Hey guys. Wondering if you could throw some advice my way. Up until about 5 years ago it would nothin to see a good 6-8 toms in the flock with a handful of jakes. Then, about 5 years ago I began to notice there doesn't seem to be as many toms like there normally is. And finally, I saw 1 tom in the entire flock. Did a lot of scouting, trying to find more but it was just the one. I was wondering if I should shoot him if I had the opportunity. Well, I got that chance and took it, and he ended up being a monster (28#, 11" beard). And although I thought it was crazy to think this, I couldn't help but think, "did I just shoot the ONLY tom in the area?" Didn't make me feel any better not seeing any jakes neither.
Then the next year, there were 3 toms (obviously was some jakes from the previous year). I shot one. So we were down to 2 toms the way it appeared. The year after, just those 2 toms again. I know it was the same toms because they both never leave each other's sides and both have unique beards. A few weeks ago, I saw a flock and sure enough those same two toms again.
I know it seems I'm jumping to conclusions, but what could be the problem here? We used to see a bunch of toms every year, to only seeing a couple. I will admit that I do usually get a bird each spring, but could that really "hurt" the population??
Someone else I talked to about this said if u have a lot of raccoons in the area to start getting rid of them, as they are a major risk to the turkey population due to them being bad nest predators, and that this could be the problem?
Does anyone have any advice on what I can do to help this situation out a little? I don't want to feel like shooting a tom is going to put a hurting on the turkey numbers.
Thanks guys
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Raccoons are a major problem in my opinion.Notorious egg suckers who have been left unchecked for many years now.
In the past fur price was high ,many ran dogs and shot many coons which kept them in check.Trapping was popular also. You know during those years the turkey population exploded .
Also remember the best time to shoot a coyote? Is When you see one . Too many turkey predators out there.
Poor hatches,habitat and predators are factors in the turkey population. You can control 2/3 of this.
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There is a heated discussion on this topic already posted about turkeys dying off going i'll try to find the thread title
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Turkeys are dyin? Is the other thread
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every year I have roughly 15 to 20 toms counting all the areas I hunt. between me and people I take we usually kill almost all of them. next year there is always 15 to 20 toms again. I watched 18 die last year and there are more this year than last. that being said, I forbid the shooting of jakes when people hunt with me. even if they are 5 years old.
If there are too many toms in an area up here, they move off to adjacent areas. We have a decent stable population here right now. I hunt a wide area of southern Maine and NH. When you find them, there are usually a bunch. I do let jr and first time hunters shoot jakes. It gets them hooked and most of them make up their own mind to be tom hunters after that. My 10 year old daughter shot her first bird, a jake ,last year on youth day. She was so happy. 40 mins later 4 more jakes came in, she scanned them all and said" Dad, is it ok if I wait for a big tom". I was so proud of her. We hunted the rest of the season, every satyrday, and had 3 more oppurtunities on jakes. She never took the safe off. She is in all turkey mode right now. We are making some pot calls to try this year. That would be the cherry on top if she kills one when I am using our calls. My wife is hunting for the first time too, a little pressure on me this year. Good luck everyone. Al Baker
There is a couple of things that happen in a population that is occurring in many parts of the country and I have seen turkey hunters lament over what is a natural phenomena. In most parts of the US turkey populations were either non-existent or very sparse. State DNRs then began reintroducing birds from other areas or states. What happens with wildlife species is they first sense a broad expanse of unfilled habitat and reproduction explodes to fill it. This happens to the point of saturation. Then a natural reduction in populations starts to happen. Why do birds decrease? Every habitat has a carrying capacity. Carrying capacity is a function of food, shelter and competition. Local populations will fall back to a carrying capacity. This will vary with poor hatches or good hatches, but be within say 30% of a mean from year to year. Predators can influence this but are far less impact then most think, only in extreme cases are predators to blame. Disease can be devastating, and that is why most agencies do not want domestic birds introduced. Predator population will fluctuate to what prey levels are. This whole process of saturation to carrying capacity will in most cases take 25-30 years to run a complete cycle and most hunters have not been around that long. So when they see it happening they fear the worse. I have watched in happen in multiple regions in my 45 years of turkey hunting. I also have a degree in wildlife management and worked for a state wildlife agency for 30 years. SO that is why you see about the same number of gobblers every year. So don't worry about killing a few, there are birds your not seeing around. It would be rare to over kill an area.
Great info, this is happening in the New England now. No turkeys in the 70's, a few in the 80's, 90's wer better, 2000's wewre good and now it is leveling off here. But they are moving north and thriving. year to year we see a small change. We try to thin out the predators and some of us plant or feed for them during the non hunting months. Great read, Thanks. Al Baker
Quote from: eggshell on March 21, 2018, 08:33:10 AM
There is a couple of things that happen in a population that is occurring in many parts of the country and I have seen turkey hunters lament over what is a natural phenomena. In most parts of the US turkey populations were either non-existent or very sparse. State DNRs then began reintroducing birds from other areas or states. What happens with wildlife species is they first sense a broad expanse of unfilled habitat and reproduction explodes to fill it. This happens to the point of saturation. Then a natural reduction in populations starts to happen. Why do birds decrease? Every habitat has a carrying capacity. Carrying capacity is a function of food, shelter and competition. Local populations will fall back to a carrying capacity. This will vary with poor hatches or good hatches, but be within say 30% of a mean from year to year. Predators can influence this but are far less impact then most think, only in extreme cases are predators to blame. Disease can be devastating, and that is why most agencies do not want domestic birds introduced. Predator population will fluctuate to what prey levels are. This whole process of saturation to carrying capacity will in most cases take 25-30 years to run a complete cycle and most hunters have not been around that long. So when they see it happening they fear the worse. I have watched in happen in multiple regions in my 45 years of turkey hunting. I also have a degree in wildlife management and worked for a state wildlife agency for 30 years. SO that is why you see about the same number of gobblers every year. So don't worry about killing a few, there are birds your not seeing around. It would be rare to over kill an area.
I agree with 99% of your post, however I have witness a few times over the years, not a decline, but an almost disappearance of a population of birds......while you worked with the agency, what did you experience as far as disease is concerned ??
That's what I have seen in areas of northern Missouri as well.
Farms with 8-10 gobbler on it reduced to 2 or so and no bounce back to at least 4-5 and some down to none .
Not much has changed on these farms as far as habitat and feed.
one of my biggest problems is the baiting of turkeys on neighboring properties.
Populations have ups and downs. The main problem is recruitment. You can't lay, hatch and rear for them. Can't control the weather, either.
Taking out feral cats, coons, possums and crows helps some, for sure, but is it even measurable? I will caution against shooting predators that also prey on rats, etc.
The one thing that I have found that I did not know before the past few years, is that turkey retract into historical ranges when populations dip. The idea that they concentrate and can be overhunted in a small area is alarming. I intentionally left an area be and later learned someone else focused on it because that is the only area he found birds at all. I spread my harvest around a few counties. He stayed on those birds until he killed what were probably the only few gobblers within ten miles.
It is hard to document disease as it is usually too late before you realize there was a problem, but it can be devastating. I think our wild flocks are building some immunity as they have spread out and had incidental exposures. That is just a feeling I have, I can't document it. I have seen some local flocks really decline and never really put a reason behind it. Recruitment is primary to turkey stability and three straight years of bad hatches can be devastating. I think it is possible to hunt down a population in some area, particularly in area with sparse continuous habitat, like farm land with wood lots. When birds suddenly disappear from suitable habitat my guess is disease is the most likely cause. Like I said you usually don't realize this until the birds are gone.
I too am a concerned New England hunter and agree with most here. I have read about LPDV and Avain Pox in NY and it seems real. I have not seen any evidence of this personally. You would think if birds are dying there would be evidence left behind. Like feathers etc. The areas I hunt and have hunted for over 30 years are in decline and have been for nearly 8 or 10 years. I also see a lack of toms and jakes but see many hens. With this decent number of hens you would think the population would be fine. I also find myself reluctant to kill birds, because I love them and turkey hunting and can't stand where it's heading. I normally get one bird in CT and one in NY and this is my average sucess rate. I will however let them walk, and it feels good.
Around here in the mountains of Md and Wv populations have stayed steady for the most part. We have never been covered up in turkeys and they are found in patches. I still think it's a good idea to spread out where I kill birds and don't take more than one tom from an area. I did a few times in my younger days but have learned to spread it out. I do the same with deer. There usually isn't to much of a threat of disease around here because we don't typlcally have guys fighting to keep all the wildlife on their property and off their neighbors.That's when you really have problems. Loading an area with corn and feed causing animals to stack up in an area is a perfect way to cause a lot of problems. Of course greed will win and people will cry. New trends in turkey hunting are also causing higher sucess rates which in turn will cause issues. Everyone wants to blame everything but themselves as usual.
Hunting mortality on gobblers is a real influence. Here is a link to a study that was done by OHIO, PA and New York jointly on survival rates of gobblers. It's a good survey and interesting read. As far as finding turkey remains, they disappear fast as every predator and scavenger uses the remains, even the feathers are collected by birds and cavity nesters. I once cut open a tree that had a squirrel nest in it that was full of turkey feathers. It was along my field where I throw carcasses, but an example of what happens.
http://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/WildlifeSpecies/Turkey/Documents/Annual%20Survival%20and%20Spring%20Harvest%20Rates%20of%20Male%20Wild%20Turkeys.pdf
I would like to see a "No Jake Rule" for all non minor hunters. Lots of jakes killed up here. Not being a hypocrite, my first bird was a jake. That was 20 years ago when any turkey was a rare trophy. But things have change rapidly here. The turkey numbers are up compared to 15 years ago, so people see them more and say, " I think I will start hunting them now". This is great to get more people interested, but Maine went to a 4 bird limit. 2 in the spring and 2 in the fall. This now brings in the " deer only" hunters killing some as collateral damage or a pre deer warmup. This is real too, I know plenty of guys that hunt the fall season only as an opportunity hunt. NH is still only one bird and the numbers are stabilizing. If they want to give a one time tag for new turkey hunters to shoot a jake, I would vote for it. I want people to enjoy this awesome sport. But I don't want it to go crazy. My wife is hunting for the first time this year, I already told her to decide if she wants to shoot a jake or not. It's a personal choice and it isn't wrong. My daughter shot her first turkey, a jake, last year and passed a second jake that same day, I was very proud of her. " Dad, can I wait, I want to shoot a Tom now, I already shot a jake" That's my girl. I worry more about the weather and predators than hunters. You cant change the weather or other hunters, but you can "clean up" as many predators as possible :funnyturkey:. Al Baker
One issue we have in MS (not where I hunt but south ms) is alot of land is owned by timber companies/managed by timber companies and they will go in and cut all of the hardwoods down to around 30 ft around creeks. Then they will burn/harvest whenever they can get in there. Often times this is in March/April/May destroying tons of nesting habitat and actual nests. Thus hurting recruitment.
Unfortunately they don't seem to care as profit comes first and foremost which I get to an extent but at the same time I think they have a responsibility to use due diligence when managing large blocks of land. Especially public.
Quote from: eggshell on March 22, 2018, 08:52:17 AM
Hunting mortality on gobblers is a real influence. Here is a link to a study that was done by OHIO, PA and New York jointly on survival rates of gobblers. It's a good survey and interesting read. As far as finding turkey remains, they disappear fast as every predator and scavenger uses the remains, even the feathers are collected by birds and cavity nesters. I once cut open a tree that had a squirrel nest in it that was full of turkey feathers. It was along my field where I throw carcasses, but an example of what happens.
http://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/WildlifeSpecies/Turkey/Documents/Annual%20Survival%20and%20Spring%20Harvest%20Rates%20of%20Male%20Wild%20Turkeys.pdf
thanks for the link Shell ! Cool info there. I just wish it was more recent. 2009 was a lot of turkeys ago
Eggshell, I live in middle Tennessee and I my area I have thought that maybe herbicide use is farming may cause a problem where turkeys might ingest plants that have been sprayed is this possible? Another thought I had the other day was black buzzards in an area I use to hunt I don't see the turkeys I use to and I drive thru there everyday but the buzzards have started roosting in the area. I don't know where the black buzzards came from cause we never had them here I am 59 and don't remember seeing any growing up and from the time I was 10 I was either in the woods or on the water.
Quote from: BB30 on March 22, 2018, 10:32:03 AM
One issue we have in MS (not where I hunt but south ms) is alot of land is owned by timber companies/managed by timber companies and they will go in and cut all of the hardwoods down to around 30 ft around creeks. Then they will burn/harvest whenever they can get in there. Often times this is in March/April/May destroying tons of nesting habitat and actual nests. Thus hurting recruitment.
Unfortunately they don't seem to care as profit comes first and foremost which I get to an extent but at the same time I think they have a responsibility to use due diligence when managing large blocks of land. Especially public.
This is the absolute truth. It's a shame the Nwtf won't at least visit with these timber companies and attempt to work with them
I live in WNY. Got bit by the bug and started hunting turkeys 1983. Since then I've noticed a drastic drop in the population the last 12 years. On the NY DEC website they had posted the turkey harvest from 2002 to 2016, birds reported. You didn't have to be a "rocket scientist" to see the drop off. I attend organized sportsmen meetings along with DEC. I was told that there are 2 studies going on. 1 from Cornell and the other not sure who. I was told that they are 5 year studies. Well 5 years and more have past and still at every meeting I ask the question "What are the results of the turkey studies ? " and I get shrugged shoulders and no results yet. I would also like to know why it took DEC wildlife biologist's that long to react in the first place. Us hunters are the "eye's and ears" out there. We hunters here in WNY where trying to tell them, DEC, that there is a problem out there for many years. They are always blaming the weather saying above average rainfall, "This Spring was the wettest ever !" Well I'm 65 and ever since I can remember Spring is "wet". I believe they should go back to a "split" spring season and 1 Gobbler only until things improve and hunters should refrain from shooting jakes.....
tracker #1 I also live in western NY and I agree with everything you said 100%.
Interesting thread as I've seen a sharp decline in my hunting spots here in southern MO. I noticed the decline when I started noticing the hog sign. I've blamed hogs for the decline but notice many members here have both hogs and turkeys. I talked to a hunter in GA who had an interesting theory. He said the numbers went down in his areas when farmers starting using turkey manure from turkey farms for fertilizer. None of those near me, just chicken farms but it seems like it may have the potential of passing on disease.
One other thing I know makes it hard on our birds is poaching. I've found numerous carcasses during spring season that was obviously from poaching, i.e. some in trash bags that obviously were killed well before season. It's also not uncommon to hear single shotgun shots in the mornings leading up to season while listening.
I know the past few years we have had some very bad flooding late season but I would expect that to only show a small decline in a very short cycle.
I just started hunting turkeys in 2006 first in NY and then the following year I moved to Connecticut and now I hunt NY, CT and Rhode Island and I have seen I a decline in all 3 states since I have been hunting. The state of Connecticut in there wisdom actually increased the number of tags you get now. I can legally harvest 10 turkeys a year in the state (5 in the spring and 5 in the fall) all with the purchase of one permit. That is more then double what any other state in the North East allows. I just wonder what they know that everyone else doesn't.
I will at least give some credit to NY as they cut the fall limit down from 2 to 1 in the last year or so.
Ttt
Quote from: tracker#1 on March 24, 2018, 11:00:01 AM
I live in WNY. Got bit by the bug and started hunting turkeys 1983. Since then I've noticed a drastic drop in the population the last 12 years. On the NY DEC website they had posted the turkey harvest from 2002 to 2016, birds reported. You didn't have to be a "rocket scientist" to see the drop off. I attend organized sportsmen meetings along with DEC. I was told that there are 2 studies going on. 1 from Cornell and the other not sure who. I was told that they are 5 year studies. Well 5 years and more have past and still at every meeting I ask the question "What are the results of the turkey studies ? " and I get shrugged shoulders and no results yet. I would also like to know why it took DEC wildlife biologist's that long to react in the first place. Us hunters are the "eye's and ears" out there. We hunters here in WNY where trying to tell them, DEC, that there is a problem out there for many years. They are always blaming the weather saying above average rainfall, "This Spring was the wettest ever !" Well I'm 65 and ever since I can remember Spring is "wet". I believe they should go back to a "split" spring season and 1 Gobbler only until things improve and hunters should refrain from shooting jakes.....
agree 99%, but I do not believe the bag limits effect the overall population that much....the populations of turkeys in suburban areas that do not allow hunting have also declined.....I myself don't know why, but am disappointed with no answers coming from agencies that get paid to look into problems that we are having thru out the eastern states...they seem to try to keep us happy by throwing out bones like weather, habitat, predators, ect. ......these individual reasons do not hold water in all of the vast area that is having this problem..
although there are many environmental issues affecting turkey populations in my honest opinion I feel there's a direct correlation between the amount of birds available and the amount of good, modern, well informed hunters pursuing them..
I started hunting 5 years ago. I hunt a buddies farm and its pretty small. 60 acres of which 15 is woods. There are 2 creeks that run through it though and several big oak trees so it has good habitat. People told me the population would keep getting bigger and they were right. But its leveled off the last 2 years and I think its just because the population is maxed out for the land area. Holds around 30 hens and 8 toms every year. Ive put a 2 bird limit on. myself. May not need it but makes me feel better. Several coyotes and raccoons on the property too but haven't noticed any drastic drop in population. Think they are necessary for the whole ecosystem. Only thing cant control is hunters on neighboring properties
As I said in another thread turkey populations are down in many parts of Kentucky. A few bad hatches and expolosion in the coon population are factors. I think all nest raider populations are up. People just don't trap and run dogs like they used too. Land access has alot to do with that in my opinion.
Really interesting discussion here. Lot's of opinions as to what might be happening in different parts of the country. The fact is, everybody is probably correct to some degree in their individual assessments of the factors impacting turkey populations where they are located. I might as well add my penny's worth...
The bottom line is that, as hunters and conservationists, there are some factors we can have a positive impact on,...and others we cannot. Having a thorough understanding of wild turkey biology, and basing hunting/management decisions on that is one of the things we can control. One of the most obvious is the setting of season dates. The entire premise of spring gobbler hunting is that if you let the turkey population have adequate time to breed before you hunt them, it does not matter how many gobblers you take out of the population afterward. Simply put, spring hunting in properly-timed seasons has no impact on wild turkey populations,...IF (and its a big IF) all/some other factors (environmental factors, habitat, predation, etc.) are not overwhelmingly negative.
Get the right combination of factors for a few springs and turkey populations can skyrocket. Get the wrong combination, and they can plummet. Those, in either case, are almost never associated with human predation/hunting, but the most obvious result of those combinations of either good or bad factors is the quality of our turkey hunting in any given place and year.
Human-induced factors are another matter. Changing agricultural practices, use of pesticides/herbicides that may very well be impacting nesting success and poult survival, introduction of poultry diseases due to the expanding domestic poultry industry, changes in social attitudes about predator control, artificial feeding practices, climatic changes (especially increased spring flooding), etc......all have the potential, singly or in combination, to significantly impact turkey populations.
As far as habitat/carrying capacity goes, the good news is that we are perfectly capable of modifying that for the good,....if there is enough desire to get it done. The bad news is that population recruitment (poult survival) is not so easily accomplished. We have to have some help from nature on that one.
Lots of good input on this thread. A lot of things I never thought of that make perfectly good sense. I always was a little irritated that MI has only a 1-bird limit. But now, I'm almost glad they do.
My dad and I really started getting into trapping raccoons last year and will be doing it even more this year, with the intention (and hope) that the nest predation would be reduced. Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe what we're doing won't help a darn thing, but to me if it saves even 1 poult I'm all for it. We got 20 of them last year. As far as I know there are no other turkey hunters within 3/4 mile of where we're at.
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I usually do a little trapping for yotes and cats to help the deer on my place. I may try to do coons next year in my turkey hunting spots, can't hurt.
Coyotes, coons and crows, I try to keep the populations down as much as possible. I think if their numbers are up, turkeys are down. Just my observation over the last 25 years in New England. Al Baker
I've seen the flock in my area this year, and although things can change from now until 3 weeks from now, it sure is pathetic. 1 tom in the whole flock. The spot I've seen birds for YEARS I have yet to see one bird this year. Barely any tracks. Sure is depressing. I'm asking myself, should I even hunt? Seems to me that shooting a tom would be brutal to the population in this area.
Just can't believe I go from seeing 5-6 toms every year, multiple jakes, and probably 30 hens .. to averaging 2 toms at the most, maybe a jake or two, and maybe 10 hens.
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