I seem to remember reading in a magazine I think Turkey and Turkey Hunter, Turkey Call or maybe Bowhunter Magazine about a 7th species of Turkey
The ones I know.
Eastern
Osceola
Rio Grande
Merriam's
Gould's
And
South Mexican wild turkey
This one I can't recall I seem to remember them talking about it living in a tropical climate and that the male birds call sounded more like that of a pecock than that a male turkey. Does anybody have any clue what I am talking about? I have not found anything online about it and it is driving me nuts because I remember reading about it. It may not have been in the United States but I am unsure of that as well. I am heading back to bed but will look back at this when I get back in the afternoon. Thanks for any help.
Oscellated???
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There are two species of wild turkey. Meleagris gallopavo and Meleagris (previously Agriocharis) ocellata (Ocellated). There are 6 subspecies of Meleagris gallopavo that you listed.
Quote from: cwaggg on March 15, 2018, 03:17:45 AM
There are two species of wild turkey. Meleagris gallopavo and Meleagris (previously Agriocharis) ocellata (Ocellated). There are 6 subspecies of Meleagris gallopavo that you listed.
From what I saw trying to figure this out on Wikki (Not the best I know) my understanding was that South Mexican and Meleagris gallopavo are the same, am I incorrect in my understanding? Also is ocellata (Ocellated) the same as Florida's Osceola? Also does the Meleagris gallopavo have that peacock sound I am thinking of? I am thinking I know the answer is no because I was watching Primos' TV show last night and they were in Mexico hunting and they sounded the same as any other turkey. Thank you for your reply by the way, not trying to argue, trying to understand and remember. My memory is not the best with my meds so perhaps I am remembering something wrong. Edit: I went and found a video and now see what you are saying, sorry for being so dense. It was indeed the Ocellated and no they are not the same as Florida's Osceola. Thanks again and here is a video of the Ocellated https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXibYdtoFhQ
Also above I listed Eastern, Osceola, Rio Grande, Merriam's and Gould's as species, that was my mistake, I know better, they are sub-species of the Meleagris gallopavo as you pointed out. Can't believe I did that.
Quote from: runngun on March 15, 2018, 02:54:53 AM
Oscellated???
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I don't think so, that would be the same as they have in Florida right? Edit: You were correct, I went and found a video of them. Sorry for my mistake. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=380p6Qix7LM
Quote from: Sir-diealot on March 15, 2018, 06:23:15 AM
Quote from: runngun on March 15, 2018, 02:54:53 AM
Oscellated???
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I don't think so, that would be the same as they have in Florida right? Edit: You were correct, I went and found a video of them. Sorry for my mistake. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=380p6Qix7LM
You are confusing the Osceola (Florida turkey) with the Ocelated (different species, found in Central America). It is thought that there was another subspecies of Gallopavo (the turkey species native to North America) and that subspecies resided in Mexico. That subspecies, if it indeed was a different one, has been extinct for some time.
There are five recognized (living) subspecies of our North American wild turkey, which you listed. However, genetic studies done back in the 1980's, I believe, showed that the Eastern and Osceola subspecies were so close genetically that it was questionable whether the Osceola should be considered to be a separate subspecies. I think that debate kind of faded away because nobody wanted to open that can of worms.
Although the Ocelated turkey is considered to be a member of the turkey family in terms of general appearance, as far as hunters (and hunting) are concerned, it might as well considered a totally separate bird altogether. It has very few characteristics that would logically lump it in with the North American species.
Butterball?
Quote from: GobbleNut on March 15, 2018, 08:10:44 AM
However, genetic studies done back in the 1980's, I believe, showed that the Eastern and Osceola subspecies were so close genetically that it was questionable whether the Osceola should be considered to be a separate subspecies. I think that debate kind of faded away because nobody wanted to open that can of worms.
The only difference in the two is the amount of money that can be asked for one over the other. Eventually all of Florida will have "pure Osceola" turkeys.
Quote from: davisd9 on March 15, 2018, 08:46:44 AM
Quote from: GobbleNut on March 15, 2018, 08:10:44 AM
However, genetic studies done back in the 1980's, I believe, showed that the Eastern and Osceola subspecies were so close genetically that it was questionable whether the Osceola should be considered to be a separate subspecies. I think that debate kind of faded away because nobody wanted to open that can of worms.
The only difference in the two is the amount of money that can be asked for one over the other. Eventually all of Florida will have "pure Osceola" turkeys.
:TooFunny: How true! I wonder what the difference in hunting fees is for the guy that has property just north of that imaginary line as compared to the guy just south of that line? The birds they are hunting are probably from the same flock, but if they cross that line, they are suddenly worth a lot more (apparently). :toothy12:
Quote from: daddyduke on March 15, 2018, 08:22:06 AM
Butterball?
Those farm birds certainly act like a whole 'nother animal. :toothy9:
Quote from: GobbleNut on March 15, 2018, 08:10:44 AM
Quote from: Sir-diealot on March 15, 2018, 06:23:15 AM
Quote from: runngun on March 15, 2018, 02:54:53 AM
Oscellated???
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I don't think so, that would be the same as they have in Florida right? Edit: You were correct, I went and found a video of them. Sorry for my mistake. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=380p6Qix7LM
You are confusing the Osceola (Florida turkey) with the Ocelated (different species, found in Central America). It is thought that there was another subspecies of Gallopavo (the turkey species native to North America) and that subspecies resided in Mexico. That subspecies, if it indeed was a different one, has been extinct for some time.
There are five recognized (living) subspecies of our North American wild turkey, which you listed. However, genetic studies done back in the 1980's, I believe, showed that the Eastern and Osceola subspecies were so close genetically that it was questionable whether the Osceola should be considered to be a separate subspecies. I think that debate kind of faded away because nobody wanted to open that can of worms.
Although the Ocelated turkey is considered to be a member of the turkey family in terms of general appearance, as far as hunters (and hunting) are concerned, it might as well considered a totally separate bird altogether. It has very few characteristics that would logically lump it in with the North American species.
Yes I was confusing the two (Ocelated and Osceola) thinking they were the same. Thank you very much for your replies and setting me straight. I did post a link showing the Ocelated and I believe that has to be the one I was thinking of as it looks and sounds much like a peacock.
Quote from: GobbleNut on March 15, 2018, 09:07:30 AM
Quote from: davisd9 on March 15, 2018, 08:46:44 AM
Quote from: GobbleNut on March 15, 2018, 08:10:44 AM
However, genetic studies done back in the 1980's, I believe, showed that the Eastern and Osceola subspecies were so close genetically that it was questionable whether the Osceola should be considered to be a separate subspecies. I think that debate kind of faded away because nobody wanted to open that can of worms.
The only difference in the two is the amount of money that can be asked for one over the other. Eventually all of Florida will have "pure Osceola" turkeys.
:TooFunny: How true! I wonder what the difference in hunting fees is for the guy that has property just north of that imaginary line as compared to the guy just south of that line? The birds they are hunting are probably from the same flock, but if they cross that line, they are suddenly worth a lot more (apparently). :toothy12:
I am biased but Osceola to me is south of SR 70.
The 7th species you might be thinking of could be the BodonkaDeke. Not sure where its indigenous too though...have to ask guesswho as he's the expert ;D
One time I shot a really strange bird, had kind of a white head. I don't think he could fly.strange.
Quote from: High plains drifter on March 15, 2018, 05:03:44 PM
One time I shot a really strange bird, had kind of a white head. I don't think he could fly.strange.
Was all the foliage painted orange?
What about the "jive turkey"? Or did it go extinct in the 70's?
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Quote from: fallhnt on March 15, 2018, 08:23:24 PM
What about the "jive turkey"? Or did it go extinct in the 70's?
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They died out from slipping away to much skin.
Totally incorrect. Davis, please tell me how many Osceola Turkeys from South Florida you have personally examined?? Have you ever placed an Eastern and a South Florida Osceola side by side and compared them?
Genetically, they may be similar ( as are all turkeys) but there are differences. Stick to whatever it is you are an expert at - Osceola turkeys are not it. I would be willing to bet you have never killed a South Florida Gobbler, or even seen one, much less compared them.
Let's hear your evidence..
In fact your statement about "all Florida will eventually have Osceolas" cannot be more wrong. If anything, it will be all Easterns - if the habitat loss and rate of hybridization continues.
I would love to debate this with you.
[/quote]
The only difference in the two is the amount of money that can be asked for one over the other. Eventually all of Florida will have "pure Osceola" turkeys.
[/quote]
All I need write to prove the case is - Dr. Lovett Williams
Quote from: Sir-diealot on March 15, 2018, 02:52:16 AM
I seem to remember reading in a magazine I think Turkey and Turkey Hunter, Turkey Call or maybe Bowhunter Magazine about a 7th species of Turkey
The ones I know.
Eastern
Osceola
Rio Grande
Merriam's
Gould's
And
South Mexican wild turkey
This one I can't recall I seem to remember them talking about it living in a tropical climate and that the male birds call sounded more like that of a pecock than that a male turkey. Does anybody have any clue what I am talking about? I have not found anything online about it and it is driving me nuts because I remember reading about it. It may not have been in the United States but I am unsure of that as well. I am heading back to bed but will look back at this when I get back in the afternoon. Thanks for any help.
In addition to the six you listed, there is another one that was reported as A New Race of Wild Turkey in The Auk in 1938 as gallopavo onusta and inhabiting the western slopes of the Sierr@ Madre in Mexico. It is also known as Moore's after the leader of the expedition and author of the article in The Auk. In the article he describes differences between the birds he found and the Merriam's and Gould's turkeys and also noted it was very large bodied and the darkest of the known subspecies. I haven't found any modern mention of this bird though.
Quote from: Rapscallion Vermilion on March 16, 2018, 06:23:55 PM
Quote from: Sir-diealot on March 15, 2018, 02:52:16 AM
I seem to remember reading in a magazine I think Turkey and Turkey Hunter, Turkey Call or maybe Bowhunter Magazine about a 7th species of Turkey
The ones I know.
Eastern
Osceola
Rio Grande
Merriam's
Gould's
And
South Mexican wild turkey
This one I can't recall I seem to remember them talking about it living in a tropical climate and that the male birds call sounded more like that of a pecock than that a male turkey. Does anybody have any clue what I am talking about? I have not found anything online about it and it is driving me nuts because I remember reading about it. It may not have been in the United States but I am unsure of that as well. I am heading back to bed but will look back at this when I get back in the afternoon. Thanks for any help.
In addition to the six you listed, there is another one that was reported as A New Race of Wild Turkey in The Auk in 1938 as gallopavo onusta and inhabiting the western slopes of the Sierr@ Madre in Mexico. It is also known as Moore's after the leader of the expedition and author of the article in The Auk. In the article he describes differences between the birds he found and the Merriam's and Gould's turkeys and also noted it was very large bodied and the darkest of the known subspecies. I haven't found any modern mention of this bird though.
Thank you, I am sure we have lost lots of breeds of many animals over the years through early mismanagement/lack of management, this could be a case in point.
I am making a new category of turkey to hunt. The Northeastern Nimrod. They are characterized being seen everywhere but where you are hunting. I will be booking hunts for them for next year as you will need this new species to complete your "Slam" and complete your "manhood trial." The hunt will be $2500 for 3 days and a trophy fee of $1000 per bird harvested. That will include room and dinner as well as my guiding services. Please use SAVDUCK as a reference. He bagged a nice bird and gained 5 pounds while he was here, lol. Sorry guys, lol. I just love/hate all turkeys and every one I see, hear or harvest is a treasured memory. Good luck and God Bless , Al Baker :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
I think it was one of those Northeastern Nimrods I was hunting this year! :fud:
Quote from: nitro on March 16, 2018, 04:32:53 PM
Totally incorrect. Davis, please tell me how many Osceola Turkeys from South Florida you have personally examined?? Have you ever placed an Eastern and a South Florida Osceola side by side and compared them?
Genetically, they may be similar ( as are all turkeys) but there are differences. Stick to whatever it is you are an expert at - Osceola turkeys are not it. I would be willing to bet you have never killed a South Florida Gobbler, or even seen one, much less compared them.
Let's hear your evidence..
In an effort to clarify some of this, I think Davis was jokingly stating the obvious, as was I in my remarks. That is, drawing an arbitrary "line in the sand" to delineate subspecies is pretty silly, at least from a scientific standpoint. Diversity in a species that results in subspecies delineation is based on genetic differences that are extensive enough to cross the subspecies threshold. Those genetic differences are almost always caused by geographic barriers that prevent genetic intermixing within a species over time.
In the specific case of the Eastern and Osceola subspecies, it must be assumed that, if indeed they are truly different subspecies, that there was, as some distant time in the past, some geographic barrier that was significant enough to prevent genetic mixing of the two over time. I'm not sure it is clear that is the case. It seems quite clear, however, that whatever geographic barriers might have once existed have not been in place for quite some time. In other words, the Eastern and Osceola subspecies, if applicable, have been "mixing" with each other genetically for so long now that it would be virtually impossible to draw a line in the sand anywhere and declare that on one side is Easterns and on the other is Osceolas.
Could we state that the turkeys in far-south Florida are genetically diverse enough from those in Georgia, Virginia, or even Maine that they meet the subspecies threshold? Maybe, but that very same standard might potentially be applied to turkeys in Maine and East Texas.
In terms of visual/appearance differences, those do not a subspecies make. It is all about genetics,...and as I stated before, genetic studies done back in the 80's, as I recall, determined that the two classified subspecies (Easterns/Osceolas) were so close genetically that it was questionable that they are indeed separate subspecies. I have not kept up with that debate, however, so perhaps there have been subsequent studies that have further clarified the matter. I have just not heard of or seen them.
In terms of appearance/visual differences, separation of populations by distance, combined with subtle "mutations" of genetic material within individual populations, can result in visual traits that would lead one to believe there might be subspecific reasons for those traits. Again, that does not hold water in terms of separation of subspecies.
The fact is that there are visual differences within other subspecies that might lead one to think that there is subspecies-level variation rather than merely subspecific coloration differences. For instance, within the Merriam's subspecies,....which I am most familiar with,...there are coloration differences in various regions and populations that would rival the differences in the southernmost Osceola populations as compared to their more northern cousins.
In the meantime, the best we can do is accept the subspecies parameters that have been established, however tenuous they might be in terms of science, and go huntin'. ;D
You must have stayed at a Holiday Inn last night, North of Dade County. ;D
For those that like pictures, this is what Gobblenut is saying :toothy12:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/975/41300572995_ccc03ea496_z_d.jpg)
It means that Merriam's followed by Gould's are the purest subspecies ;D
Regardless of who may or may not be correct it is a fascinating read and shows just how passionate we can be about this creature we all love.
There is a definite difference between a florida Osceola turkey and an Eastern turkey....Osceola's generally are lighter in weight, longer in the beard and sharper in the spur but the primary wings are the most distinguishing factor..true osceolas have darker bands compared to other turkeys.
as far as the occelated goes even though they may resemble a peacock to some they are no doubt a turkey once in hand,,,
Quote from: LI Outdoorsman on May 18, 2018, 09:55:33 PM
There is a definite difference between a florida Osceola turkey and an Eastern turkey....Osceola's generally are lighter in weight, longer in the beard and sharper in the spur but the primary wings are the most distinguishing factor..true osceolas have darker bands compared to other turkeys.
as far as the occelated goes even though they may resemble a peacock to some they are no doubt a turkey once in hand,,,
They really are a neat bird (Occelated) and have some really fancy plumage.
Very interesting conversation. I'm in the camp that I don't quite buy into a subspecies distinction between the Eastern and Osceola, but I do also realize there are absolute differences between the birds I chase in Missouri and the Osceola. Kind of like the smaller bodied, dark chocolate racked bucks in South Texas compared to the midwestern Missouri .....yet both still Whitetails.
I will also throw this in to muddy up the waters further. The birds I grew up hunting in SE Louisiana have characteristics much more consistent with the Osceola than the Eastern. My brother made a trip to South Florida this year and his opinion was that they were the same bird we had back home. Heaviest bird I ever killed down there was 18 pounds. I have seen Jake's in Missouri that vxx heavy.
Back in the early 70's, pre N"WTF", I personally saw 10-15 boxes in the back of a GFWFC truck with Osceolas in them. This was in the AVPBR. The game warden told me and my Dad they were headed to Tennessee. They had traded them to TN for deer. If that's not where they were headed it's the Game Wardens lie and not mine. He also told us they traded some from Fisheating Creek in the same deal. So if that's true there were some pure strain Osceola's relocated to somewhere in TN back in the day.
Quote from: guesswho on May 19, 2018, 01:13:59 PM
Back in the early 70's, pre N"WTF", I personally saw 10-15 boxes in the back of a GFWFC truck with Osceolas in them. This was in the AVPBR. The game warden told me and my Dad they were headed to Tennessee. They had traded them to TN for deer. If that's not where they were headed it's the Game Wardens lie and not mine. He also told us they traded some from Fisheating Creek in the same deal. So if that's true there were some pure strain Osceola's relocated to somewhere in TN back in the day.
Interesting. No telling how much of that sort of thing went on prior to the explosion of interest in wild turkey management in the 60's/70's. ...Could also explain why the genetic studies have come up with the results they have. Depending on where they got their "samples", they could have been comparing hybrid birds all along. Based on that graph that Mike (rapscallion vermillion) put up, there are obviously a bunch of "lineages" of wild turkeys going in all directions.
Quote from: guesswho on May 18, 2018, 08:01:50 PM
You must have stayed at a Holiday Inn last night, North of Dade County. ;D
Nah,...it was a Motel 6,...and they apparently didn't leave the lights on for me.... ;D
Quote from: LI Outdoorsman on May 18, 2018, 09:55:33 PM
There is a definite difference between a florida Osceola turkey and an Eastern turkey....Osceola's generally are lighter in weight, longer in the beard and sharper in the spur but the primary wings are the most distinguishing factor..true osceolas have darker bands compared to other turkeys.
as far as the occelated goes even though they may resemble a peacock to some they are no doubt a turkey once in hand,,,
Younger seen an eastern from south Georgia, Alabama, and Louisiana? 90% of them have the characteristics you just described, especially the dark wings
I like hunting turkeys and love to go learn and see new places. Sometimes the turkeys look a bit different in those places but I don't really care about their subspecies or a slam
There was so much relocation years back and now with populations spread to the far reaches of their habitat Types massive hybridization the lines and distinctions need pretty much based on looks of each individual bird.
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