I'm not knocking anyone for using hevi shot or heavy weight shells because I use them too. What I can't figure out is how everyone always says they are better because the birds they shoot with them don't even flop. I was born and raised on a farm and have been involved in hundreds of chicken and turkey killings. Every one was/is decapitated and everyone flops! How much deader can you get than having no head? Lack of flopping comes from body trama, not from head trauma. Just because a bird flops doesn't mean that the shell isn't effective anymore than it means the hatchet wasn't effective.
The stunned tom shuffle is not as fun as it sounds, HTL for me.
Sent from the Strut Zone
They flop with both or die stone dead with both. I think the range can effect it more
I've always shot lead. Sometimes they flop, sometimes they don't. Like you said, dead is dead. As long as they don't get back up I'm happy.
Bob
It's like deer hunting and people having to use magnums so they are DRT. They don't understand that shutting down the CNS is what drops them. You can do it with a 300 WM or a 223 Rem, just stick it in the right spot.
I am a hevishot/heavyweight user for the simple fact they pattern better. They can flop all they want as long as they stay dead.
I have a theory but it's probably wrong. I have no medical degree just some experience killing lots of birds. I have butchered hundred of chickens and turkeys as well as shot a few wild ones.
You can cut a head completely off and they still flop. It's a reaction in the nervous system much like a snake still writes around after you kill it. However I do believe there is a spot in the central nervous system that if you hit it will give you the stone dead effect. We are shooting tighter patterning loads with smaller pellets these days and I just think that hitting the "x" is a more common occurrence. Just a theory, nothing more
I haven't been turkey hunting as long as many of the folks here, but I've only had two birds drop stone dead without any flopping around. I've used both HTL (the older hevi shot when Remington put their name on it) and lead (been using the long beards for the last couple of seasons). I can't say that one or the other kills them any better or "more dead" than the other. Whatever patterns best for your gun is what you should use.
Quote from: Farmboy27 on April 05, 2016, 07:33:08 PM
I'm not knocking anyone for using hevi shot or heavy weight shells because I use them too. What I can't figure out is how everyone always says they are better because the birds they shoot with them don't even flop. I was born and raised on a farm and have been involved in hundreds of chicken and turkey killings. Every one was/is decapitated and everyone flops! How much deader can you get than having no head? Lack of flopping comes from body trama, not from head trauma. Just because a bird flops doesn't mean that the shell isn't effective anymore than it means the hatchet wasn't effective.
No theory , just know HW shot birds don't flop as often as shots with lead did.
Body trauma huh, guess HTL shot to the head and neck really does knock the crap out of them!
Quote from: davisd9 on April 05, 2016, 07:45:23 PM
The stunned tom shuffle is not as fun as it sounds, HTL for me.
Sent from the Strut Zone
Like I said, I've never used the HTL loads, but I couldn't agree more with that statement.
Bob
Quote from: OldSchool on April 05, 2016, 07:53:05 PM
I've always shot lead. Sometimes they flop, sometimes they don't. Like you said, dead is dead. As long as they don't get back up I'm happy.
Bob
Amen brother!
I don't think it matters what you're shooting or how far they are. Some flop and some don't.
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Quote from: Happy on April 05, 2016, 09:58:18 PM
I have a theory but it's probably wrong. I have no medical degree just some experience killing lots of birds. I have butchered hundred of chickens and turkeys as well as shot a few wild ones.
You can cut a head completely off and they still flop. It's a reaction in the nervous system much like a snake still writes around after you kill it. However I do believe there is a spot in the central nervous system that if you hit it will give you the stone dead effect. We are shooting tighter patterning loads with smaller pellets these days and I just think that hitting the "x" is a more common occurrence. Just a theory, nothing more
I know this for a fact, if you stick a chicken in the roof of his mouth with a knife, he will not flap around. He'll basically just go limp. I used to take my chickens to a slaughter house and that's how they did it. They'd shutter and be dead...So maybe that's why some of the birds we shoot just go stunned dead...
Quote from: sixbird on April 06, 2016, 10:27:22 PM
Quote from: Happy on April 05, 2016, 09:58:18 PM
I have a theory but it's probably wrong. I have no medical degree just some experience killing lots of birds. I have butchered hundred of chickens and turkeys as well as shot a few wild ones.
You can cut a head completely off and they still flop. It's a reaction in the nervous system much like a snake still writes around after you kill it. However I do believe there is a spot in the central nervous system that if you hit it will give you the stone dead effect. We are shooting tighter patterning loads with smaller pellets these days and I just think that hitting the "x" is a more common occurrence. Just a theory, nothing more
I know this for a fact, if you stick a chicken in the roof of his mouth with a knife, he will not flap around. He'll basically just go limp. I used to take my chickens to a slaughter house and that's how they did it. They'd shutter and be dead...So maybe that's why some of the birds we shoot just go stunned dead...
I was wonder the same thing and now to me it makes sense that if you are hitting them with 20 #7's or 5 # 5's there is a better chance the 7's are going to hit the switch shutting things down. With that said if they didn't fly or didn't run I am all grins :) !!
My experience is they will still flop however I have not had them start flopping until the tag goes on and then it is minor compared to lead birds in the past. I can say I see a difference.
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Lmfao!!! I have been wondering the same thing.
Anyone that claims "flopping" as an argument on how strong a load is instantly looses credibility in my book.
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I have never had a bird not flop. Shot lead for yrs. and then switched to Hevi 13 and now back to lead. All were killed from ranges of 10 yrds. to 40 yrds. with both loads and I have never not had to put my boot on their neck. Guess all mine just had a lot of fight still left in'em.
I have shot a few birds in my time and it doesn't seem to matter if it is lead or HTL shot. 95% of the time they flop. I think location of the pellet strike matters more than what type of shot, provided there is enough energy to penetrate. I shot one at less than five yards and he tore up more real estate than any other bird I have shot. I switch to hevi because of " the stunned shuffle" as it was put. And these where on 40 yard shots. I haven't had that problem with hevi. They are dead. Flopping maybe but dead.
Quote from: Spurs on April 07, 2016, 07:10:30 AM
Lmfao!!! I have been wondering the same thing.
Anyone that claims "flopping" as an argument on how strong a load is instantly looses credibility in my book.
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agreed
When people say "they never even flopped "it is not only BS but,most of the time a lie...FACT is....folks say it to make their story sound better.
Quote from: BINK McCARTY on April 10, 2016, 06:45:07 PM
When people say "they never even flopped "it is not only BS but,most of the time a lie...FACT is....folks say it to make their story sound better.
This is my first season using HTL. I've killed lots of turkeys and they've flopped, and it doesn't bother me to watch it either. Don't mind at all to break their necks with my boot or hands. I've Butchered chickens as well and they flop, unless you hang them upside down and bleed them out. Can't explain what I'm about to say but I killed 3 this year with Hevi 7's and none flopped. It was a first and I was quite surprised because I thought it was BS myself. Seeing is believing.
When I see them flop around a lot its either from one or two things, 1. An unethical shot that was too far, or 2. They damn near missed the bird but enough caught it to take it down still. Now some nerve twitches I think are normal, but like others said it's a nervous system thing.
I'm going back 10 years to gross neuro anatomy here but there are loops in the body that assist with things like reciprocal gait that bypass the brain. Like a hardwired tract that pass through the spinal cord. I'm sure they exist in animals and believe that they are likely present in the areas vital to a person/animals survival (legs/wings). When the brain is out of the picture, neurons are still depolarizing and firing which could explain the flapping or kicking after being shot, or leg twitching in deer or people for that matter. I just don't think it's black and white to say a turkey flops because of an unethical hunter with bad aim, again consider the hatchet to the chickens neck concept.
I remember a primos video several years ago when the nitro's they were shooting literally decapitated 2 different birds. Picked up the birds, then there heads. They flopped around like crazy. You cannot do more damage to a turkey with a shotgun than removing it's head. That being said I have seen several birds that never twitched. The first was with a win extended range 3"#5, it was the first time I shot a turkey with htl. Flopping is not the issue, and I can't argue that dead is dead. But I can say this hunt a year with htl and see if you notice a difference....
I have only had ONE bird NOT flop. It was a nice gobbler I killed in 2000. Shot him at 25 yards with a 12 ga. Federal "Premium" 3.5" 2 1/4 oz. of #4 shot. He went straight down and never even disturbed the leaves he was standing on!! He is the exception though. Every other one I have ever shot has flopped around.
I had killed a fair amount of turkeys w/ lead before I purchased my first box of Polywad tungsten turkey loads. After I had shot a couple of birds w/ the HTL shells, I was on the telephone ( it was several years before cell phones) calling the turkey hunting crowd to report on the incredible effectiveness of the "new" loads. I have evaluated all of the HTL loads loaded commercially and have never found a lead load which patterns like HTL w/ the terminal knock-down. I've necropsied and x-rayed quite a few gobblers killed w/ HTL and the penetration/tissue damage is far greater than w/lead. I deer hunt w/ a .257 Roberts Improved shooting a 100 gr bullet at 3200 fps and when possible take neck shots. With a high velocity strike to the neck deer drop in their tracks and don't run or thrash around. In my experience gobblers hit in the head and neck w/ HTL loads also drop in their tracks and the subsequent initial movement is substantially less than w/ lead which I attribute to the shock of HTL pellets. When I shoot a gobbler, I generally straddle the bird w/ my legs and body until all the muscular contractions have ceased ( I think such a noble bird deserves more respect than a boot on the neck). Yes, with HTL loads they still have "death contractions", but it has been so long since I've shot a bird w/ lead that I don't have a viable comparison anymore.
I definitely see a difference in shooting turkeys with HTL rather than lead. Shooting turkeys with lead it was standard procedure to jump up running after firing the shot and may result in a turkey rodeo. I have chased a many gobbler down. Not as much of an issue with HTL. This discussion about flopping is much to do about nothing. The goal for me is the turkey to go down and stay down..flop or not. I don't shoot past 40yds. 0-40yds HTL is devastating on the turkey. Win LB's have changed the game a bit with lead. They just increase your chances of missing up close is the only downside.
I didn't start this thread to knock htl loads in any way. If you look at my original post I stated that I also use htl loads. But I have had birds flop with them as well and I never looked at a bird that didn't flop and think "wow these are deadly". I use them because they pattern well. A flopping turkey doesn't mean a turkey you have to chase. Most of the time a wildly flopping bird is a dead bird. All I was saying is dead is dead. Some birds flop, some don't. And just because a bird flops doesn't mean it's a crippled bird that you have to chase down. Darn near took ones head off some years back that flopped 100 yards down the side of a ridge. Still dead when the load hit him.
You and I are both saying the same thing. Flop or not, the turkey going down and staying down is the goal. I have just had better success with HTL in accomplishing this goal.
Quote from: Longshanks on April 12, 2016, 08:44:05 PM
You and I are both saying the same thing. Flop or not, the turkey going down and staying down is the goal. I have just had better success with HTL in accomplishing this goal.
x2. The stunned tom shuffle ? Which to me is a tom that can get his head back up or pull himself across the ground or try to spur you. Htl has been better for me also. I also have had less nerve flopping where the tom flops in place or a few feet max. Now better pattern may have something to do with it . Better penetration who knows ?
Some don't flop at all, guess will have to be called a lie or lose some credibility :o
Quote from: Longshanks on April 12, 2016, 08:48:42 AM
I definitely see a difference in shooting turkeys with HTL rather than lead. Shooting turkeys with lead it was standard procedure to jump up running after firing the shot and may result in a turkey rodeo. I have chased a many gobbler down. Not as much of an issue with HTL. This discussion about flopping is much to do about nothing. The goal for me is the turkey to go down and stay down..flop or not. I don't shoot past 40yds. 0-40yds HTL is devastating on the turkey. Win LB's have changed the game a bit with lead. They just increase your chances of missing up close is the only downside.
Let's be honest here, if you shoot a turkey and you need to chase it down you have either taken an unethical shot or damn near missed and got it with just enough to wound it or you have not taken the time to check the guns patterning capabilities and again took an unethical shot.
After 42 years of turkey hunting and 25 years of guiding, believe or not, everyone doesn't make a perfect shot on every bird. Not even some of the best turkey hunters in the country. Not a question of being ethical or not. If you turkey hunt as long as I have and harvest as many as I have, you are going to lose a few turkeys. It's unfortunate and a bad day in the woods. I have only lost a few of all the turkeys I have dropped the hammer on. Those were all with lead. Hevi shot normally puts the turkey down or there is a clean miss provided the turkey is in range. 40yds or less. When I run across people who say they have never missed a turkey or lost a turkey..my hat is off to you..but the majority of seasoned hunters I know have experienced this at some point with deer and turkeys. All the best to you in the turkey woods!
I'm the beginning of my addiction, I lost a couple due to extended yardage beyond my guesstimate. Therefore, I invested and use diamond reticle scopes to reduce the guesswork. Hopefully, my future losses will be zero or close to it. Good luck to all.
Call me an expert (joke) but I've killed turkeys with about 7 different loads.. The least of the loads were Remington 2.75 duplex 4x6 shells and the coveted Hevi 3.5in magnum blends. In the middle has been Winchester red 3in and 3in and 3.5in black shells, long beards 3 and 3.5 inch...you get the point. I've seen no flop with the duplex and long beards, but not the Hevi or the other Winchester shells. Do I say it was because one shell was superior to another? NO! Simple matter here...A turkeys anatomy and where you hit him.
A Remington Duplex is far less superior to Hevi but it out performed it if you think flopping or not makes a shell better. Me personally I shoot longbeards and since the switch I've seen 2 of the 3 killed with it flop
Quote from: owlhoot on April 12, 2016, 10:11:47 PM
Quote from: Longshanks on April 12, 2016, 08:44:05 PM
You and I are both saying the same thing. Flop or not, the turkey going down and staying down is the goal. I have just had better success with HTL in accomplishing this goal.
x2. The stunned tom shuffle ? Which to me is a tom that can get his head back up or pull himself across the ground or try to spur you. Htl has been better for me also. I also have had less nerve flopping where the tom flops in place or a few feet max. Now better pattern may have something to do with it . Better penetration who knows ?
Some don't flop at all, guess will have to be called a lie or lose some credibility :o
Definitely the stunned Tom shuffle! Man I do not miss it at all. Good story at times but can slowly get up and work my way to him.
I have never heard anybody say anything remotely like that,maybe an online chest pounding thing?I shoot 3.5" because I want to and I am confident in my setup.Flop or no flop,that's just funny.
Opinions from 30+ years killing turkeys:
Any of them are subject to flopping. I will admit though, I have had a bit less flop, move or what have you when shot spot on with HTL loads. When they do flop I like to call it the "broke neck shuffle". Lead loads (traditional magnum loads) produced more that flopped a bit and even a few that laid for a couple minutes and got back up. Probably because those lead killed turkeys simply were not subjected to as much damage from the shot, gun patterned more openly, less force absorbed, etc. I developed the habit of running out to toms when I used lead because of those few experiences from whatever cause either equipment or the user's fault. With HTL I just walk out but I keep an eye on any turkey that has been shot till I get to them just as I would any game animal I hunt with any weapon. One other thing I have noticed, sometimes you can shoot a tom (with any type load) and if left alone he will lay still till dead or only slightly quiver. If you touch one it seems to be more apt to trigger a more violent flopping response. May be with the added confidence of load and equipment these days that my walking out and not immediately touching the turkey allows them to be more apt to expire without as much flopping movement. Flopping seems to be an involuntary response on their part.
I shot one big tom at 24 steps years ago with lead 5s. He hit the ground and lay stone dead with trickles of blood pumping out of his head and neck. I approached and laid a boot on his neck (habit) and there was zero movement. Checked out his beard and spurs then pulled out my wallet and got a tag, stepped off the turkey to place it on his leg and heard air wheezing in. Then all heck broke loose with flopping. He wasn't going anywhere but he sure was trying with that last gasp of life. With lead I always made sure to cut their air off as quick as I could. You have to understand that back then a gun that put 12 pellets in the head and neck target at 40 was smoking lethal. :)
A good friend of mine shot a bird :fud: 10-15 years ago. He tagged the bird carried it out of the field put it in the back of his truck (with a cap) and drove 5 miles to check the turkey in at a local gun shop. He gets to the gun shop opens the cap and your guessed it...the turkey is standing in the back of the truck staring him and the gun shop owner in the face :funnyturkey:. At that point he slammed the cap shut pulled out his knife and had the shop owner close the cap after he jumped in :z-guntootsmiley: :newmascot: :turkey2: and bedlam ensued with the turkey eventually succumbing. When the gun shop owner tells the story :popcorn: he says that based on the noise and action going on in the back of the truck he wasn't sure which one of them was going to emerge the winner. I did see the bird and the back of the truck after the fact and it was not pretty :o!
Quote from: nosaj on April 20, 2016, 04:02:26 PM
A good friend of mine shot a bird :fud: 10-15 years ago. He tagged the bird carried it out of the field put it in the back of his truck (with a cap) and drove 5 miles to check the turkey in at a local gun shop. He gets to the gun shop opens the cap and your guessed it...the turkey is standing in the back of the truck staring him and the gun shop owner in the face :funnyturkey:. At that point he slammed the cap shut pulled out his knife and had the shop owner close the cap after he jumped in :z-guntootsmiley: :newmascot: :turkey2: and bedlam ensued with the turkey eventually succumbing. When the gun shop owner tells the story :popcorn: he says that based on the noise and action going on in the back of the truck he wasn't sure which one of them was going to emerge the winner. I did see the bird and the back of the truck after the fact and it was not pretty :o!
:TooFunny: :TooFunny: :TooFunny: :toothy12:
Yup, I shot a turkey one time and threw him over my shoulder and walked out. Put him in the back of my stuck and started driving out of the lease. Turkey came to and jumped over the side of the truck. Couldn't fly but I had to chase him down to finish him off. That shell was lead. You just never knew what was going to happen.
I also shot a turkey one time when I was a young man and he was on the ground flopping. Came to and chased me spurring me and tore my pants leg. Left my gun at the tree. I have numerous scars on my hands from picking up turkeys after they were shot and being spurred. Over grown rooster can put a hurt on you.
Quote from: Longshanks on April 20, 2016, 04:24:10 PM
Yup, I shot a turkey one time and threw him over my shoulder and walked out. Put him in the back of my stuck and started driving out of the lease. Turkey came to and jumped over the side of the truck. Couldn't fly but I had to chase him down to finish him off. That shell was lead. You just never knew what was going to happen.
Yea, I am sure my buddy was shooting lead back then as well, he was just lucky to have the cap ;D
Had one old long-spurred tom in the passenger side floor board of my bronco come back . Had his head up looking around.
This after hauling him out in a vest and driving down the gravel for a few hundred yards.
Had to twist and break his neck.
Lead shot .
The stunned tom shuffle in the cab with ya while driving puts it in a whole new level.
Crazy stuff.
I had one bird not flop. I had one flop after I took the top half of his bead and beak clean off at 5 yards and he flopped.
There may be that "switch" that we occasionally hit but having killed more than a few with HTL, I don't see much difference in the bird's reaction if he's shot within the effective range of the load.
Called a big tom off the roost for a friend in the early 90s. Tom landed and strutted a few steps to about 24 yards and friend shot him with lead 6s. I ran out and stood on toms head and then rushed friend to hurry up and get the tom so we could light out after a couple more toms still gobbling down the river bottom. I stepped off the tom's neck, he tagged the bird then took off his vest and unbuckled the game bag to lay it open. As he reached for the tom it sprang up and took off running. After a 30 yard dash I tackled the tom then wrung his neck. Friend stood with wide open eyes asking me "What if he had gotten away with my tag on his leg and someone else killed him?" Who knows why but I made sure he didn't get away. And I whacked one of those other toms at noon too.
Thought I missed a nice tom on Saturday. I shot and he was disappeared with birds running around. They stopped a 100 yards or so away so I could not stand to see what happened. I was feeling sorry for myself when all of a sudden, flop, flop, flop, whew!!! He just dropped and did not start flopping for a minute or so. Thank goodness for the flop and I did not have to wait to know for sure until the other birds left.
Sent from the Strut Zone
Wow! If lead was/is really as poor and ineffective of a load as what all the stories here suggest, then I guess there was a pile of us(all of us actually) that were being very unethical back in the day by using a weapon and load that couldn't effectively kill our quarry. Shame on us! I can't believe they haven't outlawed lead yet.
They don't flop nearly as much with H13 as they did with lead. We shoot quite a few turkeys each spring all across the country and the truth is the amount of flopping, if any, is significantly less with HTL and TSS.
Quote from: davisd9 on April 25, 2016, 12:40:48 PM
Thought I missed a nice tom on Saturday. I shot and he was disappeared with birds running around. They stopped a 100 yards or so away so I could not stand to see what happened. I was feeling sorry for myself when all of a sudden, flop, flop, flop, whew!!! He just dropped and did not start flopping for a minute or so. Thank goodness for the flop and I did not have to wait to know for sure until the other birds left.
Sent from the Strut Zone
My bird last week,didn't flop until i went to pick him up about 3 minutes later. HW7's 32 yards.
Quote from: Farmboy27 on April 25, 2016, 06:58:49 PM
Wow! If lead was/is really as poor and ineffective of a load as what all the stories here suggest, then I guess there was a pile of us(all of us actually) that were being very unethical back in the day by using a weapon and load that couldn't effectively kill our quarry. Shame on us! I can't believe they haven't outlawed lead yet.
Yet to interpret that from any post.
Quote from: davisd9 on April 26, 2016, 10:57:49 AM
Quote from: Farmboy27 on April 25, 2016, 06:58:49 PM
Wow! If lead was/is really as poor and ineffective of a load as what all the stories here suggest, then I guess there was a pile of us(all of us actually) that were being very unethical back in the day by using a weapon and load that couldn't effectively kill our quarry. Shame on us! I can't believe they haven't outlawed lead yet.
Yet to interpret that from any post.
x2 was not able to get that posts point either
Quote from: owlhoot on April 26, 2016, 11:48:07 AM
Quote from: davisd9 on April 26, 2016, 10:57:49 AM
Quote from: Farmboy27 on April 25, 2016, 06:58:49 PM
Wow! If lead was/is really as poor and ineffective of a load as what all the stories here suggest, then I guess there was a pile of us(all of us actually) that were being very unethical back in the day by using a weapon and load that couldn't effectively kill our quarry. Shame on us! I can't believe they haven't outlawed lead yet.
Yet to interpret that from any post.
I think he's saying if HTL is so superior that people claim birds killed by it don't flop, then we are all unethical for ever using lead...I believe he meant it sarcastically
x2 was not able to get that posts point either
I don't have as much experience as many here but I'll take the heat and say that you can mark me down in the HTL no flop column. I switched to HTL four years ago and 7 of the eight birds I've killed since (Florida only allows two a year) have dropped instantly. A couple have started flopping about three minutes later but I don't feel the need to run to the bird like I did with lead. I killed one this weekend at 40 yrds. and he never flinched. The difference was noticeable to me the first bird I killed with it. Killed many with lead before that and they died too, just usually made a lot more ruckus doing it.
Lead kills turkeys just as dead provided you put enough of it on target at an effective range. HTL leaves more margin for operator error IMO.
I have never judged a kill by the amount of flopping, never shot anything but lead. They flop more when you run to them quickly than they do if you walk calmly to the bird. Often times they don't flop at all until you start to pick them up. You can take half their head off and they still flop same as a chicken with no head. Long as they are dead I don't pay much attention to the flop.