is safe to say that most of us here do not want to see that happen, if possible.

YES...  And habitat management...  Will not do much good to dump off a bunch of turkeys in unsustainable habitat situations.

Over the past 10 years, I have seen populations of birds significantly decrease, and then increase...  Springs with decent rain and lots of nesting habitat dramatically increase bird populations...

We are starting to see turkeys enter into agricultural areas in some parts of California, but in the central valley I am still not seeing that happen.  For areas with birds in rural and agricultural areas, CRP type programs would go a long ways towards increasing turkey as well as other desired upland habitat...

Farming has changed a lot, and most farmers are able to utilize every square inch of land...  And when water becomes scarce, clear-cutting ditches becomes more common (eliminating the little habitat there is available to upland species for nesting, including turkeys).

Unfortunately with the stimulus monies being paid out, and ZERO money to spend...  It will be up to hunters, and hunting organizations.

I would think that there would be some benefit in multiple groups (such as Pheasants Forever, Quail Unlimited, and NWTF collaborating to improve habitat.

Hunters in the past have always been the best conservationists, and have always produced the most funding for conservation of wildlife...  Seems maybe that is dropping off in recent years, and if hunting is to continue, it will be up to hunters to move things along...  And pony up.

Quote from: Marc on June 05, 2020, 10:31:25 PM

Quote from: GobbleNut on May 27, 2020, 08:55:04 AM
Regardless of the causes of wild turkey population declines, wherever they are occurring, the question really comes down to what can, and are, we going to do about it? 

Eggshell brings up a fundamental theory in wildlife management,...that new populations of species introduced into suitable habitat, all other factors being favorable, will increase towards carrying capacity and then decline to a more sustainable level.  The question is, can that be replicated?

I believe it is safe to say that, in some areas, turkey numbers may have fallen below sustainable levels.  That is due to something,...and that "something" needs to be addressed.  Unfortunately, there are factors causing these declines that cannot be realistically addressed.  For instance, anybody that thinks we are going to effectively manage predator populations on a significant scale under the constraints that exist in today's society is fooling themselves.   

Therefore, we have to look at addressing the factors that we can realistically address.  To me, the most obvious and fast solution to solving this problem is to re-adopt the same strategy that was used to establish wild turkey populations across this country to start with.  That is, re-stock areas that need supplementation (east Texas is doing this right now with their Eastern WT population).

Folks, there are plenty of places where wild turkeys are a nuisance, are not being hunted, and need to be removed.  The solution is simple. Re-start a nationwide program of taking turkeys where they are abundant and putting them in places where they are not. 

Yes, I know that this is an "artificial" solution,...but it may very likely be the only solution if we turkey hunters want more turkeys.  That is, short of drastically reducing human-caused mortality in the form of reducing hunting opportunity.  I think it is safe to say that most of us here do not want to see that happen, if possible.

YES...  And habitat management...  Will not do much good to dump off a bunch of turkeys in unsustainable habitat situations.

Agreed.  Putting turkeys in habitat that they cannot survive in obviously is not what we want.  However, many of the places that are suffering significant declines are places where the habitat is there, but there are recent changes that have resulted in those populations declines outside of habitat issues.  Simply put, it is an issue of nesting success and poult survival.  The transplant programs from the last half of the twentieth century clearly demonstrated that turkeys can survive in a wide spectrum of habitat types.

What are those issues impacting turkey populations?  Many of us believe they are related to predation (especially nest predators), climate change, and changing ag practices (introduction of diseases and toxins).  Conversely, I doubt many of us believe it is due primarily to habitat loss (although monocultural timber practices are certainly suspect in some areas). 

The concept of adding more adult birds to a population through transplants/translocation is based on the simple principle that the more adult, breeding-capable turkeys you have in a population, the quicker that population can recover from down-cycles when they finally have conditions favorable to nesting success.

In addition, there is also the concept of "hybrid vigor" that comes into play.  Simply adding new genetics into a population can increase survivability of the birds in that population, even without other significant changes in other factors affecting those populations. 

All in all, it seems to me that the concept of trapping and transplanting turkeys,...the very basis for the enormous increases in turkey numbers in this country in the past few decades,....for whatever reason has fallen by the wayside.  I personally believe it is time to revitalize that program specifically in those areas that turkey numbers have plummeted.     

To hear some on here tell it, there are statewide declines and shortages of turkeys. Where would the transplanted turkeys come from in those states?  I wonder how many you would need?  Sounds like it could be expensive if done on any kind of scale. What are the costs and where would the money come from?

Quote from: Spurs Up on June 06, 2020, 11:20:27 AM
To hear some on here tell it, there are statewide declines and shortages of turkeys. Where would the transplanted turkeys come from in those states?  I wonder how many you would need?  Sounds like it could be expensive if done on any kind of scale. What are the costs and where would the money come from?

I agree that the government (especially currently) does not have the funding, nor is this situation a priority (nor should it be currently).

Much of it could come from turkey hunters and private conservation organizations (such as NTWF)...  As could volunteers.  As well as volunteers from organizations such as the Boy Scouts, and other high school community service groups (certainly could be an educational experience for such groups).

While things have changed, it was not in the too distant past that groups such as Ducks Unlimited turned around waterfowl populations.

As far as available populations?  Many rural housing areas have high populations, some of which have become nuisance populations.  State and national parks with high density populations could certainly be spread out to other areas (likely benefiting both the low density population groups, as well as reducing over-populated ares).

Quote from: Spurs Up on June 06, 2020, 11:20:27 AM
To hear some on here tell it, there are statewide declines and shortages of turkeys. Where would the transplanted turkeys come from in those states?  I wonder how many you would need?  Sounds like it could be expensive if done on any kind of scale. What are the costs and where would the money come from?

Well, to start with this would be a great time and place for the NWTF to get their act back on course and mission. As far as cost, it all comes down to priority. Trapping and transplanting of turkeys is mostly a matter of man power. Most states already have the equipment. Bait is not a great cost nor is fuel. Easily material cost could be covered by NWTF or local Sportsmen. Most state agency have a base of staff, they work year round and it wouldn't take any new hiring. It's a matter of committing the time to do it. Of course that would mean scaling back or not doing some other projects. If they use their personnel wisely they can reassign staff during down times and not miss much at all. I worked my whole career in a fish hatchery and winter was a slow time for us, so we helped game management and law enforcement whenever they needed help in the winter. My crew actually kept turkey trap sites baited for the game guys. It cost the Wildlife division nothing in additional cost. Sure it took my guys out of the shop some from doing tank maintenance, but we managed. Someone just has to decide it's a priority. As for available birds, yes there are areas with surplus. I done a lot of trading with other states. We traded fish for all kinds of things. We had an abundance of Walleye and many states wanted them, so we traded for something we wanted. We traded catfish for Steelhead eggs. If you need turkeys find someone who will trade for them.  Even within these states your right there are closed ares that have turkeys in surplus. Believe me it's doable, someone in administration just needs to decide they want to.

Gobblenut, you do know your not suppose to come on the web and actually post useful opinions or make sense, don't ya..... :TooFunny: what nerve. The internet is for wacko theories, personal attacks, radicalization and porn geesh! (SARCASM FONT

Good luck with anything from the NWTF.  Anything.

Quote from: eggshell on June 06, 2020, 03:29:25 PM
Well, to start with this would be a great time and place for the NWTF to get their act back on course and mission.

Quote from: silvestris on June 06, 2020, 11:14:46 PM
Good luck with anything from the NWTF.  Anything.

We have wandered off course a bit with this thread,...but since we have come around to bringing up the NWTF again regarding where that organization stands with a bunch of us...here's some more thoughts:

The NWTF gets a lot of bashing from some of us folks that were probably at one time pretty strong supporters of the organization.  I know I am one of them,...and for good reasons.

Having said that, we are part of the problem with where the NWTF has gone.  Long ago, when we started to see the NWTF veer off course from helping wild turkeys to the current state of "what can we do to raise more money to feed our corporate machine?", we should collectively have spoken up and told the leadership that we did not like the direction NWTF was headed. 

Too many folks now just look at the NWTF as "party central" for turkey hunters.  Gone is the fundamental mission of making sure wild turkey populations are thriving across the country.  At this point, the only way that will change is if turkey hunters band together and tell them to either get back to that mission or "we (and our dollars) are outta here". 

Honestly, probably the best thing that could happen is if a large group of organized turkey hunters banded together to form a new organization that got back to that original mission.  Raise money for, and spend it on wild turkeys without building that money-swallowing corporate infrastructure.  That is what happened with the NWTF,...and now they have no choice but to feed it to keep the status quo. 

Really, things need to start over from "square one",...or at least that's the view from here...

I agree Gobblenut, at least to an extent. I think many have pulled their support, I have. I also was very active in the 70s up to 90s and then it went south. I have watched many organizations over the decades and all of them started with the same core principles of protecting and enhancing wildlife and fish populations. The founders had the heart and drive, but in time they get so big they have to commit to being a full time job. So they set up the structure and build on it and that's all good. Then the people with the core principles start to age out. If they have not maintained a structured system that prioritizes qualifications of personnel following them they get career people, not resource dedicated people. They also have to maintain a mission. It's tough to do. I have assisted some sportsmen's associations in organizing before and It's a tough go. You need people that will go all in and drive the ship. It eventually gets overwhelming and this is where the rub comes. I actually chair a nonprofit right now and have for years. When I am gone I fear where the next person will take it, so I keep an eye out for someone with the same passion as me. If you get exhausted and just hire someone to run the show they look at it as a salary and not a mission. To them the bigger financial profile you build the more they make. This is what happened to the NWTF in my opinion. I once helped a Muskie fishing club get started and it turned into a big state wide club with hundreds of members. One thing that made it work so well, every single dime was returned to the resource or the club members. I actually reared Muskies in the State Hatchery I ran and these people funded a lot of my work. Eventually it overwhelmed the officers and they wanted out, no one with passion stepped up and it fell apart. One way to help is to infiltrate management with the type people you want. As with most things, there are no easy answers