I'm new to turkey hunting and have been practicing (a lot) on my box and pot calls for several months, and feel pretty ready to take them for my first hunt. When the tom closes in, I want to be able to make as little movement as possible, therefore learning how to call with a diaphragm is crucial to me.
I bought the Primos Learning the Art that comes with 3 calls and the instructional CD. I read alot of tips and watched a lot of videos on how to use them. I must have a narrow palate because no matter how far back I move the calls, they are overlapping my molars and just don't feel snug against the roof of my mouth. It just doesn't go from that high to low pitch yelp. It makes a really ugly screech. At the end of a practice session I feel like a hopeless, slobbering idiot.
What am I doing wrong? Am I just screwed with the anatomy of my palate?
Any help would be greatly appreciated, Al
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They make calls that are smaller for narrow mouths. You can also trim the tape with scissors. Practice making the separate tones, especially the high pitch, before you try a whole yelp.
One thing I noticed, you mentioned you want to be hands free in your calling when the tom is closing in. While a lot of people do like this advantage, you are probably better off being silent when a bird is already coming. If you keep calling to him, he's more likely to stop and strut and gobble out of range because he thinks you're coming to him (the way it usually works in the wild). So once you have a bird coming in, lay down your calls and be patient.
Good luck
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Use a plain double reed only when you start out. This will help capture the most air. RELAX.... don't muscle the call to the roof of your mouth and jam your toung to it.. nice soft clucks and soft yelps when you start out. Check out you tube,you'll find something there to help.
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First, if you feel like the calls you are using are too big, go to a smaller frame call. They make both adult small frame calls and youth frame calls. Try those.
Secondly, make sure you are starting off with the right kind of call in terms of reeds and cuts. Most people are able to learn more easily on thin-reed call designs rather than with thick-reed calls. From my experience, two-reed calls are also easier for most folks than most others. If I was to recommend one call design for beginners, it would be a two-reed call constructed of thinner material, and with either a simple center V-cut or perhaps a "combo cut". However, everyone has to determine what call design works best for them.
Finally and most important, for most people, learning to use mouth calls takes some time,...and sometimes quite a bit of time. Patience, persistence, and determination to learn are required. Just keep working at it until you begin to get a feel for how to produce sounds with the call. After that, it is simply a matter of refining your technique and mechanics to control the sounds you can make.
Like others have said, try a smaller framed call and don't get fancy. A simple double reed call is great to learn on. Try a Primos Limbhanger, not a small framed call but smaller than some production calls. Blows real easy. Good luck!
First off, Be Patient. Don't get frustrated. You can Master this. As others have said a smaller taped call will be your best friend. Hooks makes their calls with smaller tape. I would call Scott Hooks and explain to him what problems you are having and he'll help you. He will probably recommend the Deceiver. This call is a split V with two thin prophylactic reeds that is easy to run. I'm not sure what you are doing when you call but you aren't actually blowing the call. You should be tightening your stomach muscles and bringing short bursts of air from your diaphragm. Don't slam the call to the roof of your mouth with your tongue, just give it enough pressure with the tongue to hold it up against the roof of the mouth and let short bursts of air to come from the diaphragm and ride over the tongue. If you have used a duck call, it's very similar. Good Luck and Don't get Discouraged.
All good advice. Mouth calls take time. A few months may not be enough. Most guys I know including myself didn't feel proficient for years. There's more information available now but keep trying n don't get discouraged. Is the metal frame overlapping or just the tape?
Agree with all said...
Let's go back to the "overlapping my molars". The call should fit between your teeth to the point where there is no contact. Tape that is too large will prevent a proper seal. If after trying the call for a period of time, your tape has folds or large creases in it - it's probably too much.
The tape helps create that seal to give you "clean air" under the call and over your tongue. Without that - you get the "barking seal" sound. Some guys prefer as much tape as tolerable, others will run a call with next to no tape.
If you do trim, try to maintain the original shape a trim sparingly & evenly. Once you cross the line of too small - you can't go back with that call (without new tape).
Get the right fit, and play around with making all sorts of sounds.
Good luck! You'll get it... :icon_thumright:
Great photo right here ^^
Everyone has given some good advice...
As a die-hard duck hunter, being familiar with calling and calls, turkey calls were easy for me to pick up on... That is until I tried a diaphragm call. That is the single most difficult call I have ever tried to learn.
Calls did not feel comfortable in my mouth (I always felt that same discomfort as at the dentist when taking X-rays), and the calls were truly "tongue-ticklers" for me... Then, for me, it just clicked.
I would call up a call maker such as Hooks, or Gooserbat, and have them send you a recommended beginning call (both of them make a smaller-framed call that fits better in my small palate). I would guess that either one of them could make you a thinner-reed frame that would be easier to learn on and fit in your mouth.
I believe that everyone can learn these calls with some persistence if the motivation is there.
I can't believe what a great, knowledgeable community is on here. Thank you all very much, I didn't realize they came with smaller framed calls as well as the concept of trimming them up bit by bit. I will definitely keep practicing and look for the suggested smaller - framed calls as the calls I currently have are too large (frame).
Thank you again very much. I will keep you posted on what I ended up getting and maybe try to post a sound bite. "Barking seal" is the best way to describe what I'm achieving at this point.
I'm in the same boat. I seem to have a really narrow pallette or something myself and could never get a call to comfortably fit. On top of that, I get a really bad gag reflex that also prevents me from using one and I've tried everything to get past that.
One thing most of us have failed to tell you is once you get a call that will fit you whether it's a call you buy off the shelf or one that you trim to fit, use that call as a template for all future calls. Keep after it and Good Luck.
Quote from: thunderbirder on April 04, 2017, 01:36:41 PM
I can't believe what a great, knowledgeable community is on here. Thank you all very much, I didn't realize they came with smaller framed calls as well as the concept of trimming them up bit by bit. I will definitely keep practicing and look for the suggested smaller - framed calls as the calls I currently have are too large (frame).
Thank you again very much. I will keep you posted on what I ended up getting and maybe try to post a sound bite. "Barking seal" is the best way to describe what I'm achieving at this point.
Google Hooks custom calls, they make top notch calls with small tape and even with small tape and small frames that are as cheap as the calls you will find at Wal-mart but much better quality.
When I was learning finding hooks was a huge improvement they just fit better and were easier to run once I got comfortable I can run about any call but I still trim my tape somewhere between standard and what hooks does.
I wish I could buy pack of mouth calls for every turkey hunter in my state....the very best Turkey conservation tool ever invented.It takes a lot of practice to become proficient and most people don't want to put in the time so there's guys that are really good and the rest sound like a choking buzzard.
Quote from: thunderbirder on April 04, 2017, 01:36:41 PM
"Barking seal" is the best way to describe what I'm achieving at this point.
In my experience, the "barking seal" affect is generally caused by trying to use a call that is constructed with heavier latex materials,...and often times a call that has a cut design that does not "fit" the users experience level and his ability to control air flow with a mouth call.
Again, in my opinion, beginners and less-experienced mouth call users should stick with calls constructed with thin-reed materials. One of the surest ways to get discouraged trying to learn to use mouth calls is to start out with a call that is made for more advanced level callers that have mastered the mechanics of air-flow control.
A year or so ago I reached out to Scott Hook and I'm glad I did. I tried many different mouth calls and just couldn't get the sounds I was looking for. He recommended the Game Changer 2 and the Persuader to start with. I ordered them and also picked up the Executioner. I bet I tried 25 to 30 different mouth calls previously, but when I tried his the turkey sounds I was looking for finally came out.
Learning to use a diaphragm can be difficult. It takes a lot of practice. Please don't give up because I believe everyone can learn to use one, especially if I can. If you have a long commute to work like me, practice on the way to work or on the way home. Certainly helps to keep peace in the house and not drive the wife crazy.
Good luck!
most calls have an aluminum frame you can bend to make fit your mouth better as well as trimming, just be careful not to bend too much, you will lose tension on the reeds.
I've always hated those guys that can throw in any call and sound like a champion caller, I fall into the SUCK CALLER category. I like a not too large metal frame and I trim the tape in the back. Go slow on the scissors do a little at a time and when you get it to sound right save it for a pattern for next time. I found a call that fit me PERFECT and it was a local guy but then he quit making them UGH! Gooserbat for me right now call them or email, I'm sure they deal with it all the time should set you up. GOODLUCK
You guys are great motivators and have given me some excellent information.
Thank you all VERY much!
All the information about call fit and thinner reeds was perfect. I would like to add is once you get that call filling better and more comfortable you need to get a good audio tape or CD on how to call. I learn from a old cassette tape of Wil Primos and BoB Dixon. It really helped me take my calling to the next level. Also the Scott Ellis DVD's are still teaching me more too. There are lots of how call on a mouth call out there. There are many you tube videos too on how to call on a mouth call. Good Luck
Get ahold of hooks which has already been suggested. Next, order mouth call magic vol I&II from Scott Ellis. Can't go wrong. His videos are great. You'll learn a lot.
Quote from: ncwoodsman on April 05, 2017, 09:30:17 AM
A year or so ago I reached out to Scott Hook and I'm glad I did. I tried many different mouth calls and just couldn't get the sounds I was looking for. He recommended the Game Changer 2 and the Persuader to start with. I ordered them and also picked up the Executioner. I bet I tried 25 to 30 different mouth calls previously, but when I tried his the turkey sounds I was looking for finally came out.
Learning to use a diaphragm can be difficult. It takes a lot of practice. Please don't give up because I believe everyone can learn to use one, especially if I can. If you have a long commute to work like me, practice on the way to work or on the way home. Certainly helps to keep peace in the house and not drive the wife crazy.
Good luck!
Couldn't agree with this more. Scott is great and I've had good success with Hooks calls in general. Top notch.
I bought a cheap voice recorder off of ebay and started recording myself using a call. It was hard for me to really know what I sounded like until then. I could also hear my progression in sound quality as it also records the date on the sound file. I have been at it for several months now and things are finally starting to click. It helped me to use a simple twin reed call made of prophylactic. Prophylactic does not stick making call maintenance very easy. Start out with soft calling first. Practice soft yelps and clucks with as little air as possible. After you can get good consistent double note yelps over and over with little thought, then you can start learning to use whichever cut call is best suited for you. The voice recorder has been the best money I have spent so far in my process to learn mouth calls. Scott Ellis DVD's are good and I also really like the Chris Kirby DVD that comes with the two turkey thug mouth calls. You can get the two calls and Kirby DVD for less than $10 shipped on Ebay and its worth the investment. Hope this helps, I am still learning myself.
Here is a great way learn. The kit includes Hooks calls, and a very good instructional on how to fit a call, what call you made need, and how to use them. Everything in one kit. Good luck and keep at it
http://www.callingallturkeys.com/_p/prd6/1612024285/product/%22mouth-call-mechanics%22-kit
Another thing I read on here that really helped me as someone who really struggled with gagging on the calls was just trying to keep them in your mouth as much as you can. I kept mine in my cheek, between my teeth/lips, anywhere to just get used to something being in my mouth so much. It's not good for keeping the calls in top condition, but it did help me get over the gagging. As previously trimming the calls a 1/16th at a time really helps too. When it fits right it makes you wonder how you ever kept that thing in your mouth before trimming. Determination is also a big key. You will get it.
Quote from: Phillipshunt on April 04, 2017, 03:39:19 PM
I wish I could buy pack of mouth calls for every turkey hunter in my state....the very best Turkey conservation tool ever invented.It takes a lot of practice to become proficient and most people don't want to put in the time so there's guys that are really good and the rest sound like a choking buzzard.
:TooFunny: This comment deserves more consideration in this discussion. I largely agree with it. Too often it seems, there is this mental attitude of us turkey hunters that learning to use a mouth call is a necessity in becoming a great turkey hunter. That is probably fostered by the fact that turkey calling contests always feature the guys that can run a mouth call flawlessly. Everybody thinks they can, and must, achieve that skill level with a mouth call.
The fact is that 99% of us are not capable of that kind of skill with a mouth call. The fact is, however, that friction calls (boxes, pots) have been perfected in the last couple of decades to a degree that most anybody can pick one up and make great "turkey sounds" with very little practice.
The point of the above commentary is that new hunters should not get fixated on the notion that they need to learn to run a mouth call. It is absolutely not necessary,...and in many cases, it may be counterproductive to success. For sure, there will be times when knowing how to make accurate sounds with a mouth call will be an advantage, but don't become obsessed with trying to use one.
And finally, here is another point: Sometimes gobblers prefer to come to the sound of a "choking buzzard" more than that of the perfect, sexy-hen sound. I have seen it happen many, many times. When hunting, you want to find the sound that the gobbler you are calling to likes, not the sound that YOU think he should like.
Quote from: GobbleNut on April 06, 2017, 09:15:22 AM
Quote from: Phillipshunt on April 04, 2017, 03:39:19 PM
I wish I could buy pack of mouth calls for every turkey hunter in my state....the very best Turkey conservation tool ever invented.It takes a lot of practice to become proficient and most people don't want to put in the time so there's guys that are really good and the rest sound like a choking buzzard.
:TooFunny: This comment deserves more consideration in this discussion. I largely agree with it. Too often it seems, there is this mental attitude of us turkey hunters that learning to use a mouth call is a necessity in becoming a great turkey hunter. That is probably fostered by the fact that turkey calling contests always feature the guys that can run a mouth call flawlessly. Everybody thinks they can, and must, achieve that skill level with a mouth call.
The fact is that 99% of us are not capable of that kind of skill with a mouth call. The fact is, however, that friction calls (boxes, pots) have been perfected in the last couple of decades to a degree that most anybody can pick one up and make great "turkey sounds" with very little practice.
The point of the above commentary is that new hunters should not get fixated on the notion that they need to learn to run a mouth call. It is absolutely not necessary,...and in many cases, it may be counterproductive to success. For sure, there will be times when knowing how to make accurate sounds with a mouth call will be an advantage, but don't become obsessed with trying to use one.
And finally, here is another point: Sometimes gobblers prefer to come to the sound of a "choking buzzard" more than that of the perfect, sexy-hen sound. I have seen it happen many, many times. When hunting, you want to find the sound that the gobbler you are calling to likes, not the sound that YOU think he should like.
Thank you, makes total sense. I will focus on the calls I'm good with and hope to get my hands on some of the mouth calls suggested here. I have the Woodhaven Real Hen box call and the Halloran Crystal Mistress (thanks to this forum), and I really feel like I'm getting the right sounds with them, but like you said, you've got to take the turkeys' temperature and see how they sound in the woods and what they respond to. Thats some really good advice, I appreciate it.
I have a narrow pallet, also. Called Scott Hooks last year and talked to him. He sent me some calls that greatly improved my calling.