Rem 870 Kicks .655
Winchester 1 7/8 6's ( Grey Box)
*306 hits in a 12in circle @ 30yds
*94 hits in a 12in circle @ 40yds
Hevi 7's 3/2/7's
*337 hits in a 12 in circle @30yds
*233 hits in a 12 in circle @40yds
Big difference in how the pattern covers the 30 to 40yd range.. :o
That is very interesting! I bet it would be terribly ugly at 50 yards.
You are comparing #6 lead to #7 hevi for one and with the given of a tighter pattern of HTL in genetal that should happen.
I did see that when you tried #6 lead to #7 hevi it went from 77 pellets ro 101 or so at the same distance. Plus those HTL pellets are packing more wallop than lead of equal size.
At 30 yards you only had 21 more pellets in HTL #7than lead #6 and a 2 0z load over a 1 7/8 oz. shell. So at 30 you had dead turkey either way and if the 6s had more velocity they could have had more energy than the hTL at that distance.
Thank you,,i am aware of what i tested. :)
I am comparing the difference between lead and HTL.
The point is... the difference from 30 to 40yds...
The 30 yard #'s are good, surprised it drops off that quick. Did you count the most dense 12" pattern, or just around the "bullseye". Curious if it is POI POA issue. I've never shot that load, so don't know much about it. Thanks for the info.
I don't see a claim of apples to apples. A lot of folks that might considering a switch from lead 6's to hevi-7's might find this very useful. Regardless of pellet size, a pellet decrease over a ten yard increment is important.
94/306 = 31% of 12" 30 yd pattern maintained at 40
233/337 = 69% of 12" 30 yd pattern maintained at 40
I see value in those #'s. If those are two loads you are considering, then you should compare them, IMHO.
QuoteThe 30 yard #'s are good, surprised it drops off that quick.
The really quick and ugly drop in numbers and even coverage with Lead pellets, happens between 35 Yards and 40 Yards. 35 can look great.
Quote from: drenalinld on May 16, 2011, 12:03:33 PM
I don't see a claim of apples to apples. A lot of folks that might considering a switch from lead 6's to hevi-7's might find this very useful. Regardless of pellet size, a pellet decrease over a ten yard increment is important.
94/306 = 31% of 12" 30 yd pattern maintained at 40
233/337 = 69% of 12" 30 yd pattern maintained at 40
I see value in those #'s. If those are two loads you are considering, then you should compare them, IMHO.
Exactly.
Quote from: 3" 870 Shell Shucker on May 16, 2011, 12:07:57 PM
QuoteThe 30 yard #'s are good, surprised it drops off that quick.
The really quick and ugly drop in numbers and even coverage with Lead pellets, happens between 35 Yards and 40 Yards. 35 can look great.
I would imagine that distance would depend on alot of variables. Gun, choke, velocity, payload. My lead never dropped off that sharp.
The interesting factor to me was the rapid drop off with the lead pattern. The numbers are not as important as the rate of drop off. I would think sustaining a consistent pattern from 30 to 40 would be important to any turkey hunter. I hear allot of talk about lead guns shooting 40yds on this website so it seems pertinent. Allot of patterning i see for lead on the site is at 20, 30, and some 35 yds. 30yd numbers can fool you with lead. If i were shooting Hevi 6's compared to Lead 6's though the numbers are lower for Hevi 6's than 7's the disparaging rate of drop off for lead is still there in the gun that i tested which is turning awesome numbers at 30yds with lead.
Not questioning what you got at all. Just trying to make sure I understand the comparison. Gonna have to break out the old lead shells and check myself. I know I was getting a consistent 110-120 in 10" at 40, but not sure on my 30 yard patterns. I just don't remember it being that big of a drop.
Quote from: jfair on May 16, 2011, 12:58:41 PM
Not questioning what you got at all. Just trying to make sure I understand the comparison. Gonna have to break out the old lead shells and check myself. I know I was getting a consistent 110-120 in 10" at 40, but not sure on my 30 yard patterns. I just don't remember it being that big of a drop.
Sounds like you might be sustaining a better pattern from 30 to 40 than the combo i was testing with your numbers being that high at 40. Either that... or your pattern is better at 30yds as well. Be interested to see what percentage of your pattern you are retaining from 30 to 40.
My numbers in a 10in circle were 243 @ 30yds and 70's @ 40yds with Win 1 7/8 6's.
Longshanks,
It would make it easier for us compare to all the other data we digest if you use a 10 inch circle instead. Not complaining.
Quote from: deadbuck on May 17, 2011, 01:39:08 PM
Longshanks,
It would make it easier for us compare to all the other data we digest if you use a 10 inch circle instead. Not complaining.
No problem, i just had some turkey targets from Quaker Boy on that round of testing that had a 12 in circle on them. Kinda prefer those on testing lead but normally use the 10in with testing HTL. If you are checking pattern retention it shouldn't effect your deterioration percentage greatly. Sorry for the confusion.
Quote from: Longshanks on May 17, 2011, 01:52:43 PM
Quote from: deadbuck on May 17, 2011, 01:39:08 PM
Longshanks,
It would make it easier for us compare to all the other data we digest if you use a 10 inch circle instead. Not complaining.
No problem, i just had some turkey targets from Quaker Boy on that round of testing that had a 12 in circle on them. Kinda prefer those on testing lead but normally use the 10in with testing HTL. If you are checking pattern retention it shouldn't effect your deterioration percentage greatly. Sorry for the confusion.
Wait...are you using a pre-drawn 12-inch circle?
Quote from: stinkpickle on May 17, 2011, 02:03:44 PM
Quote from: Longshanks on May 17, 2011, 01:52:43 PM
Quote from: deadbuck on May 17, 2011, 01:39:08 PM
Longshanks,
It would make it easier for us compare to all the other data we digest if you use a 10 inch circle instead. Not complaining.
No problem, i just had some turkey targets from Quaker Boy on that round of testing that had a 12 in circle on them. Kinda prefer those on testing lead but normally use the 10in with testing HTL. If you are checking pattern retention it shouldn't effect your deterioration percentage greatly. Sorry for the confusion.
Wait...are you using a pre-drawn 12-inch circle?
Its just a Quaker Boy big paper target with a 12in circle on it. POI/POA is on. The heavy part of the pattern is in the circle. No way to cheat and get higher numbers like i see some folks do.... Going to the outer edges of the pattern to count numbers is not reflective of the pattern density if your POI/POA is on.
but if there is a denser portion of the pattern outside the POA area, then your POA is not your POI.
Quote from: LaBiologist on May 17, 2011, 03:09:25 PM
but if there is a denser portion of the pattern outside the POA area, then your POA is not your POI.
If the center of the target is the center of the pattern and the pattern is evenly dense which is the case here i believe my POI/POA is on...and therefore a non-issue.
When you are aiming at the center of the target and the center of your pattern is there..if the shot is heavier to one side... the Point of impact is off and counting pellets outside of the center and reporting numbers is not reflective of an effective pattern. Ive seen folks try to add 70-80 shot by counting the outer edge of their pattern.
yes, that is correct. But youwere saying that others go to the outside of their patterns and get higher numbers. in that case the POA is not the POI. This would indicate that the densest part of the pattern was not centered in the POA area.
Quote from: Longshanks on May 16, 2011, 10:50:13 AM
Rem 870 Kicks .655
Winchester 1 7/8 6's ( Grey Box)
*306 hits in a 12in circle @ 30yds
*94 hits in a 12in circle @ 40yds
Hevi 7's 3/2/7's
*337 hits in a 12 in circle @30yds
*233 hits in a 12 in circle @40yds
Big difference in how the pattern covers the 30 to 40yd range.. :o
This should answer the question without much explanation IMO.
Quote from: LaBiologist on May 17, 2011, 03:14:30 PM
yes, that is correct. But youwere saying that others go to the outside of their patterns and get higher numbers. in that case the POA is not the POI. This would indicate that the densest part of the pattern was not centered in the POA area.
The first issue with POA/POI is: If you draw a circle around the pattern is the center of the pattern where you aimed?
The second issue with POA/POI is: Is the shot evenly distributed or heavier to one side of the pattern?
The first issue is easier fixed than the second allot of times.
We are on the same page.. :)
Quote from: Longshanks on May 16, 2011, 11:08:34 AM
Thank you,,i am aware of what i tested. :)
:toothy12:
pretty cool post .... it is pretty interesting how much of a drop there is between 30 and 40 yards....thanks longshanks
Quote from: 2much2loud on May 19, 2011, 04:13:53 PM
pretty cool post .... it is pretty interesting how much of a drop there is between 30 and 40 yards....thanks longshanks
I thought that was an interesting way to determine pattern depreciation from 30yd to 40yd which is where lead seems to fall off. Gonna test some 3/2/6's which allot of folks say will bring better numbers at both distances and see what happens. Has to get better than what i have: 70's at 40 in a 10" circle. Keep you posted.
Quote from: Longshanks on May 19, 2011, 06:10:57 PM
Quote from: 2much2loud on May 19, 2011, 04:13:53 PM
pretty cool post .... it is pretty interesting how much of a drop there is between 30 and 40 yards....thanks longshanks
I thought that was an interesting way to determine pattern depreciation from 30yd to 40yd which is where lead seems to fall off. Gonna test some 3/2/6's which allot of folks say will bring better numbers at both distances and see what happens. Has to get better than what i have: 70's at 40 in a 10" circle. Keep you posted.
I see what your trying to show but it would be even better to find 3/2/6s hevi and lead shells and show the difference than
Quote from: Gobble! on May 19, 2011, 08:52:20 PM
Quote from: Longshanks on May 19, 2011, 06:10:57 PM
Quote from: 2much2loud on May 19, 2011, 04:13:53 PM
pretty cool post .... it is pretty interesting how much of a drop there is between 30 and 40 yards....thanks longshanks
I thought that was an interesting way to determine pattern depreciation from 30yd to 40yd which is where lead seems to fall off. Gonna test some 3/2/6's which allot of folks say will bring better numbers at both distances and see what happens. Has to get better than what i have: 70's at 40 in a 10" circle. Keep you posted.
I see what your trying to show but it would be even better to find 3/2/6s hevi and lead shells and show the difference than
I was really just trying to show why HTL is such a better choice than lead because of the Huge drop off between 30-40 that lead takes. Hevi 7's was my choice to post because if you notice the difference in the numbers at 30yds in a 12in circle.. They arent that much different. (30 pellets) Hevi 7's are also much more impressive numbers out of my Rem 870.
I was pretty shocked when i started factoring the percentage of pattern lost from 30-40yds. Its got me patterning my lead slinger trying to find a shell that will retain enough of the pattern for me to feel comfortable at 35. Im hoping to get 100+ in a 10in circle @ 40 but it isnt looking good so far.