I see it a bunch on forums, Facebook, and magazines. "Ban this product!!!" or "ban that style of hunting!!!"
Am I the only one that is such a strict conservative (politically speaking) that I feel that following current laws is enough?
Don't get me wrong, if there were say a brand new, "Turkey Killa Thrilla" decoy that would coax a turkey half a mile through downtown New York into my lap, by all means.......BUT I want to see documented evidence, proven by multiple state agencies/third party assistance (this is a must), and sources for the public to view this evidence, WITH public input prior to the ban taking place.
Am I the only person that does not trust our government to handle these issues?
I honestly don't trust the government to do jack for me or my best intrest.
I don't trust the hunting industry not to exploit wildlife for profit and develop products that facilitate higher levels of success with no sense of stewardship or concern as to what is actually best for the resource.
Reaping is as close to a 100% tactic as you will find in any form of hunting. I'd throw a party and invite everyone from this forum if they made it illegal nationwide.
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on April 15, 2016, 02:26:41 PM
I don't trust the hunting industry not to exploit wildlife for profit and develop products that facilitate higher levels of success with no sense of stewardship or concern as to what is actually best for the resource.
Reaping is as close to a 100% tactic as you will find in any form of hunting. I'd throw a party and invite everyone from this forum if they made it illegal nationwide.
:agreed: Profit is the mother of invention. Granted, I think advancement is good - in most cases (i.e. Thermacell), but at some point WE have to establish boundaries, along with wildlife agencies. Hunters have been trying new gadgets and gizmos since the first Indian fastened together some wing bones and sucked on it; but remote control this, or heat-seeking laser guided that - we should be cautious.
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
I see it a bunch on forums, Facebook, and magazines. "Ban this product!!!" or "ban that style of hunting!!!"
Am I the only one that is such a strict conservative (politically speaking) that I feel that following current laws is enough?
Don't get me wrong, if there were say a brand new, "Turkey Killa Thrilla" decoy that would coax a turkey half a mile through downtown New York into my lap, by all means.......BUT I want to see documented evidence, proven by multiple state agencies/third party assistance (this is a must), and sources for the public to view this evidence, WITH public input prior to the ban taking place.
Am I the only person that does not trust our government to handle these issues?
You sound more Libertarian! :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
How others hunt is none of my business as long as it doesn't affect me. If a product or technique appears to possibly tilt the scale to additive mortality, it becomes my business. If that happens, I would prefer to outlaw the product /technique before restricting opportunity.
Quote from: g8rvet on April 15, 2016, 02:46:39 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
I see it a bunch on forums, Facebook, and magazines. "Ban this product!!!" or "ban that style of hunting!!!"
Am I the only one that is such a strict conservative (politically speaking) that I feel that following current laws is enough?
Don't get me wrong, if there were say a brand new, "Turkey Killa Thrilla" decoy that would coax a turkey half a mile through downtown New York into my lap, by all means.......BUT I want to see documented evidence, proven by multiple state agencies/third party assistance (this is a must), and sources for the public to view this evidence, WITH public input prior to the ban taking place.
Am I the only person that does not trust our government to handle these issues?
You sound more Libertarian! :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Your definition of liberal and conservative is much different than mine. LoL
Quote from: Bill Cooksey on April 15, 2016, 02:54:59 PM
How others hunt is none of my business as long as it doesn't affect me. If a product or technique appears to possibly tilt the scale to additive mortality, it becomes my business. If that happens, I would prefer to outlaw the product /technique before restricting opportunity.
My point is that there must be evidence and not just hear-say.
From what everyone on here has said so far, there is about a 50/50 shot with most of the controversial products. Now, is that enough to sway the population to the point of a decline....I HIGHLY doubt it.
I am Conservative. I do not get on the band wagon of banning anything. I believe in simply not supporting it. Free market practices will kill it eventually. I believe that if enough people stand together in non-support, you get the best results.
Example: a strip club wanted to open here in our town. People fought it but couldnt stop it. They were granted a license and opened. Nobody supported it, it lasted a while, was crappy to start with and promptly went out of business...mission accomplished.
2015 Old Gobbler contest Champions
I can't say as I agree with it as far as hunting goes. We should all be adult enough to throttle back on our own and be good stewards of our resources but for the most part we are not. We have to many people looking for the quickest, easiest way to kill things no matter what. Unfortunately marketing realizes this and fuels it even more. It's been that way throughout history not just present day. Money drives it all. From buffalo hides to all the hunting toys we have today. Money coupled with a desire to get what we want at all costs as long as it doesn't involve any work on our end. It's not just hunting, it is society in general. Sad.
Happy makes a good point ^^^^
Hunters have always questioned what the next guy might be using, or how they're using it. We all have to limit our shotguns to 3 rounds for the majority of the game we hunt because of market hunters killing ducks in the early 1900's (not to mention the double-barrel clan cried foul). Does a shotgun REALLY need to be plugged today? Why? The amount of game harvested is dictated by bag limits. Period. You can kill 6 ducks per day, one turkey (usually), etc. The outlaw is going to kill more than allowed regardless if his gun holds 1, 2, 3, or 5 shells. The ethical, law-abiding hunter will not.
We need to police ourselves, in order to preserve the integrity of the sport. That's where it becomes all gray & cloudy. Each has their own view of what should or should not be allowed.
Like the government or not, we don't have many other options to regulate and manage OUR wildlife in this country. The whole concept of allowing anyone, anytime, to kill anything - but "please stop" when you think you've reached your "limit", does not sound like the best of ideas to me.
Hunt as you want and don't judge others. Use whatever means you think you have to, that decision is up to you and you only. If a person wants to play with the greatest latest turkey hunting equipment again that up to him and his pocket book...i do agree we need to protect the integrity of the sport...
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
I see it a bunch on forums, Facebook, and magazines. "Ban this product!!!" or "ban that style of hunting!!!"
Am I the only one that is such a strict conservative (politically speaking) that I feel that following current laws is enough?
Don't get me wrong, if there were say a brand new, "Turkey Killa Thrilla" decoy that would coax a turkey half a mile through downtown New York into my lap, by all means.......BUT I want to see documented evidence, proven by multiple state agencies/third party assistance (this is a must), and sources for the public to view this evidence, WITH public input prior to the ban taking place.
Am I the only person that does not trust our government to handle these issues?
I agree 100%. A few years ago PA made crossbows legal and everybody seemed to think that the deer herd would be destroyed in a year or two. Didn't happen. Every time something new comes along the people who chose not to use it want to oppose it. Traditional archers hated compound bows when they first came out. Compound shooters hate crossbows. Traditional black powder guys hate inlines. ( realize not everyone in these groups oppose the others, just making examples). Each of the older style groups think or thought that the new style would ruin their hunting. It's just human , and hunting, nature to press our beliefs and thinking on others and to consider our own ideas and "ethics" to be the right ones.
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: g8rvet on April 15, 2016, 02:46:39 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
I see it a bunch on forums, Facebook, and magazines. "Ban this product!!!" or "ban that style of hunting!!!"
Am I the only one that is such a strict conservative (politically speaking) that I feel that following current laws is enough?
Don't get me wrong, if there were say a brand new, "Turkey Killa Thrilla" decoy that would coax a turkey half a mile through downtown New York into my lap, by all means.......BUT I want to see documented evidence, proven by multiple state agencies/third party assistance (this is a must), and sources for the public to view this evidence, WITH public input prior to the ban taking place.
Am I the only person that does not trust our government to handle these issues?
You sound more Libertarian! :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Your definition of liberal and conservative is much different than mine. LoL
Libertarians are nothing like a liberal!
Quote from: albrubacker on April 15, 2016, 04:30:07 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: g8rvet on April 15, 2016, 02:46:39 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
I see it a bunch on forums, Facebook, and magazines. "Ban this product!!!" or "ban that style of hunting!!!"
Am I the only one that is such a strict conservative (politically speaking) that I feel that following current laws is enough?
Don't get me wrong, if there were say a brand new, "Turkey Killa Thrilla" decoy that would coax a turkey half a mile through downtown New York into my lap, by all means.......BUT I want to see documented evidence, proven by multiple state agencies/third party assistance (this is a must), and sources for the public to view this evidence, WITH public input prior to the ban taking place.
Am I the only person that does not trust our government to handle these issues?
You sound more Libertarian! :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Your definition of liberal and conservative is much different than mine. LoL
Libertarians are nothing like a liberal!
I cover all spectrums to an extent, but that's another conversation that will not be done on social media. Lol
Happy hit on something that I was afraid would happen. I do think the restrictions, at least here in AR are good as is...with the exception of the season dates. With that said, I am saying that killing with no guidelines is bad. Baiting, night hunting, killing hens, etc. have been proven to dwindle a flock to the point of 0% chance of rebounding. Those laws are needed and have proof the back them up. Reaping, fanning, decoys, calls, shotguns that shoot 40+ yards DO NOT.
So, without evidence, there should be no banning of said methods. If they can prove that without a doubt any of those, or other, styles of hunting can diminish a flock to a point of no return...then outlaw it.
Libertarians say about the gubment "Leave me alone". Not a slam at you at all. Hope you did not take it that way. Libertarians are definitely on the right of the political spectrum.
A libertarian says if I don't want a seat belt and it hurts no one else, the government has no right to make me wear one. Just an example.
We just have to be sure that any method or gadget is not so effective as to affect population health.
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 04:45:26 PM
Quote from: albrubacker on April 15, 2016, 04:30:07 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: g8rvet on April 15, 2016, 02:46:39 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
I see it a bunch on forums, Facebook, and magazines. "Ban this product!!!" or "ban that style of hunting!!!"
Am I the only one that is such a strict conservative (politically speaking) that I feel that following current laws is enough?
Don't get me wrong, if there were say a brand new, "Turkey Killa Thrilla" decoy that would coax a turkey half a mile through downtown New York into my lap, by all means.......BUT I want to see documented evidence, proven by multiple state agencies/third party assistance (this is a must), and sources for the public to view this evidence, WITH public input prior to the ban taking place.
Am I the only person that does not trust our government to handle these issues?
You sound more Libertarian! :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Your definition of liberal and conservative is much different than mine. LoL
Libertarians are nothing like a liberal!
I cover all spectrums to an extent, but that's another conversation that will not be done on social media. Lol
Happy hit on something that I was afraid would happen. I do think the restrictions, at least here in AR are good as is...with the exception of the season dates. With that said, I am saying that killing with no guidelines is bad. Baiting, night hunting, killing hens, etc. have been proven to dwindle a flock to the point of 0% chance of rebounding. Those laws are needed and have proof the back them up. Reaping, fanning, decoys, calls, shotguns that shoot 40+ yards DO NOT.
So, without evidence, there should be no banning of said methods. If they can prove that without a doubt any of those, or other, styles of hunting can diminish a flock to a point of no return...then outlaw it.
I'm not convinced that baiting should be outlawed. It's being done on deer, why not turkey?
Quote from: C. Brumfiel on April 15, 2016, 05:07:33 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 04:45:26 PM
Quote from: albrubacker on April 15, 2016, 04:30:07 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: g8rvet on April 15, 2016, 02:46:39 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
I see it a bunch on forums, Facebook, and magazines. "Ban this product!!!" or "ban that style of hunting!!!"
Am I the only one that is such a strict conservative (politically speaking) that I feel that following current laws is enough?
Don't get me wrong, if there were say a brand new, "Turkey Killa Thrilla" decoy that would coax a turkey half a mile through downtown New York into my lap, by all means.......BUT I want to see documented evidence, proven by multiple state agencies/third party assistance (this is a must), and sources for the public to view this evidence, WITH public input prior to the ban taking place.
Am I the only person that does not trust our government to handle these issues?
You sound more Libertarian! :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Your definition of liberal and conservative is much different than mine. LoL
Libertarians are nothing like a liberal!
I cover all spectrums to an extent, but that's another conversation that will not be done on social media. Lol
Happy hit on something that I was afraid would happen. I do think the restrictions, at least here in AR are good as is...with the exception of the season dates. With that said, I am saying that killing with no guidelines is bad. Baiting, night hunting, killing hens, etc. have been proven to dwindle a flock to the point of 0% chance of rebounding. Those laws are needed and have proof the back them up. Reaping, fanning, decoys, calls, shotguns that shoot 40+ yards DO NOT.
So, without evidence, there should be no banning of said methods. If they can prove that without a doubt any of those, or other, styles of hunting can diminish a flock to a point of no return...then outlaw it.
I'm not convinced that baiting should be outlawed. It's being done on deer, why not turkey?
You, sir, aren't a turkey hunter if you'd even entertain asking that question.
Firstly, corn can be disastrous for turkeys when it becomes exposed to moisture and grows harmful bacteria.
Secondly, corn is like crack cocaine for turkeys. We have a brain, 10 fingers, 10 toes, guns, shells, camo, calls, and decoys. How much easier does it need to be to kill a turkey? The commercialization of hunting has finally caught up to turkey hunting. The sacredness and art of it is being lost in favor of gadgets, gimmicks, and pansies who want to throw the grand bird over there shoulders without having earned the right to kill one.
QuoteFirstly, corn can be disastrous for turkeys when it becomes exposed to moisture and grows harmful bacteria.
Pretty sure you are talking about MOLD that grows aphlatoxins. Even low levels can affect brood success (Really tough on poults) and cause liver issues. High doses are quick killers.
Quote from: SteelerFan on April 15, 2016, 03:59:20 PM
We all have to limit our shotguns to 3 rounds for the majority of the game we hunt because of market hunters killing ducks in the early 1900's (not to mention the double-barrel clan cried foul). Does a shotgun REALLY need to be plugged today? Why? The amount of game harvested is dictated by bag limits. Period. You can kill 6 ducks per day, one turkey (usually), etc. The outlaw is going to kill more than allowed regardless if his gun holds 1, 2, 3, or 5 shells. The ethical, law-abiding hunter will not.
Since you keyed on waterfowl, and that's where many of these regulations began, you are mistaken in your thoughts on limits. The average hunter rarely kills a limit. It's there to keep people from killing more on those good days where it all comes together. Basically, the laws on plugs, baiting, etc. are there to make killing a limit more difficult. If one season, duck hunters all killed a limit of six on every hunt, the seasons and limits would have to be slashed. All those regulations work together to regulate the total annual kill and keep it in the compensatory category. In fact, if hunters started just killing, on average, one more duck per hunt, we would soon the season and limit would have to be cut in short order. Daily limits are only a small piece in the puzzle.
Considering the number of times I, and others I know, have thrown another shell in after emptying the magazine and killed a fourth duck from a flock, I can well imagine how many slow 2-3 duck days would have ended with a much fuller strap.
Quote from: C. Brumfiel on April 15, 2016, 05:07:33 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 04:45:26 PM
Quote from: albrubacker on April 15, 2016, 04:30:07 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: g8rvet on April 15, 2016, 02:46:39 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
I see it a bunch on forums, Facebook, and magazines. "Ban this product!!!" or "ban that style of hunting!!!"
Am I the only one that is such a strict conservative (politically speaking) that I feel that following current laws is enough?
Don't get me wrong, if there were say a brand new, "Turkey Killa Thrilla" decoy that would coax a turkey half a mile through downtown New York into my lap, by all means.......BUT I want to see documented evidence, proven by multiple state agencies/third party assistance (this is a must), and sources for the public to view this evidence, WITH public input prior to the ban taking place.
Am I the only person that does not trust our government to handle these issues?
You sound more Libertarian! :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Your definition of liberal and conservative is much different than mine. LoL
Libertarians are nothing like a liberal!
I cover all spectrums to an extent, but that's another conversation that will not be done on social media. Lol
Happy hit on something that I was afraid would happen. I do think the restrictions, at least here in AR are good as is...with the exception of the season dates. With that said, I am saying that killing with no guidelines is bad. Baiting, night hunting, killing hens, etc. have been proven to dwindle a flock to the point of 0% chance of rebounding. Those laws are needed and have proof the back them up. Reaping, fanning, decoys, calls, shotguns that shoot 40+ yards DO NOT.
So, without evidence, there should be no banning of said methods. If they can prove that without a doubt any of those, or other, styles of hunting can diminish a flock to a point of no return...then outlaw it.
I'm not convinced that baiting should be outlawed. It's being done on deer, why not turkey?
Hmmmmm....apples and oranges.
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on April 15, 2016, 06:45:37 PM
Quote from: C. Brumfiel on April 15, 2016, 05:07:33 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 04:45:26 PM
Quote from: albrubacker on April 15, 2016, 04:30:07 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: g8rvet on April 15, 2016, 02:46:39 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
I see it a bunch on forums, Facebook, and magazines. "Ban this product!!!" or "ban that style of hunting!!!"
Am I the only one that is such a strict conservative (politically speaking) that I feel that following current laws is enough?
Don't get me wrong, if there were say a brand new, "Turkey Killa Thrilla" decoy that would coax a turkey half a mile through downtown New York into my lap, by all means.......BUT I want to see documented evidence, proven by multiple state agencies/third party assistance (this is a must), and sources for the public to view this evidence, WITH public input prior to the ban taking place.
Am I the only person that does not trust our government to handle these issues?
You sound more Libertarian! :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Your definition of liberal and conservative is much different than mine. LoL
Libertarians are nothing like a liberal!
I cover all spectrums to an extent, but that's another conversation that will not be done on social media. Lol
Happy hit on something that I was afraid would happen. I do think the restrictions, at least here in AR are good as is...with the exception of the season dates. With that said, I am saying that killing with no guidelines is bad. Baiting, night hunting, killing hens, etc. have been proven to dwindle a flock to the point of 0% chance of rebounding. Those laws are needed and have proof the back them up. Reaping, fanning, decoys, calls, shotguns that shoot 40+ yards DO NOT.
So, without evidence, there should be no banning of said methods. If they can prove that without a doubt any of those, or other, styles of hunting can diminish a flock to a point of no return...then outlaw it.
I'm not convinced that baiting should be outlawed. It's being done on deer, why not turkey?
You, sir, aren't a turkey hunter if you'd even entertain asking that question.
Firstly, corn can be disastrous for turkeys when it becomes exposed to moisture and grows harmful bacteria.
Secondly, corn is like crack cocaine for turkeys. We have a brain, 10 fingers, 10 toes, guns, shells, camo, calls, and decoys. How much easier does it need to be to kill a turkey? The commercialization of hunting has finally caught up to turkey hunting. The sacredness and art of it is being lost in favor of gadgets, gimmicks, and pansies who want to throw the grand bird over there shoulders without having earned the right to kill one.
I concur with the majority of this. Lots of spur necklaces and hats in this world that were not earned.
Quote from: Bill Cooksey on April 15, 2016, 06:53:09 PM
Quote from: SteelerFan on April 15, 2016, 03:59:20 PM
We all have to limit our shotguns to 3 rounds for the majority of the game we hunt because of market hunters killing ducks in the early 1900's (not to mention the double-barrel clan cried foul). Does a shotgun REALLY need to be plugged today? Why? The amount of game harvested is dictated by bag limits. Period. You can kill 6 ducks per day, one turkey (usually), etc. The outlaw is going to kill more than allowed regardless if his gun holds 1, 2, 3, or 5 shells. The ethical, law-abiding hunter will not.
Since you keyed on waterfowl, and that's where many of these regulations began, you are mistaken in your thoughts on limits. The average hunter rarely kills a limit. It's there to keep people from killing more on those good days where it all comes together. Basically, the laws on plugs, baiting, etc. are there to make killing a limit more difficult. If one season, duck hunters all killed a limit of six on every hunt, the seasons and limits would have to be slashed. All those regulations work together to regulate the total annual kill and keep it in the compensatory category. In fact, if hunters started just killing, on average, one more duck per hunt, we would soon the season and limit would have to be cut in short order. Daily limits are only a small piece in the puzzle.
Considering the number of times I, and others I know, have thrown another shell in after emptying the magazine and killed a fourth duck from a flock, I can well imagine how many slow 2-3 duck days would have ended with a much fuller strap.
I'll have to agree to disagree with you on this theory. Daily limits are set with the notion that each hunter just might limit out on each hunt. By your calculations, they could raise the daily bag limit to 10 ducks, as long as you used single-shot guns? A slow day in the blind is a slow day. A great day could be a limit in the first hour...or someone that hunts all day to kill 6. Six dead ducks are six dead ducks.
I will agree with you that hunter efficiency / success is definitely a consideration when establishing daily bag limits and season lengths.
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on April 15, 2016, 02:26:41 PM
I don't trust the hunting industry not to exploit wildlife for profit and develop products that facilitate higher levels of success with no sense of stewardship or concern as to what is actually best for the resource.
Reaping is as close to a 100% tactic as you will find in any form of hunting. I'd throw a party and invite everyone from this forum if they made it illegal nationwide.
Why are all you people so up tight about reaping! Who gives a rats azz how someone tags their birds. If they was using it to go over limits then fine but why do you care if he reaps his and is DONE for the season! So the same guy fills his tags by calling in birds and that some how magically does not take the exact same number of birds from the flock? No matter what way someone chooses to kill them they can still only legally kill the limit which has nothing to do with the style or weapon chosen and still only takes the same number of birds.
As I posted on a similar thread, I think as hunters, we have to be stewards of the sport (both in regulations and habitat)...
Personally, I feel all electronics (calls and decoys) should not be allowed for waterfowl or turkey hunting... If some means or method ends up being overly productive, it should be evaluated as to fair-chase value and/or conservation.
I write to my elected officials as to my feelings on many subjects. I have written letters of condemnation as to electronic waterfowl decoys, and will likely write as to other subjects.
I understand that shooting a bird out of a roost is legal in some states (heck it might be here). I would adamantly oppose such practices being legal. I have seen guys shoot birds out of a roost before (poachers), and it was not difficult, ethical, or in any way, shape, or form hunting.
Other aspects of hunting (such as shooting ducks on the water or using decoys to hunt turkeys) are far more personal choices for ethics. As individuals, we do (and should) have some choices to make about the method and means to hunt. Many of my personal ethics I do not impose upon others, and they are choices I make to enrich my own personal hunting experience... Not necessarily for you or him though.
Once these laws are made, we have to live with them, and respect others who wish to utilize or not certain means available. That is not to say, that as a hunting community we should not voice our opinions as to the method and means of take, when it is obvious that such means or methods create an unfair advantage though.
Hunter mortality, with today's regulations, counts for very little in the overall death of ducks. habitat drives duck populations.
Not yo many guys are willing to craw threw wet grass thorns stones and dirt to reap a bird. Heck most guts don't get 100 yards from there atv or truck nowadays .reaping turkeys is not going to make them disappear. Should we ban atv .what next
Quote from: SteelerFan on April 15, 2016, 08:09:54 PM
Quote from: Bill Cooksey on April 15, 2016, 06:53:09 PM
Quote from: SteelerFan on April 15, 2016, 03:59:20 PM
We all have to limit our shotguns to 3 rounds for the majority of the game we hunt because of market hunters killing ducks in the early 1900's (not to mention the double-barrel clan cried foul). Does a shotgun REALLY need to be plugged today? Why? The amount of game harvested is dictated by bag limits. Period. You can kill 6 ducks per day, one turkey (usually), etc. The outlaw is going to kill more than allowed regardless if his gun holds 1, 2, 3, or 5 shells. The ethical, law-abiding hunter will not.
Since you keyed on waterfowl, and that's where many of these regulations began, you are mistaken in your thoughts on limits. The average hunter rarely kills a limit. It's there to keep people from killing more on those good days where it all comes together. Basically, the laws on plugs, baiting, etc. are there to make killing a limit more difficult. If one season, duck hunters all killed a limit of six on every hunt, the seasons and limits would have to be slashed. All those regulations work together to regulate the total annual kill and keep it in the compensatory category. In fact, if hunters started just killing, on average, one more duck per hunt, we would soon the season and limit would have to be cut in short order. Daily limits are only a small piece in the puzzle.
Considering the number of times I, and others I know, have thrown another shell in after emptying the magazine and killed a fourth duck from a flock, I can well imagine how many slow 2-3 duck days would have ended with a much fuller strap.
I'll have to agree to disagree with you on this theory. Daily limits are set with the notion that each hunter just might limit out on each hunt. By your calculations, they could raise the daily bag limit to 10 ducks, as long as you used single-shot guns? A slow day in the blind is a slow day. A great day could be a limit in the first hour...or someone that hunts all day to kill 6. Six dead ducks are six dead ducks.
I will agree with you that hunter efficiency / success is definitely a consideration when establishing daily bag limits and season lengths.
You can disagree, but any waterfowl biologist will tell you I'm right. I can give you some contacts if you wish. Just part of being in the fowl business for a long time. I don't know much about a whole lot of things, but that's something in which I'm pretty well versed. And, yes, in theory, requiring waterfowl ears to use single shots would probably allow limits and seasons to increase. I don't recall the latest numbers, but if the average duck hunter averages two ducks per hunt under current regulations but that average suddenly jumped to four, we'd have a problem. Now, the average is far less than two per day, but I hope you get what I'm saying.
Some states use a similar model to manage their own wildlife. Mine does with turkey. When the average exceeds what is anticipated, while knowing most don't kill a limit, something has to give.
Yours is a very common, and understandable, misconception.
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on April 15, 2016, 06:45:37 PM
Quote from: C. Brumfiel on April 15, 2016, 05:07:33 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 04:45:26 PM
Quote from: albrubacker on April 15, 2016, 04:30:07 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: g8rvet on April 15, 2016, 02:46:39 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
I see it a bunch on forums, Facebook, and magazines. "Ban this product!!!" or "ban that style of hunting!!!"
Am I the only one that is such a strict conservative (politically speaking) that I feel that following current laws is enough?
Don't get me wrong, if there were say a brand new, "Turkey Killa Thrilla" decoy that would coax a turkey half a mile through downtown New York into my lap, by all means.......BUT I want to see documented evidence, proven by multiple state agencies/third party assistance (this is a must), and sources for the public to view this evidence, WITH public input prior to the ban taking place.
Am I the only person that does not trust our government to handle these issues?
You sound more Libertarian! :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Your definition of liberal and conservative is much different than mine. LoL
Libertarians are nothing like a liberal!
I cover all spectrums to an extent, but that's another conversation that will not be done on social media. Lol
Happy hit on something that I was afraid would happen. I do think the restrictions, at least here in AR are good as is...with the exception of the season dates. With that said, I am saying that killing with no guidelines is bad. Baiting, night hunting, killing hens, etc. have been proven to dwindle a flock to the point of 0% chance of rebounding. Those laws are needed and have proof the back them up. Reaping, fanning, decoys, calls, shotguns that shoot 40+ yards DO NOT.
So, without evidence, there should be no banning of said methods. If they can prove that without a doubt any of those, or other, styles of hunting can diminish a flock to a point of no return...then outlaw it.
I'm not convinced that baiting should be outlawed. It's being done on deer, why not turkey?
You, sir, aren't a turkey hunter if you'd even entertain asking that question.
Firstly, corn can be disastrous for turkeys when it becomes exposed to moisture and grows harmful bacteria.
Secondly, corn is like crack cocaine for turkeys. We have a brain, 10 fingers, 10 toes, guns, shells, camo, calls, and decoys. How much easier does it need to be to kill a turkey? The commercialization of hunting has finally caught up to turkey hunting. The sacredness and art of it is being lost in favor of gadgets, gimmicks, and pansies who want to throw the grand bird over there shoulders without having earned the right to kill one.
I don't think that I would say that I am not a turkey hunter. I'm a turkey hunter who hasn't used baiting, considering that I don't, I didn't know that there were side affects that severe. How does a pile of corn affect a turkey population but a corn field doesn't?
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 07:35:01 PM
Quote from: C. Brumfiel on April 15, 2016, 05:07:33 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 04:45:26 PM
Quote from: albrubacker on April 15, 2016, 04:30:07 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: g8rvet on April 15, 2016, 02:46:39 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
I see it a bunch on forums, Facebook, and magazines. "Ban this product!!!" or "ban that style of hunting!!!"
Am I the only one that is such a strict conservative (politically speaking) that I feel that following current laws is enough?
Don't get me wrong, if there were say a brand new, "Turkey Killa Thrilla" decoy that would coax a turkey half a mile through downtown New York into my lap, by all means.......BUT I want to see documented evidence, proven by multiple state agencies/third party assistance (this is a must), and sources for the public to view this evidence, WITH public input prior to the ban taking place.
Am I the only person that does not trust our government to handle these issues?
You sound more Libertarian! :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Your definition of liberal and conservative is much different than mine. LoL
Libertarians are nothing like a liberal!
I cover all spectrums to an extent, but that's another conversation that will not be done on social media. Lol
Happy hit on something that I was afraid would happen. I do think the restrictions, at least here in AR are good as is...with the exception of the season dates. With that said, I am saying that killing with no guidelines is bad. Baiting, night hunting, killing hens, etc. have been proven to dwindle a flock to the point of 0% chance of rebounding. Those laws are needed and have proof the back them up. Reaping, fanning, decoys, calls, shotguns that shoot 40+ yards DO NOT.
So, without evidence, there should be no banning of said methods. If they can prove that without a doubt any of those, or other, styles of hunting can diminish a flock to a point of no return...then outlaw it.
I'm not convinced that baiting should be outlawed. It's being done on deer, why not turkey?
Hmmmmm....apples and oranges.
How's that?
:smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Quote from: g8rvet on April 15, 2016, 08:55:22 PM
Hunter mortality, with today's regulations, counts for very little in the overall death of ducks. habitat drives duck populations.
Key here is "with today's regulations." Change one and hunter mortality can have a drastic effect.
Quote from: SteelerFan on April 15, 2016, 03:59:20 PM
Hunters have always questioned what the next guy might be using, or how they're using it. We all have to limit our shotguns to 3 rounds for the majority of the game we hunt because of market hunters killing ducks in the early 1900's (not to mention the double-barrel clan cried foul). Does a shotgun REALLY need to be plugged today? Why?
It is my understanding, and experience that we are only allowed three rounds, not because of the game we take home, but because of the crippled game we leave in the field.
As it currently stands, there is an extremely high percentage of waterfowl hit and not recovered on that third shot. I have no doubt that many hunters would keep shooting at birds well beyond "killable" range, and many of those birds would fly off and die.
And oddly, a bird hit in a non-vital area with lead will likely recover, but with steel shot, wound healing is impaired (due to rusting wounds and other issues). When we put pellets into a bird with steel, there is a high likelihood that that bird will not survive.
I am alright with three rounds in the gun, but I would balk at four, and would not cry if they lowered it to two. Primarily due to the rate of crippling increasing so severely after the first shot.
Fortunately, a good portion of our game laws are based on some degree of logic. Unfortunately, some are based on politics, and some are based on financial greed. We as hunters need to be educated as to the basis and reasoning behind the regulations that we either support or oppose. Conservation and long-term population maintenance must be considered when we push for more or less regulation in any aspect of hunting.
In short, if we are going to voice our opinions, those opinions should be educated opinions based on logic and/or science, and not based on emotional "feelings," or short term hunter benefit.
"As it currently stands, there is an extremely high percentage of waterfowl hit and not recovered on that third shot. I have no doubt that many hunters would keep shooting at birds well beyond "killable" range, and many of those birds would fly off and die."
...or that same ethical hunter might be able to kill that 3rd shot cripple with a 4th or 5th round, thereby reducing the number of crippled birds left in the field? Just food for thought - but I digress. It's turkey season, good luck to all and hunt safe! :camohat:
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on April 15, 2016, 06:45:37 PM
Quote from: C. Brumfiel on April 15, 2016, 05:07:33 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 04:45:26 PM
Quote from: albrubacker on April 15, 2016, 04:30:07 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: g8rvet on April 15, 2016, 02:46:39 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
I see it a bunch on forums, Facebook, and magazines. "Ban this product!!!" or "ban that style of hunting!!!"
Am I the only one that is such a strict conservative (politically speaking) that I feel that following current laws is enough?
Don't get me wrong, if there were say a brand new, "Turkey Killa Thrilla" decoy that would coax a turkey half a mile through downtown New York into my lap, by all means.......BUT I want to see documented evidence, proven by multiple state agencies/third party assistance (this is a must), and sources for the public to view this evidence, WITH public input prior to the ban taking place.
Am I the only person that does not trust our government to handle these issues?
You sound more Libertarian! :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Your definition of liberal and conservative is much different than mine. LoL
Libertarians are nothing like a liberal!
I cover all spectrums to an extent, but that's another conversation that will not be done on social media. Lol
Happy hit on something that I was afraid would happen. I do think the restrictions, at least here in AR are good as is...with the exception of the season dates. With that said, I am saying that killing with no guidelines is bad. Baiting, night hunting, killing hens, etc. have been proven to dwindle a flock to the point of 0% chance of rebounding. Those laws are needed and have proof the back them up. Reaping, fanning, decoys, calls, shotguns that shoot 40+ yards DO NOT.
So, without evidence, there should be no banning of said methods. If they can prove that without a doubt any of those, or other, styles of hunting can diminish a flock to a point of no return...then outlaw it.
I'm not convinced that baiting should be outlawed. It's being done on deer, why not turkey?
You, sir, aren't a turkey hunter if you'd even entertain asking that question.
Firstly, corn can be disastrous for turkeys when it becomes exposed to moisture and grows harmful bacteria.
Secondly, corn is like crack cocaine for turkeys. We have a brain, 10 fingers, 10 toes, guns, shells, camo, calls, and decoys. How much easier does it need to be to kill a turkey? The commercialization of hunting has finally caught up to turkey hunting. The sacredness and art of it is being lost in favor of gadgets, gimmicks, and pansies who want to throw the grand bird over there shoulders without having earned the right to kill one.
Why do people on here feel that they need to be a jerk to others. I see this kind of thing on just about every thread.
Quote from: C. Brumfiel on April 16, 2016, 08:53:58 AM
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on April 15, 2016, 06:45:37 PM
Quote from: C. Brumfiel on April 15, 2016, 05:07:33 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 04:45:26 PM
Quote from: albrubacker on April 15, 2016, 04:30:07 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: g8rvet on April 15, 2016, 02:46:39 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
I see it a bunch on forums, Facebook, and magazines. "Ban this product!!!" or "ban that style of hunting!!!"
Am I the only one that is such a strict conservative (politically speaking) that I feel that following current laws is enough?
Don't get me wrong, if there were say a brand new, "Turkey Killa Thrilla" decoy that would coax a turkey half a mile through downtown New York into my lap, by all means.......BUT I want to see documented evidence, proven by multiple state agencies/third party assistance (this is a must), and sources for the public to view this evidence, WITH public input prior to the ban taking place.
Am I the only person that does not trust our government to handle these issues?
You sound more Libertarian! :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Your definition of liberal and conservative is much different than mine. LoL
Libertarians are nothing like a liberal!
I cover all spectrums to an extent, but that's another conversation that will not be done on social media. Lol
Happy hit on something that I was afraid would happen. I do think the restrictions, at least here in AR are good as is...with the exception of the season dates. With that said, I am saying that killing with no guidelines is bad. Baiting, night hunting, killing hens, etc. have been proven to dwindle a flock to the point of 0% chance of rebounding. Those laws are needed and have proof the back them up. Reaping, fanning, decoys, calls, shotguns that shoot 40+ yards DO NOT.
So, without evidence, there should be no banning of said methods. If they can prove that without a doubt any of those, or other, styles of hunting can diminish a flock to a point of no return...then outlaw it.
I'm not convinced that baiting should be outlawed. It's being done on deer, why not turkey?
You, sir, aren't a turkey hunter if you'd even entertain asking that question.
Firstly, corn can be disastrous for turkeys when it becomes exposed to moisture and grows harmful bacteria.
Secondly, corn is like crack cocaine for turkeys. We have a brain, 10 fingers, 10 toes, guns, shells, camo, calls, and decoys. How much easier does it need to be to kill a turkey? The commercialization of hunting has finally caught up to turkey hunting. The sacredness and art of it is being lost in favor of gadgets, gimmicks, and pansies who want to throw the grand bird over there shoulders without having earned the right to kill one.
Why do people on here feel that they need to be a jerk to others. I see this kind of thing on just about every thread.
I am not meaning to come off as a jerk. Any grain in a field is spread out over a fairly large area, therefore, turkey have multiple spots to enter, leave, or lounge. A pile of corn on the other hand is just that, a pile of corn. So, it makes it pretty dang easy for a hunter, coyote, bobcat, or anything for that matter, to take down a bird....could be a hen that has 12 eggs waiting to be incubated. Another thing, you can dang near set a clock to when they will show up daily.
I hate to turn this in to a duck hunting thread.
One more comment. You could change 10 things on duck hunting and overall, hunting mortality would have little effect on year to year fluctuations in duck populations. What did affect it was market hunting (killing them by the thousands when they had rarely seen humans) and shooting them on the way back north after pair bonding had occurred (hens would not reconnect on the spring breeding grounds and not lay fertile eggs) and agriculture practices that took the farmed crop the very edge of wetlands, allowing no nesting cover for hens - or worse, what nesting cover was there was run over by harvesting machines, killing the year's clutch. Compared to those three things-allowing 8 mallards a day (like they do in Canada) or 5 shots, or an earlier start to the season, no shell limits, etc would have very minimal effects. Not arguing with ya Bill, just pointing out some common waterfowling misconceptions about population dynamics in waterfowl management.
I shoot an O/U, so I CAN'T shoot a third shot. Kill just as many ducks and shoot fewer shells.
Quote from: Spurs on April 16, 2016, 10:57:10 AM
Quote from: C. Brumfiel on April 16, 2016, 08:53:58 AM
Quote from: VaTuRkStOmPeR on April 15, 2016, 06:45:37 PM
Quote from: C. Brumfiel on April 15, 2016, 05:07:33 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 04:45:26 PM
Quote from: albrubacker on April 15, 2016, 04:30:07 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 03:00:14 PM
Quote from: g8rvet on April 15, 2016, 02:46:39 PM
Quote from: Spurs on April 15, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
I see it a bunch on forums, Facebook, and magazines. "Ban this product!!!" or "ban that style of hunting!!!"
Am I the only one that is such a strict conservative (politically speaking) that I feel that following current laws is enough?
Don't get me wrong, if there were say a brand new, "Turkey Killa Thrilla" decoy that would coax a turkey half a mile through downtown New York into my lap, by all means.......BUT I want to see documented evidence, proven by multiple state agencies/third party assistance (this is a must), and sources for the public to view this evidence, WITH public input prior to the ban taking place.
Am I the only person that does not trust our government to handle these issues?
You sound more Libertarian! :smiley-patriotic-flagwaver-an
Your definition of liberal and conservative is much different than mine. LoL
Libertarians are nothing like a liberal!
I cover all spectrums to an extent, but that's another conversation that will not be done on social media. Lol
Happy hit on something that I was afraid would happen. I do think the restrictions, at least here in AR are good as is...with the exception of the season dates. With that said, I am saying that killing with no guidelines is bad. Baiting, night hunting, killing hens, etc. have been proven to dwindle a flock to the point of 0% chance of rebounding. Those laws are needed and have proof the back them up. Reaping, fanning, decoys, calls, shotguns that shoot 40+ yards DO NOT.
So, without evidence, there should be no banning of said methods. If they can prove that without a doubt any of those, or other, styles of hunting can diminish a flock to a point of no return...then outlaw it.
I'm not convinced that baiting should be outlawed. It's being done on deer, why not turkey?
You, sir, aren't a turkey hunter if you'd even entertain asking that question.
Firstly, corn can be disastrous for turkeys when it becomes exposed to moisture and grows harmful bacteria.
Secondly, corn is like crack cocaine for turkeys. We have a brain, 10 fingers, 10 toes, guns, shells, camo, calls, and decoys. How much easier does it need to be to kill a turkey? The commercialization of hunting has finally caught up to turkey hunting. The sacredness and art of it is being lost in favor of gadgets, gimmicks, and pansies who want to throw the grand bird over there shoulders without having earned the right to kill one.
Why do people on here feel that they need to be a jerk to others. I see this kind of thing on just about every thread.
I am not meaning to come off as a jerk. Any grain in a field is spread out over a fairly large area, therefore, turkey have multiple spots to enter, leave, or lounge. A pile of corn on the other hand is just that, a pile of corn. So, it makes it pretty dang easy for a hunter, coyote, bobcat, or anything for that matter, to take down a bird....could be a hen that has 12 eggs waiting to be incubated. Another thing, you can dang near set a clock to when they will show up daily.
Then why allow it for deer hunting?
I still don't understand how a pile of corn would decimate a population with current bag limits and possession limits.
Quote from: C. Brumfiel on April 16, 2016, 11:51:41 AM
I still don't understand how a pile of corn would decimate a population with current bag limits and possession limits.
Because, if ever single hunter in Arkansas (or anywhere for that matter) and this happened for about 2-3 years, the population would suffer tremendously...probably for the next 5-10 years after that.
Now, as far as deer go. Some states have outlawed it due to the CWD problem. I see that progressing as that issue grows. But, it does not effect the population like it could/would turkey. If you had a corn feeder, you may get one or two does that come to your feeder daily, other than that, it is pretty sporadic. Turkey on the other hand...I have seen videos of them stay under it as the freezer goes off. Like said previously, it is like crack to them...and crack kills.
Bag limits are not meant to be filled every single season. I honestly don't even know how there is a question there.
I see your point.
I am 46 years old and have been hunting for more than 36 years. I can count on one hand the number of times that I have hunted on private property with fields and such. I did kill a very nice gobbler once on private property, and must say that it was easier than hunting vast acreages of trees on public land. I say that because I don't have the same perspective as guys who get to hunt private, therefore I don't have the knowledge base of that kind of hunting.
"Bag limits are not meant to be filled every single season. I honestly don't even know how there is a question there." There probably isn't, I was thinking the same thing. But, this question comes from not tagging out on public. Tagging out on public is very hard in my opinion.