I was talking with a buddy today and we were talking turkeys of course. During the conversation , gobbling came up. I remember in the late 70's and 80's turkeys gobbling well before daylight. I am talking 430 and gobbling great on the limb. Fast forward to present day , the birds where I hunt down in the South start gobbling when it starts breaking light. It is hard to slip in tight on them. I wonder if they have adapted to avoid predators like us for example. Its been several years since I have heard birds gobbling in pitch black. I loved that you could in in tight under the cover of darkness. Has anyone else noticed this trend?
I have been hunting them since late 80's and only the last year or two have I ever had some gobbling in the pitch dark, I had to hear him more than a few times before I believed it! I was still scared to move close because I had never experienced it.
Your spot on. I don't have any data to back my thoughts, just years of observations. I have two theory's. The increase in coyotes is one. The other is the increase in yelping hens (hunters). If I was a gobbler in the 60's and 70's where I hunt, I'd be an early riser and have my feet on the ground at the crack of dawn. If I was a Gobbler where I hunt now, I wouldn't say a word or come out of the tree until at least 10:30.
Here in Louisiana it is common for Gobblers to wait until full daylight before gobbling. I believe it is hunting pressure. I think the turkeys have adapted to the pressure and years of people trying to sneak up on them when on the roost. I'm not sure if coyotes are a factor. I've hunted places up north that had plenty of coyotes and the turkeys gobbled in the dark.
I think it has to do with hunting pressure, the birds have had from jake to adult gobbler. I think weather and moon phase player part also , those nice and bright moons i think help get them fired up way before daylight. It's nature at it's best and of course hens play a part with how active they are also. Predators are problems also.
Never heard them in the dark unless the moon was bright. Not a lot of pressure on my place. I just think it's a daylight thing.
Interesting topic. Could be related to predator pressure, hard to say. Maybe we have fewer gobblers now than we did then. I know this for a fact- I used to hear a much higher number of gobbling turkeys on our farms 12-14 years ago than I do now. Have places that used to be slam full of turkeys that are ghost towns now. I blame a lot of that on the infestation of wild hogs in recent years.
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Been hunting since the 80s and I have definitely noticed the later gobbling times. I just chalk it up to hunting pressure. I figure it's the gobblers way of adapting. I suppose it could be that the birds that gobbled early stood a better chance of being killed or at the least disturbed. Perhaps the birds that possessed that trait have been killed out over the years.
I certainly miss those predawn gobblers.
Quote from: Rzrbac on March 05, 2020, 10:08:48 PM
Been hunting since the 80s and I have definitely noticed the later gobbling times. I just chalk it up to hunting pressure. I figure it's the gobblers way of adapting. I suppose it could be that the birds that gobbled early stood a better chance of being killed or at the least disturbed. Perhaps the birds that possessed that trait have been killed out over the years.
I certainly miss those predawn gobblers.
This is my same thought.
Quote from: guesswho on March 05, 2020, 09:20:03 PM
Your spot on. I don't have any data to back my thoughts, just years of observations. I have two theory's. The increase in coyotes is one. The other is the increase in yelping hens (hunters). If I was a gobbler in the 60's and 70's where I hunt, I'd be an early riser and have my feet on the ground at the crack of dawn. If I was a Gobbler where I hunt now, I wouldn't say a word or come out of the tree until at least 10:30.
Yeah. This kind of reinforces what I believe.
At my place they start hammering a little before daylight most of the time but on a very cloudy or rainy morning they may not make a peep. Tried to post a video and couldn't get it to load up
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When I first started turkey hunting, in the late 80s, if I was careful I could nearly slip under the roost tree. Now they seldom gobble before day light.
I like the ones that gobble in the pitch black maybe a half hour or twenty minutes before the rest ! They tend to be fairly receptive to the call !
Pheasants used to hold, and roosters used to cackle upon flushing... Today the vast majority of roosters will run you to the rubber on your tennis shoes, and a cackling bird is a rare pleasure... The birds that held and/or cackled got shot, and we have literally bred that out of them...
Turkeys that gobble early get pin-pointed by hunters, and get shot... Birds that do not have a better chance of surviving and passing on their genes... It only makes sense that quiet birds would live more to pass on their genes...
Get rid of hunting, and birds that gobble early have a better chance of attracting hens, and we would see it turn around.
I certainly don't have as many years under belt, so I really have nothing to go off of in comparison to that. Birds I have hunted here in PA have always gobbling around first light, or day break. There has only been one or two times I recall hearing a bird gobble in the pitch dark of the early morning.
Quote from: Marc on March 06, 2020, 12:49:01 AM
Pheasants used to hold, and roosters used to cackle upon flushing... Today the vast majority of roosters will run you to the rubber on your tennis shoes, and a cackling bird is a rare pleasure... The birds that held and/or cackled got shot, and we have literally bred that out of them...
Turkeys that gobble early get pin-pointed by hunters, and get shot... Birds that do not have a better chance of surviving and passing on their genes... It only makes sense that quiet birds would live more to pass on their genes...
Get rid of hunting, and birds that gobble early have a better chance of attracting hens, and we would see it turn around.
I would vote the same as you, but hen to gobbler ratio makes a difference too. Hunting pressure may be in the mix too. I hunt 1,000 acres of controlled private land That I control all turkey hunting on and I make sure it gets very light pressure and I still see it there, but the hen to gobbler ratio is off the charts.
Yes I see it where I hunt in Pa, but in general there is much less gobbling at anytime, because we also have alot less turkeys now compared to 30-40 years ago. For us I think that there are several things that contribute to it....less birds, predators, adaptation to hunting pressure, some change in the weather and later opening of the season.
The fix to this is roosting the night before. If you know where he is the night before it doesn't matter what time he hobbled in the morning. You'll be sitting on him tight regardless
I believe turkey densities,...that is the number of turkeys, both gobblers and hens,...plays a significant role in this. As we have discussed, many areas have experienced declines in gobbler numbers. Gobbling is an instinctive behavior used to both attract hens and challenge rival gobblers. That instinctive behavior is also a "triggered" response,...that is, it is, to a degree, involuntary.
In any given area, there are gobblers that are willing to gobble voluntarily due to that instinctive impulse,...and there are gobblers that will not gobble unless they are triggered. Decreases in numbers of gobblers in an area eliminates a good deal of that triggering mechanism.
Anybody that has hunted much in areas with good turkey densities has seen this in action. The woods are quiet until one gobbler starts up,...and then, within a few minutes the woods are ringing with gobbles. Conversely, many of us have probably been in places where there were so few gobblers that the only gobbling that occurred was that of the voluntary nature.
In heavily hunted areas, that voluntary gobbling can be suppressed, which I believe accounts for the decrease and/or later-occurring gobbling activity. Add that suppression to the fact that there are fewer gobblers around and we see the results that are being discussed here.
There are ways for hunters to adapt to all of that, but I will not get into that here. It tends to bring a "triggered" response from a few folks. (lots of smiley faces here)
Heavy hunted areas they don't gobble untill dawn in my experience,these public gobblers in Louisiana don't gobble much and stay in the tree very late
aaron, All you'll do trying to roost gobblers in my area is waste an evening you could have done something constructive. You'll occasionally hear one but it's not worth the investment. I like to get tight to,, but I play with the cards I'm dealt and this is where you apply your woodsmanship. I personally would prefer on public ground that a bird not gobble his butt off before shooting hours, it just attracts other hunters. Most of the time I'm already on the ground I want to be on even if he hasn't gobbled
Trends like this seem to come and go on my place.
I've got 200 acres in the Trans-Bluegrass of KY. I've been hunting it for two decades. Turkeys definately go through phases.
They didn't used to gobble year-round. Then Mister Moto came to town. That bird used to gobble from way before sunrise until sunset. He gobbled in every month of the year. After a few years, the original Moto vanished, but he left behind min-Motos.
About 3 years ago, the whole Moto thing ended. The bloodline petered out. It came back this year. My guess is that the Sons of Moto moved off to another ridge and now the bloodline is reasserting itself. You know a Moto, because he gobbles all morning and never shows the slightest interest in coming to a call.
Gobbling in the dark may be like that-- a genetic trait. I've seen gobblers under the right conditions keep gobbling well past dark, but they tend to shut up after 10 PM. Once in a blue moon they'll go off before first light, but it's been years around here since that happened. What seems to bring it on for us is days of very hot dry weather. I'd say we've had those conditions maybe once a decade or so.
Possibly this is also a regional phenomenon, here they usually start about 45 minutes before it starts getting light with more gobbling as it gets lighter with fly down when it is light enough to see the ground. Once on the ground it is rare to hear then gobble.
With that said this year seems to be very different. I am surrounded by public and private ground and have usually started hearing gobbling by as early as January with them in full swing by now. In past years I could go on my deck and call a 1/2 hour before sunrise and have 3 or 4 gobbles in response. So far this year I have had no responses.
I cant say what they did 10-12 years ago but in my area for the past 10-12 yrs I occasionally hear gobbles 30 mins or so before first light but most I hear will be triggered by the first crow. That first crow had kind of been my bench mark for expecting to hear a gobble. I think they dont crow untill they can see well enough to fly.
It is definitely region specific. La Gobblers very and I mean very rarely gobble after flyup. Roosting in the evening is less than useless. Of course I'm sure someone here in La hears them gobble every day at 6pm sharp 365 days a year and they also come to crow calls in the dark lol. But other than fairytales roosting is a waste of time here.
Now you can drive north for a day and it's almost like hunting another species.
Quote from: shaman on March 06, 2020, 09:49:23 AM
Trends like this seem to come and go on my place.
I've got 200 acres in the Trans-Bluegrass of KY. I've been hunting it for two decades. Turkeys definately go through phases.
They didn't used to gobble year-round. Then Mister Moto came to town. That bird used to gobble from way before sunrise until sunset. He gobbled in every month of the year. After a few years, the original Moto vanished, but he left behind min-Motos.
About 3 years ago, the whole Moto thing ended. The bloodline petered out. It came back this year. My guess is that the Sons of Moto moved off to another ridge and now the bloodline is reasserting itself. You know a Moto, because he gobbles all morning and never shows the slightest interest in coming to a call.
Gobbling in the dark may be like that-- a genetic trait. I've seen gobblers under the right conditions keep gobbling well past dark, but they tend to shut up after 10 PM. Once in a blue moon they'll go off before first light, but it's been years around here since that happened. What seems to bring it on for us is days of very hot dry weather. I'd say we've had those conditions maybe once a decade or so.
I've had them gobble during deer season as well
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Quote from: strum on March 06, 2020, 11:56:16 AM
I cant say what they did 10-12 years ago but in my area for the past 10-12 yrs I occasionally hear gobbles 30 mins or so before first light but most I hear will be triggered by the first crow. That first crow had kind of been my bench mark for expecting to hear a gobble. I think they dont crow untill they can see well enough to fly.
I hunted a private land gobbler that gobbled before light, and gobbled at everything but that was an exception. Hunted a public gobbler that waited on a specific crow to call not just any crow, when that tom gobbles the crow went to him a And they would call back and forth until the hunters started moving in
Quote from: eggshell on March 06, 2020, 09:43:26 AM
aaron, All you'll do trying to roost gobblers in my area is waste an evening you could have done something constructive. You'll occasionally hear one but it's not worth the investment. I like to get tight to,, but I play with the cards I'm dealt and this is where you apply your woodsmanship. I personally would prefer on public ground that a bird not gobble his butt off before shooting hours, it just attracts other hunters. Most of the time I'm already on the ground I want to be on even if he hasn't gobbled
I hear ya eggshell. I have hunted farms where I can count on one hand the number of evening gobbles I've heard over many years. But I also have farms where they gobble their brains out at night regularly. I have often tried to determine what the difference is. Farms close in distance and similar population numbers.
I don't remember in all the years hunting them of hearing them gobble in the dark. Its right before daybreak or nothing where I hunt.
If I'm on my way in to set up and I hear them gobbling I overslept and the sun is coming up and song birds a singing.
I can't remember what year it was but I got up early one morning to travel on a hunt. When we hunt neighboring Ky we'll often leave like 3:00 AM to hunt that morning before a stay, it save a night in a motel. It was a very bright full moon and a gobbler was gobbling on the ridge by the house, I was amazed. It was at least 3 hours before daylight. Never heard any that early again.
Have noticed the trend over the years and seem they gobble less overall than years ago. When I first started it wasn't a common occurrence' but have ran into several gobblers back then gobbling on the roost well before first light. Now they seem to wait till first light and never hear them under the dark of the morning anymore.
My takes it's definitely predators, because that's the main thing that changed from back then till now. We always had hunting pressure back them and now, but never noticed coyotes way back then as I do now. I imagine the birds wise up to calling yotes in before first light, only to get pounced on at fly down? Also Fishers are becoming more common in many areas too.
On a related note, a couple years back, it seems the coyote population was very high... I called in a number of coyotes (screwing up my hunting) trying to turkey hunt...
However, I was the only human hunting the area...
The birds were very vocal on the limb before fly-down, but shut the heck up on the ground....
Obviously the birds adjusted and adapted to the situation. I do think over a long period of time we are likely to create a genetic response in behavior, but I also think that birds will react to immediate situations as well.....
Quote from: Marc on March 06, 2020, 09:09:40 PM
On a related note, a couple years back, it seems the coyote population was very high... I called in a number of coyotes (screwing up my hunting) trying to turkey hunt...
However, I was the only human hunting the area...
The birds were very vocal on the limb before fly-down, but shut the heck up on the ground....
Obviously the birds adjusted and adapted to the situation. I do think over a long period of time we are likely to create a genetic response in behavior, but I also think that birds will react to immediate situations as well.....
Birds do that alot at my place too. Shut up once on the ground. Sometimes they are fired up all morning too though. I think barometric pressure plays a part too, just my opinion
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I have a property where the birds dont ever gobble anymore. Whats strange is 10 years ago it was pretty normal gobbling before daylight and throughout the day. Now im luck to hear 3 gobbles all season but we still do pretty good they just come in quiet
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I wasn't alive in the 80s but I've only heard em gobble in pitch black darkness a small handful of times. One was a bird that gobbled his head off well after dark and the rest were just random single gobbles before the first crack of daylight
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I once stepped out of the cabin and heard one gobbling at 3:30 in the morning. This was probably in 2012. Most of the time its getting light enough to see 40yds in the woods before I hear any.
One gobbled this morning at 0615 hours with sun rise at 0729 hours.
Glad you heard one. There are exceptions to everything. I am comparing years worth of observation in the areas I hunt. I would like to hear some gobble that early where I can move in close without busting them. In the 80's and 90's I could move in and be set up waiting to get light out to start working them. Very very seldom do I hear birds when its that dark in my area.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on March 09, 2020, 02:13:22 PM
Glad you heard one. There are exceptions to everything. I am comparing years worth of observation in the areas I hunt. I would like to hear some gobble that early where I can move in close without busting them. In the 80's and 90's I could move in and be set up waiting to get light out to start working them. Very very seldom do I hear birds when its that dark in my area.
Just curious as to how you set up? I have done this numerous times and it has never worked to my advantage. I probably should explain that this particular property the birds roost in digger pines at the head of a canyon and when they fly down it is usually down into the canyon or onto an adjacent property that we can not access. Probably only one in twenty times will they fly down on a shooting side.
Quote from: NCL on March 09, 2020, 02:31:41 PM
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on March 09, 2020, 02:13:22 PM
Glad you heard one. There are exceptions to everything. I am comparing years worth of observation in the areas I hunt. I would like to hear some gobble that early where I can move in close without busting them. In the 80's and 90's I could move in and be set up waiting to get light out to start working them. Very very seldom do I hear birds when its that dark in my area.
Just curious as to how you set up? I have done this numerous times and it has never worked to my advantage. I probably should explain that this particular property the birds roost in digger pines at the head of a canyon and when they fly down it is usually down into the canyon or onto an adjacent property that we can not access. Probably only one in twenty times will they fly down on a shooting side.
Depends on the time of year and where the bird is at. Most times I figure out strut zones and places they go on a regular basis and I get in those places. Some birds have no pattern as you know. I usually get a 100 yards or so from him. When they gobble before light , i use to get pretty close. Upped the odds of pitching down in my lap.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on March 09, 2020, 04:48:27 PM
Quote from: NCL on March 09, 2020, 02:31:41 PM
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on March 09, 2020, 02:13:22 PM
Glad you heard one. There are exceptions to everything. I am comparing years worth of observation in the areas I hunt. I would like to hear some gobble that early where I can move in close without busting them. In the 80's and 90's I could move in and be set up waiting to get light out to start working them. Very very seldom do I hear birds when its that dark in my area.
Just curious as to how you set up? I have done this numerous times and it has never worked to my advantage. I probably should explain that this particular property the birds roost in digger pines at the head of a canyon and when they fly down it is usually down into the canyon or onto an adjacent property that we can not access. Probably only one in twenty times will they fly down on a shooting side.
Depends on the time of year and where the bird is at. Most times I figure out strut zones and places they go on a regular basis and I get in those places. Some birds have no pattern as you know. I usually get a 100 yards or so from him. When they gobble before light , i use to get pretty close. Upped the odds of pitching down in my lap.
Thank you. I appreciate the info.
Quote from: GobbleNut on March 06, 2020, 08:17:44 AM
I believe turkey densities,...that is the number of turkeys, both gobblers and hens,...plays a significant role in this. As we have discussed, many areas have experienced declines in gobbler numbers. Gobbling is an instinctive behavior used to both attract hens and challenge rival gobblers. That instinctive behavior is also a "triggered" response,...that is, it is, to a degree, involuntary.
In any given area, there are gobblers that are willing to gobble voluntarily due to that instinctive impulse,...and there are gobblers that will not gobble unless they are triggered. Decreases in numbers of gobblers in an area eliminates a good deal of that triggering mechanism.
Anybody that has hunted much in areas with good turkey densities has seen this in action. The woods are quiet until one gobbler starts up,...and then, within a few minutes the woods are ringing with gobbles. Conversely, many of us have probably been in places where there were so few gobblers that the only gobbling that occurred was that of the voluntary nature.
In heavily hunted areas, that voluntary gobbling can be suppressed, which I believe accounts for the decrease and/or later-occurring gobbling activity. Add that suppression to the fact that there are fewer gobblers around and we see the results that are being discussed here.
My thoughts exactly! Every experience we have in the turkey woods (
turkeys behavior, gobbling frequency, which call we think is the best, opinions of a property, hunting pressure effect, etc) ALL has to do with turkey density at the time of our experience. That experience that day/year is just a snapshot in time. I have hunted some of the same properties for the last 20 years and my opinion of them in 2005 compared to 2019 is completely different, due to my wildly different experiences and how much they varied over the years. I'm more seasoned and more patient than even, but the turkey density just isn't what it was back then, thus my expectations have to be managed to fit today's variables, many of which, I cannot control.
The more I think about it I am convinced my calling is too pretty and sexy. There are a ton of pretty hens out there and they have the attention of all the handsome and young gobblers. What I need to do is sound pure butt ugly on my calls when they are silent.....You know there's always that one guy that will go for the ugly chick sitting at a table by herself while her pretty friend dances with prince charming. So I want to get the attention of that one gobbler that's lowered his standards maybe he's just an old longbeard that will take any hen that'll have him or some young two year old that's ready to hump whatever holds still. Yup I need to practice being butt ugly and desperate ....then I'll get em to gobble
I'm going to get on the Density train....but also the pressure game....
In NE Washington the birds will gobble on the limb. I mean for an hour before getting off the roost and hour once on the roost. We have a very good number of gobblers though.
Alternatively when you go hunting in Western Washington where there are so few birds that there isn't a chance for real density them birds still make a ruckus before light and after light. Here there is no pressure because unless your in the know, you can't find them to hunt them. So very few even put in the effort.
Shot four birds off the roost last year; 1 Florida, 1 Oregon, and 2 in Washington. All four were piping off before I could see my hands.
Quote from: eggshell on March 11, 2020, 02:40:56 PM
The more I think about it I am convinced my calling is too pretty and sexy. There are a ton of pretty hens out there and they have the attention of all the handsome and young gobblers. What I need to do is sound pure butt ugly on my calls when they are silent.....You know there's always that one guy that will go for the ugly chick sitting at a table by herself while her pretty friend dances with prince charming. So I want to get the attention of that one gobbler that's lowered his standards maybe he's just an old longbeard that will take any hen that'll have him or some young two year old that's ready to hump whatever holds still. Yup I need to practice being butt ugly and desperate ....then I'll get em to gobble
its not that my call is sexy, I have a dirty mouth and I think those gobblers can't believe a girl is talking like that so ...... You know
At a place I hunt in the Midwest, 20 yrs ago birds would gobble all night long. Also they would fly down in the dark. So dark they would hit the ground and strut and you couldn't see the bead on your gun. Same way with fly up. They waited until dark to even think about going up. In that same time, the predator population (coyotes) exploded. Now they act like birds from Ms.
Quote from: avidnwoutdoorsman on March 11, 2020, 06:41:55 PM
I'm going to get on the Density train....but also the pressure game....
And
Shot four birds off the roost last year; 1 Florida, 1 Oregon, and 2 in Washington. All four were piping off before I could see my hands.
Guess you didnt reg the Florida regs. Roost shooting is illegal there.
Quote from: deerhunt1988 on March 13, 2020, 07:49:42 AM
Quote from: avidnwoutdoorsman on March 11, 2020, 06:41:55 PM
I'm going to get on the Density train....but also the pressure game....
And
Shot four birds off the roost last year; 1 Florida, 1 Oregon, and 2 in Washington. All four were piping off before I could see my hands.
Guess you didnt reg the Florida regs. Roost shooting is illegal there.
I'm certain he meant that he set up on early morning roosted birds and shot them after they came out of the tree....not in the tree!....
Quote from: ThunderChickenHunter21 on March 07, 2020, 08:51:14 AM
I think barometric pressure plays a part too, just my opinion
I don't know if its barometric pressure or what, but there are certainly one or more factors that I have not been able to identify that affect gobbling from one day to the next. On numerous occasions I have hunted two consecutive days under what appeared to be identical conditions. One day, there is gobbling from everywhere,...and the next, hardly any.
A couple of years ago I hunted one morning in a spot where there were a dozen (or more) gobblers scattered along a canyon whoopin' it up at first light in the morning. Never disturbed most of those birds (except one!) and nobody else was hunting in there.
Took a buddy back in there the next morning and it was like a funeral. Finally had one gobbler sound off two times. It was one of those "you should have been here yesterday" moments, for sure. To me, the conditions were exactly the same as the day before,...but to those turkeys, there was something that shut them down. ...Beats the heck out of me!
Pressured birds get smart, whether it's 'totes or hunters. Hunters educate the hens by calling to the toms while they're still roosted. Coyotes make 'em wait on the sunrise for better light.
Quote from: JoeA on March 15, 2020, 06:25:55 AM
. Hunters educate the hens by calling to the toms while they're still roosted.
I think you made a good point. We always talk about Gobbler education, or how multiple bad experiences will cause such and such behavior. What about the hens that die of natural causes(in most places)? How many shot Gobblers, or hen calls that turn out to be a person, or the sound of vehicles ending with a flock member shot etc. does the average hen experience in a lifetime. I think the hens being suspicious of a situation and leading the Gobbler away happens more than we know. Like the old doe that has been around long enough to look into trees for hunters and are sometimes more wary than an old buck. I have myself watched hens turn and lead a Gobbler away from my calling. Was she trying to keep the Gobbler to herself, or was she avoiding a situation she was familiar with?