I'm trying to get my new A5 dialed in for turkey season and I'm shooting about 6 inches low and a couple inches to the left at 20 yards. Would stacking the beads like a figure 8 raise my point of impact? I'm doing my best to mount the same every time to my cheek and look flat down the rib with the beads lined up but still shooting low.
The front bead and mid bead need to form a figure 8 to be consistent.
Making an "8" with by stacking your beads will raise your point of impact. Use bead alignment to give a consistent hold and point of aim (POA). So will raising the comb (top edge of the stock). If your pattern is still off from your POA, your stock may need some adjustment. Ideally, your gun should point naturally, according to how you hold it with a minimum of squirming and tilting "to get it just right".
Is this a turkey gun or your do-it-all boomer? Here's 2 options to address your issues of low and left POI. First, a shim kit for the stock. The other is to try wrapping something around the stock to raise the comb (like a wrapid comb), and use a reflex red dot to address windage issues.
Good luck this spring!
Quote from: JoeA on February 20, 2019, 08:48:01 PM
Making an "8" with by stacking your beads will raise your point of impact. Use bead alignment to give a consistent hold and point of aim (POA). So will raising the comb (top edge of the stock). If your pattern is still off from your POA, your stock may need some adjustment. Ideally, your gun should point naturally, according to how you hold it with a minimum of squirming and tilting "to get it just right".
Is this a turkey gun or your do-it-all boomer? Here's 2 options to address your issues of low and left POI. First, a shim kit for the stock. The other is to try wrapping something around the stock to raise the comb (like a wrapid comb), and use a reflex red dot to address windage issues.
Good luck this spring!
Thanks yes this is my do it all gun. Should the gun shoot exactly the same POI no matter which shell I'm using such as a target load or a 3 1/2 inch Turkey load? I'm gonna shoot a few more rounds in the morning then if needed I'll add a shim.
Also when stacking the beads should the top bead be below the target or cover the target?
Line them up until they appear as one bead!!
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Quote from: ugaDAWGS09 on February 20, 2019, 09:02:42 PM
Quote from: JoeA on February 20, 2019, 08:48:01 PM
Making an "8" with by stacking your beads will raise your point of impact. Use bead alignment to give a consistent hold and point of aim (POA). So will raising the comb (top edge of the stock). If your pattern is still off from your POA, your stock may need some adjustment. Ideally, your gun should point naturally, according to how you hold it with a minimum of squirming and tilting "to get it just right".
Is this a turkey gun or your do-it-all boomer? Here's 2 options to address your issues of low and left POI. First, a shim kit for the stock. The other is to try wrapping something around the stock to raise the comb (like a wrapid comb), and use a reflex red dot to address windage issues.
Good luck this spring!
Thanks yes this is my do it all gun. Should the gun shoot exactly the same POI no matter which shell I'm using such as a target load or a 3 1/2 inch Turkey load? I'm gonna shoot a few more rounds in the morning then if needed I'll add a shim.
Several factors will change POI Shell's can definitely change POI even deferent lot numbers of the same shell can change your POI.
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Quote from: Ozarks Hillbilly on February 20, 2019, 09:25:45 PM
Quote from: ugaDAWGS09 on February 20, 2019, 09:02:42 PM
Quote from: JoeA on February 20, 2019, 08:48:01 PM
Making an "8" with by stacking your beads will raise your point of impact. Use bead alignment to give a consistent hold and point of aim (POA). So will raising the comb (top edge of the stock). If your pattern is still off from your POA, your stock may need some adjustment. Ideally, your gun should point naturally, according to how you hold it with a minimum of squirming and tilting "to get it just right".
Is this a turkey gun or your do-it-all boomer? Here's 2 options to address your issues of low and left POI. First, a shim kit for the stock. The other is to try wrapping something around the stock to raise the comb (like a wrapid comb), and use a reflex red dot to address windage issues.
Good luck this spring!
Thanks yes this is my do it all gun. Should the gun shoot exactly the same POI no matter which shell I'm using such as a target load or a 3 1/2 inch Turkey load? I'm gonna shoot a few more rounds in the morning then if needed I'll add a shim.
Several factors will change POI Shell's can definitely change POI even deferent lot numbers of the same shell can change your POI.
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Tomorrow I'm going to shoot some Remington 3 inch #5s and see how they shoot. The 3 1/2 inch LB #6s are the shells shooting low and left.
Quote from: ugaDAWGS09 on February 20, 2019, 09:05:22 PM
Also when stacking the beads should the top bead be below the target or cover the target?
Below
In the heat of the battle with turkey coming into range , the last thing i want to worry about is how I've got to manipulate the aiming of my gun .. I would look at different sights , red dot or whatever it takes to lesson the change of missing my bird in the heat of the battle ...
Quote from: Greg Massey on February 20, 2019, 10:58:07 PM
In the heat of the battle with turkey coming into range , the last thing i want to worry about is how I've got to manipulate the aiming of my gun .. I would look at different sights , red dot or whatever it takes to lesson the change of missing my bird in the heat of the battle ...
This
In this case, I'd give a +1 to Greg's response.
It's one of those issues that if you gotta ask. . .
However, let me try and tackle the OP's question. The answer is it depends.
Shotguns with pins are meant to be shot instinctively. They're not meant to be deliberately aimed. However, we do just that when we use them on turkeys. I've hunted with one bead and two. The system is really dependent on a good cheek weld, and that is not always possible with a gobbler.
Your hold is going to be determined at the patterning board. Let's say you have one bead. You put it at 6 O'Clock and touch one off. It's low. So now you try dead-on and you get a good pattern. In the end you may be 12 O'Clock at 40 yards and 6 O'Clock at 5. You'll have to practice. 2 Beads? There is no set method, but normally you want to see no rib and have the back pin surrounded by the front pin. That may change when you take it to the pattern board. The pins may line up as two concentric circles, or an 8 or the back pin may be shifted left or right. It's all about you, your cheek weld, the load, the distance, the choke and how you mount the shotgun. Unlike a scope, the pins require practice to figure out what is going to work.
Scopes take away a lot of that guesswork, but they're also dependent on a consistent cheek weld. One big benefit of a scope is that they give you feedback on your cheek weld. You have to put your cheek right at the sweet spot in order to get the right sight picture. Red Dots, reflex sights, and their like remove that requirement somewhat. That is, they throw the dot on where the shotgun is aimed no matter what your cheek weld at least up to a point.
Quote from: shaman on February 21, 2019, 07:17:11 AM
In this case, I'd give a +1 to Greg's response.
It's one of those issues that if you gotta ask. . .
However, let me try and tackle the OP's question. The answer is it depends.
Shotguns with pins are meant to be shot instinctively. They're not meant to be deliberately aimed. However, we do just that when we use them on turkeys. I've hunted with one bead and two. The system is really dependent on a good cheek weld, and that is not always possible with a gobbler.
Your hold is going to be determined at the patterning board. Let's say you have one bead. You put it at 6 O'Clock and touch one off. It's low. So now you try dead-on and you get a good pattern. In the end you may be 12 O'Clock at 40 yards and 6 O'Clock at 5. You'll have to practice. 2 Beads? There is no set method, but normally you want to see no rib and have the back pin surrounded by the front pin. That may change when you take it to the pattern board. The pins may line up as two concentric circles, or an 8 or the back pin may be shifted left or right. It's all about you, your cheek weld, the load, the distance, the choke and how you mount the shotgun. Unlike a scope, the pins require practice to figure out what is going to work.
Scopes take away a lot of that guesswork, but they're also dependent on a consistent cheek weld. One big benefit of a scope is that they give you feedback on your cheek weld. You have to put your cheek right at the sweet spot in order to get the right sight picture. Red Dots, reflex sights, and their like remove that requirement somewhat. That is, they throw the dot on where the shotgun is aimed no matter what your cheek weld at least up to a point.
Thanks for all the info. I may end up getting a red dot of some sort and just taking it back off after season. Seems to make things much easier. Any recommendations on a red dot that won't break the bank?
Bushnell TRS-25
Quote from: sasquatch1 on February 20, 2019, 09:24:04 PM
Line them up until they appear as one bead!!
This is the proper way align your beads...they should be flat across the top and look as one. Head down shoot straight. :z-guntootsmiley:
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As stated above, I would get a red dot, and the Bushnell TRs-25 is a good cheap option that will work.
Just adding clamp-on adjustable rifle sites, like Williams Firesights, is a simple option.
Quote from: stinkpickle on February 21, 2019, 10:50:10 AM
Just adding clamp-on adjustable rifle sites, like Williams Firesights, is a simple option.
Agree, and the Williams provide both windage and elevation adjustment for the center core of the pattern.
Quote from: paboxcall on February 21, 2019, 11:00:01 AM
Quote from: stinkpickle on February 21, 2019, 10:50:10 AM
Just adding clamp-on adjustable rifle sites, like Williams Firesights, is a simple option.
Agree, and the Williams provide both windage and elevation adjustment for the center core of the pattern.
This is a good way to go. The OP has an Auto-5. I'm not sure if it is going to be D/T'd for a scope.
So I decided to raise the comb on my gun and shot several different shells today. I'm still about 4 to 5 inches low at 25 yards. Is the only way possible to raise my POI to add adjustable sights or a red dot sight?
Before anything else, I'd try a different choke tube and load to see if its the barrel or not. For example I have two guns with the same threads, so I own two extended choke tubes, same manufacturer, same ID, both manufactured around the same time period. One throws the pattern core about two inches left in both guns, while POI matches POA in both guns with the other tube.
If its the barrel, a quality gunsmith can bend that for you if needed.
Quote from: ugaDAWGS09 on February 21, 2019, 03:07:32 PM
So I decided to raise the comb on my gun and shot several different shells today. I'm still about 4 to 5 inches low at 25 yards. Is the only way possible to raise my POI to add adjustable sights or a red dot sight?
Are you shooting in a lead sled to pattern?
I've shot it propped up in a Turkey chair and shot it using bags. Same exact pattern each time.
Quote from: ugaDAWGS09 on February 21, 2019, 03:07:32 PM
So I decided to raise the comb on my gun and shot several different shells today. I'm still about 4 to 5 inches low at 25 yards. Is the only way possible to raise my POI to add adjustable sights or a red dot sight?
Yes! There is nothing you can do to move POI other than use adjustable sights.
Shims, do absolutely nothing to change POI
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Quote from: ugaDAWGS09 on February 21, 2019, 03:07:32 PM
So I decided to raise the comb on my gun and shot several different shells today. I'm still about 4 to 5 inches low at 25 yards. Is the only way possible to raise my POI to add adjustable sights or a red dot sight?
If you are only 4-5 inches low when you are sighting so that you are only seeing one bead, you can raise the POI by setting the front bead on top of the middle bead (the mid bead is the rear sight)
buy a couple of boxes of dove loads and practice aiming this way, this is a very simple sighting method and won't be hard to develop the muscle memory to shoot like this.
Quote from: crow on February 21, 2019, 05:04:10 PM
Quote from: ugaDAWGS09 on February 21, 2019, 03:07:32 PM
So I decided to raise the comb on my gun and shot several different shells today. I'm still about 4 to 5 inches low at 25 yards. Is the only way possible to raise my POI to add adjustable sights or a red dot sight?
If you are only 4-5 inches low when you are sighting so that you are only seeing one bead, you can raise the POI by setting the front bead on top of the middle bead (the mid bead is the rear sight)
buy a couple of boxes of dove loads and practice aiming this way, this is a very simple sighting method and won't be hard to develop the muscle memory to shoot like this.
So I should be able to see some of the rib between the methods when stacking like this. I'm really just raising my eye up off the stock some?
You can do what you want, but trying to manipulate this gun and guess your sight bead's , will probably cost you a bird in all the excitement. Either get you a set of William adjustable sights or red dot ... don't mess around with trying different methods of getting the beads to shoot POI if it want shoot POI....
Quote from: Greg Massey on February 21, 2019, 05:57:08 PM
You can do what you want, but trying to manipulate this gun and guess your sight bead's , will probably cost you a bird in all the excitement. Either get you a set of William adjustable sights or red dot ... don't mess around with trying different methods of get the beads to shoot POI if it want shoot POI....
I would agree with what Greg said here. You really don't want to have to think too much when aiming at a turkey. It should be as intuitive as possible.
That said, (I am assuming you are right handed here) if you just do not want to mess with any kind of sight there is a way for your situation. Your eye is the rear sight. If you are shooting low and left you need to raise your eye and move it left. This can be done with a comb raising kit. Beartooth makes one last I looked (which was a while ago). The kit can raise your eye enough to get you on target I am sure, they go over an inch high. The kit is a neoprene sleeve that goes over the stock and just that alone will move your eye over to the left a bit. If you need more you could try some tape or whatever under the neoprene to get you on target.
That said (again) I use both a reflex sight on one turkey gun and shoot another gun with just beads. My back up turkey gun (which I use for fall turkey hunting as my primary gun) is just beads. It was off a bit but I corrected it with shims. And shims absolutely DO work BTW. They work quite well, but many guns don't have shims in their design. A gun not designed for shims can be moved over but only slightly. After that you are stuck with modifying the stock (bending or sanding) or a comb kit unless you need to go down and right (for a righty).
Quote from: ugaDAWGS09 on February 21, 2019, 05:42:02 PM
Quote from: crow on February 21, 2019, 05:04:10 PM
Quote from: ugaDAWGS09 on February 21, 2019, 03:07:32 PM
So I decided to raise the comb on my gun and shot several different shells today. I'm still about 4 to 5 inches low at 25 yards. Is the only way possible to raise my POI to add adjustable sights or a red dot sight?
If you are only 4-5 inches low when you are sighting so that you are only seeing one bead, you can raise the POI by setting the front bead on top of the middle bead (the mid bead is the rear sight)
buy a couple of boxes of dove loads and practice aiming this way, this is a very simple sighting method and won't be hard to develop the muscle memory to shoot like this.
So I should be able to see some of the rib between the methods when stacking like this. I'm really just raising my eye up off the stock some?
To your last questions------- no do not raise your face up off of the stock, you need a comfortable, consistent cheek weld (face on the stock), you are aiming this gun like a rifle.
ideally you do not want to see any rib between your middle bead and receiver.
So, keep your face on the stock where your comfortable, sight down to the middle bead (now a rear sight), with stock in your shoulder and not moving it or your face, raise muzzle of gun and put the front bead on top of middle bead. Again with being only 4-5 inches low this should get your POI very close.
It is no more complicated or takes more thought to put the front bead on top of the middle bead than it does to put a front bead down in the V notch of a regular rear sight.
If it's the center of your pattern that is 4-5" low with how you are sighting now, if you aim at his head that will drop your pattern down to cover his head and most of his neck
lots of turkeys still being killed with a front bead, a middle bead is a bonus.
Buy 100 (or 200) dove loads, shoot at enough paper to have confidence your POI is matching POA. Then practice with the rest on tin cans until you are comfortable with it. Save a few to practice some left handed shots.
$40 truglo gobble dot. Both windage and elevation adjustments. All metal construction. You will spend more on shells trying to fix. Some shotguns don't shoot straight.
Quote from: turkaholic on February 22, 2019, 08:06:14 AM
$40 truglo gobble dot. Both windage and elevation adjustments. All metal construction. You will spend more on shells trying to fix. Some shotguns don't shoot straight.
Amen to that. I bought a Mossberg 500 out of the scratch-n-dent bin at Dick's years ago. It was cheap, but it got the job done-- or so I thought.
It was wickedly out of whack. I decided to mount a scope on it and deal with the subtleties after season was over. Big mistake. I got it sighted-in at 25 yards with the scope, but didn't realize it was still shooting to the left at 10 yards. I had a gimme shot the next day on a fine gobbler, and watched the wad sail past my head. I sent the barrel to Mossberg, and they sent me back a straight one. Lesson learned.
BTW: If you can find a good gunsmith that knows shotguns, the old-fashioned way to fix your Auto-5 problem was to give it to a 'smith that knew what he was doing, and he'd bend the barrel to adjust it whatever way you wanted. A buddy of mine suggested this as a fix to the Mossy. Luckily I didn't have to go that route.
I had a Benelli Nova that was so so out of whack on the barrel that I just got rid of it. It was outside the max adjustment on Tru Glo sights! I put a red dot on it and killed a few turkeys, but I just gave up on it. Aggravating thing.
My new turkey gun came with a ghost ring rear sight and a front bead. I took one look at it and hated it. But everyone told me to just get used to it, it would be fine. They were right. It is 4 for 4-from 38 to 24 yards. I now have a couple of ARs and it feels much more natural to shoot this way.
I agree. If you are making adjustments to how you shoot, it will cost you a turkey without the proper sights. And I KNOW this is true, because I missed 2 with that Nova until I got the red dot. One was in a thick swamp and there were vines and I had a weird angle to hold it up and just whiffed. I may miss another, but not to save the little bit it costs to get a proper sight. You won't regret it.
I prefer double beads, my sbe2 shoots dead on with the beads, rear bead centered on front bead.
I use a 20 now and had to put rifle sights on it, too bad I like the view with beads better!
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You can try a different choke too.. often that will fix it
Quote from: Dtrkyman on February 22, 2019, 04:48:19 PM
I prefer double beads, my sbe2 shoots dead on with the beads, rear bead centered on front bead.
I use a 20 now and had to put rifle sights on it, too bad I like the view with beads better!
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I have the best of both worlds i can use my beads and i can use my scope ...