We have been discussing the decline in turkey numbers in regions of the country. So here is my question? What, if anything, is being done in your state to research and address these declines by your wildlife departments,...and/or in conjunction with the NWTF?
Florida does virtually nothing to my knowledge. Everyone has to come here for the Osceolas, so they are more about making money. FWC is routinely underfunded and has drastically cut turkey management programs.
I havent seen anything being done in the state of Ms. not saying it hasnt but nothing that I am aware of.
Louisiana has moved the opening date back a couple weeks. I think it has had a positive impact? That's all I know of.
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I talked to a local GW here in Ga about 6 months ago. He said they felt the timing of opening weekend was a big factor and they were looking at moving it back a week. I'm not convinced that's an issue. We've had the same opener for years without any problems other than the typical bad hatch years from bad weather. And Alabama has moved their opener back six days this year and added three to the end of the season. So shortened the season by 3 days as well as move the opener back. Still a 5 bird limit though as far as I know.
MO's turkey biologist seems to think it's just cyclic and to my knowledge nothing is being done.
NY closed 2 weeks of the fall season and promotes "not shooting " hens in the fall. They have 2 studies going on by DEC biologists but I've heard nothing of solid answers other than they blame "wet springs". Springs are always wet in WNY. There are "pockets" of birds around the state that are doing better. The DEC took way to long to react to the numbers dropping IMO. The numbers rose a little few years back because the racoon population had a rabbi academic. The population is back up, no one hunts or traps racoons much anymore. Personally, I only take 1 spring gobbler even though I'm allowed two and haven't hunted the past 5 years the fall season. When you engage and talk with DEC officials you get the "run around". You mise well talk to the wall. ...
I agree with Tracker on a large part of the problem being predators. Back in the days when turkeys were plentiful coon hunting was a money maker and virtually every hillbilly had a dog and hunted. Now coyotes are rampant as well as other turkey predators. I don't see shorter fall seasons and basing populations on fall harvest as a valid means of managing turkey populations. Fall hunting is just about dead anymore here in WV. I haven't hunted fall birds in several years as old age catches up with guys of my era and young hunters are fixated on bowhunting. I think just over 1k were killed last fall and down from the year before. So the WV fall season will probably be messed with again since it really doesn't make money or put hunters out there.
Not sure what, if anything the Pa Game Commission is doing. I don't hunt public land, but I think I read somewhere that the Game Commission along with the local NWTF chapters have done some habitat improvement work on state ground.
The Game Commission did begin offering a "special" extra turkey tag a few years ago, to provide hunters with the "opportunity" to harvest a second bird. Of course there is an extra "special" price of $21.90 for residents and $41.90 for non residents to purchase this extra tag. Initially the proceeds were designated to go toward turkey research and habitat improvement, but we never hear any follow up info around how that's working out. My guess is that after administration fees, other costs associated with this "special" tag and the usual mismanagement of funds....there isn't much....if anything left for turkeys. Or if there is...it gets redirected to higher priority items.
I do know that over the last couple of years they have added some new jobs to the payroll, including making a big splash last year by hiring Matt Morrett, to provide his "expertise of the outdoor industry" and put him in charge of "new hunter recruitment". Not sure how that's working out either.
What I do know is that, at least in my area, land management for hunting is a pretty big deal. Many landowners, including myself, spend countless hours of effort and sometimes ridiculous amounts of money on food plots and habitat improvement. The abundance of year round food sources and quality habitat is what I believe to be the key in keeping a good population of birds in my area.
Still the overall number of turkeys in my area is down significantly from 15 years ago and I totally agree with what others have said around predators and specifically coons having had the biggest negative impact. Plus, it's now common to see bobcats, fishers and an occasional bald eagle in our area, which was unheard of 15 years ago.
As I stated in another thread, the Arkansas Game and Fish say is it due to multiple factors: Flooding, bad hatches, predators, hogs, timber company changes in harvesting, etc.
My opinion is that is all true with a dash of nature. I do think the AGFC could be doing more; like the creation of a Stream Management Zone LAW...most timber companies only loosely follow and true SMZ.
TN needs to cut the 4 bird bag limit.
Quote from: shatcher on February 25, 2020, 07:19:02 PM
TN needs to cut the 4 bird bag limit.
While I can see why many would like that, it has not been proven to work in other states. Also, pushing back seasons has not helped.
Now if someone has evidence contrary to what I have stated, I would be more open minded about restriction. But mindlessly throwing regulations at a dart board with nothing more that a theory is what hurts hunting more in the long run.
Everything mentioned could be argued that it is a theory. Fact is, everyone here has mentioned something that is correct. No easy fix.
Oklahoma plants food plots on WMAs, kills a few hogs, finally opened coon season all year and has a county by county bag limit to spread out the harvest. I guess it's better than some.
TN is basically just looking around commie Nashville and thinking everything is great when it's really not in the rest of the state.
They cut out taking hens in the fall. I think if Tn had a night time predator season it would help a few poults survive.
NH and Maine are relatively new to Turkey studies and management. Fish and game in both states are realizing the importance of our new resource. New laws and bag limits are being utilized to stabilize the numbers here. I believe they are putting in the effort to keep this fairly new resource thriving. Seminars are being held every spring in both states, I did a seminar and mentored 2 new hunters. One responded in a positive way and the other put in nom effort at all. I will take my first hunter again this year , lazy boy wont get another call. NWTF has partnered with NH fish and game to sponsor these events which were an overall positive experience. Al Baker
Texas is pretty active in the eastern part of the state trying to introduce eastern turkeys via trap and transplant but to my knowledge not much other than some small habitat projects have been done in other parts.
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http://larrydablemontoutdoors.blogspot.com/2020/01/feral-hogs-and-disappearing-turkeys.html
Thought this to be an interesting read. I believe this guy is spot on in his criticism of MDC. This sounds so familiar with the attitude out of Jefferson City regarding many agencies.
Quote from: Rzrbac on March 02, 2020, 02:12:00 PM
http://larrydablemontoutdoors.blogspot.com/2020/01/feral-hogs-and-disappearing-turkeys.html
Thought this to be an interesting read. I believe this guy is spot on in his criticism of MDC. This sounds so familiar with the attitude out of Jefferson City regarding many agencies.
What a joke. Get rid of youth season? They killed 5700 birds in Fall. Get rid of Fall season? Killed 36,000 Spring. Est. population is 360,000. MO season is late. It's designed to spread pressure out. Monday start,1 bird first week,1 bird per day,hunting hours till 1:00. Most breeding is done by season opener. He's just butt hurt cause he didn't kill 2 birds. Until predators start getting trapped and hunted and land gets managed,turkey populations are what they are. Maybe do some trap lines instead of looking at your hit list buck on your lap top and staying out of his core area until rut and azz slapping your crew members when the come up with some dipchit name for every buck on the hit list.
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nothing is being done in Ms. the nwtf is a joke and the state is just about as bad
Quote from: surehuntsalot on March 04, 2020, 02:55:51 PM
nothing is being done in Ms. the nwtf is a joke and the state is just about as bad
Agree about NWTF. They are about making money anymore and not turkeys. If people would quit giving them money they might pay closer attention and get back to what they used to be. Tn. has basically been hiding behind a 7 year study that is not complete, shoved their thumbs up their you know whats and done nothing. When the people who pay for the license and spend the most time in the woods start screaming for them to open the season later and cut the limit to two you would think this would set off some bells and whistles.
The state of NJ is a cash grap state when it comes to Turkey tags. There idea of wildlife management is for making money only. What state allows resident and non resident hunters to pay the same fee for the tag!! Then allow you to buy as many as you can grab with over the counter sales so no limit to the amount of Turkeys you can shoot if you have the tags. Conservation is not part of NJ FIsh and Wildlife. NWTF chapters only care about there banquets and revenue money, they don't work with the state when it comes to change things for the better to protect Turkeys in the future years. We can't use shot smaller than #7 we just went to a call in registration system this year still not tested. Ask any hunter in NJ and they'll tell you they be happy with a 2 bird season. But it will never happen because of the cash grab. Come to NJ and bring lots of ammo.
Quote from: surehuntsalot on March 04, 2020, 02:55:51 PM
nothing is being done in Ms. the nwtf is a joke and the state is just about as bad
I can vouch for that. 100 percent true.
I'm from Mass. and we have a Turkey population that has been stable as long as I have been hunting (25 yrs). We have a late start end of of April and I think that has a lot to do with it. It gives the birds time to mate w/o interference, and w/o taking toms out of circulation too early. The season should start at the beginning of the second gobbling peak. At least that's the opinion of some of the biologists in some state's game Depts. Something to consider. Also bird flu might be a problem in the southern tier of states. Just an opinion, we all have one. My :z-twocents:
Quote from: Rzrbac on March 02, 2020, 02:12:00 PM
http://larrydablemontoutdoors.blogspot.com/2020/01/feral-hogs-and-disappearing-turkeys.html
Thought this to be an interesting read. I believe this guy is spot on in his criticism of MDC. This sounds so familiar with the attitude out of Jefferson City regarding many agencies.
I agree to an extent with the author. When I was a kid , season opened for everyone on the same day. No youth season for anything. Before I get hammered I will say that youth weekend is just a opportunity to allow alot of abuse. Plenty of guys take a kid that can barely walk and they lay the slap down on the birds. This is just example that I know happens. Not everyone does this but many do. Now , I dont believe that is a huge impact on the birds but is a small factor. Poachers shooting birds happens during small game season. Then you have guys that just slay the turkeys and pay no mind to bag limits. Hard to fix these things. Now what we can fix is trapping more predators and get a handle on timber cutting. Scalping the landscape is what I mean. Studies have shown on the other hand that a bred hen can store gobbler semen up to 30 days. If you kill every gobbler out of a flock except one jake , all the hens will be bred. I am not a biologist , just what I read somewhere. I do know also that 2 year old birds gobble great and are fun to hunt. You shoot jakes you wont have 2 year olds. You shoot hens in the fall , you wont have as many birds. Some will say well if I dont kill that jake , he has a high mortality rate and will most likely not survive to year 2. Well if you bust him in the face , one thing is for sure , he wont be around next year. Now he may very well get eaten by something but there is a chance that he wont. Lots of folks say as long as its legal , hunt and kill the way you want. I agree with this but the best advocates for these birds are us turkey hunters. You will never get everyone on the same page , just the way it is. I know I make a small impact on the flocks that I hunt , but instead of waiting for the government to step in , I try to improve and help anyway I can. Instead of sending money to the NWTF , I use my money to improve things where I hunt. We will all never agree but we can agree to disagree. Just my measly 2 cents.
Quote from: Spitten and drummen on March 04, 2020, 07:18:45 PM
I agree to an extent with the author. When I was a kid , season opened for everyone on the same day. No youth season for anything. Before I get hammered I will say that youth weekend is just a opportunity to allow alot of abuse. Plenty of guys take a kid that can barely walk and they lay the slap down on the birds. This is just example that I know happens. Not everyone does this but many do. Now , I dont believe that is a huge impact on the birds but is a small factor. Poachers shooting birds happens during small game season. Then you have guys that just slay the turkeys and pay no mind to bag limits. Hard to fix these things. Now what we can fix is trapping more predators and get a handle on timber cutting. Scalping the landscape is what I mean. Studies have shown on the other hand that a bred hen can store gobbler semen up to 30 days. If you kill every gobbler out of a flock except one jake , all the hens will be bred. I am not a biologist , just what I read somewhere. I do know also that 2 year old birds gobble great and are fun to hunt. You shoot jakes you wont have 2 year olds. You shoot hens in the fall , you wont have as many birds. Some will say well if I dont kill that jake , he has a high mortality rate and will most likely not survive to year 2. Well if you bust him in the face , one thing is for sure , he wont be around next year. Now he may very well get eaten by something but there is a chance that he wont. Lots of folks say as long as its legal , hunt and kill the way you want. I agree with this but the best advocates for these birds are us turkey hunters. You will never get everyone on the same page , just the way it is. I know I make a small impact on the flocks that I hunt , but instead of waiting for the government to step in , I try to improve and help anyway I can. Instead of sending money to the NWTF , I use my money to improve things where I hunt. We will all never agree but we can agree to disagree. Just my measly 2 cents.
You summed it up pretty well,...and that just shows how complicated the issue is.
Regarding the "Some will say well if I dont kill that jake , he has a high mortality rate and will most likely not survive to year 2." That is a false premise. Once a turkey reaches adulthood, it has a very good chance of living past age 2.
On the NWTF and its place in this discussion: I have been both an avid NWTF supporter in the past,...and an NWTF basher more recently. Make no mistake, the organization has its place in the future of wild turkey population health and wild turkey hunting. It just lost its focus on its original mission.
That focus needs to be restored,....and that starts with the NWTF membership insisting that the organization get back to that mission. Here's a suggested starting point:
Each state has a "Superfund" pot of money to spend. Some states have really big Superfunds. As a member, find out what that money is being spent on,...and then ask yourself,,.."is that really where I want the money I contribute spent?"
Personally, I believe the average NWTF member would "have a cow" if they found out how much of that money is spent on programs that are mainly in place to attract more people to raise dollars as compared to how much is spent on actually helping struggling turkey populations.
If you are an NWTF member in a state where your turkey population is struggling, you should be going straight to the top of your state organization and demanding to know how the money you contribute is being spent. My bet is that you will find that a dismally small portion of your contribution is being spent on actually helping wild turkeys.
As turkeys are not considered "native" to California... Nothing is being done.
You can NOT transplant birds in California.
However, the most stable populations of turkeys near me, are in the foothills, and populations are completely dependent on rainfall. In the past 10 years I have seen populations dramatically wax and wane.
We are starting to get populations in some of the agricultural areas and in the Sacramento Valley. In some areas they are considered a nuisance bird, but trapping and relocating is out of the question...
In fact, I believe it was the Sierr@ Club that bartered a deal with the Fish & Wildlife department NOT to transplant any more birds anywhere in California (i.e. it is considered illegal to do so).
Personally, I do have some reservations about transplanting more birds myself... Ranches that previously held very good valley quail populations (native game birds) that now hold reasonable turkey populations, no longer hold good quail populations. I have seen turkeys eat baby quail, and have no doubt that they compete for seed food sources and that nesting habitat (especially near water on dry years) is competitive.
Many upland game hunters view turkeys in a similar way that other areas of the country view feral hogs...
Well in Connecticut they raised the bag limit to 5 bearded birds state wide in the spring (it was 2 on state land and 3 on private land and they just did away with the property distinctions) and they also went to all day hunting. Meanwhile the fall bag limit is 3 either sex birds and a few years ago they did away with a dedicated turkey stamp and went to a residence game bird stamp to lump it in with pheasant, grouse etc. So the short answer it seems is nothing but encouraging people to shoot more turkeys.
Quote from: johnski on March 19, 2020, 07:52:25 AM
Well in Connecticut they raised the bag limit to 5 bearded birds state wide in the spring (it was 2 on state land and 3 on private land and they just did away with the property distinctions) and they also went to all day hunting. Meanwhile the fall bag limit is 3 either sex birds and a few years ago they did away with a dedicated turkey stamp and went to a residence game bird stamp to lump it in with pheasant, grouse etc. So the short answer it seems is nothing but encouraging people to shoot more turkeys.
Wow! Sounds like Connecticut turkeys are doing really well,...or there are a lot of people that want to get rid of them! I can think of a bunch of states that would like to be in your position.
In Virginia they do run studies and surveys plus do some habitat management. We have a three bird limit 2 can be taken in the Fall or all three can be taken in the Spring which is usually how I take mine although after two I don't push it. There is a youth season which is popular. The turkey population appears very strong to me. I flew up about 35 plus birds during muzzle loading season and then had 8 Jake's march by my stand. Worried about those Jakes running off the long beards. Saw that happen about five years back. I cut wood on public land and see a lot of Turkeys there. In fact every time I go on public land I see turkeys.
Quote from: GobbleNut on March 19, 2020, 09:51:01 PM
Quote from: johnski on March 19, 2020, 07:52:25 AM
Well in Connecticut they raised the bag limit to 5 bearded birds state wide in the spring (it was 2 on state land and 3 on private land and they just did away with the property distinctions) and they also went to all day hunting. Meanwhile the fall bag limit is 3 either sex birds and a few years ago they did away with a dedicated turkey stamp and went to a residence game bird stamp to lump it in with pheasant, grouse etc. So the short answer it seems is nothing but encouraging people to shoot more turkeys.
Wow! Sounds like Connecticut turkeys are doing really well,...or there are a lot of people that want to get rid of them! I can think of a bunch of states that would like to be in your position.
IMO the turkey population in Connecticut has declined in the last few years at least around me. It seems the powers that be don't value turkey's. Connecticut has mandatory reporting, by phone or computer, and they base the harvest numbers on that with no adjustment for people that don't report. Up until a few years ago the reporting system was not user friendly and was frustrating to use even for someone like myself that is fairly computer literate so I could see people giving up. To be fair I never used the automated phone system but I could see that being a pain as well. I am not saying that is an excuse but I could see some people going home cleaning the turkey and not bothering to report or trying to report and getting kicked out of the system a couple times and giving up. I don't think people are necessarily shooting more then there limit I just don't think the state has a good handle on the true harvest. The other states in the north east either have a 1 or 2 bird limit in the spring and next door neighbor, New York, is rumored to be kicking around the idea of idea of going to a one bird limit. ( I don't know how true that is just a rumor I heard)
Great thread. I live in NJ. I have seen declines in recent years with our turkeys. In my opinion, it seemed to coincide with coyote and bear increases. Our birds are not as vocal as they used to be, this is only my thoughts. The numbers taken each year have not drastically decreased, but they have gone down. I can only hope that it comes back. I think maybe shutting down the fall season for a year or so could help, and paying strict attention to season bag limits when bad winters and wet springs occur. This is important to mortality rates and future increases or decreases in the overall numbers. Be safe...