This thread is started more out of ignorance than anything else. I don't want to be confused with the Old Schoolers that think you have to limit your kit to what your grandfather used. I also do not want to suggest there is an ethical issue here. As far as I am concerned, all you owe the gobbler is a quick death. Period. Mine is a question of practicality and economy more than anything. My question is about the loads we choose to use turkey hunting.
First off, my confession. When I started out, a 2 3/4" 12 GA Trap gun was considered ideal for turkey hunting. You put a Dixie cup on a stick, walked back 20 yards and shot at the Dixie cup. If you had a pellet or two go through the cup, you were good to go. If you got better than a couple of pellets, you went back a few yards and repeated the procedure until there were only a couple of pellets going through the cup, and that was the working range of that gun and that load. Eight bucks would buy you a box of 25 premium high brass #4. That was extravagant. As I remember, if you worked at it, you get a lead #4 high brass load for a quarter a round. Ronald Regan was President. Life was good. In 1996 I found a Mossberg 500 that shot 3 inch shells and switched to Federal #4 lead, and have been happy with it ever since.
I would be the first to tell you it is overkill. In the intervening 30 years, I have possibly taken only one or two birds that would have been out of reach of my Dad's Model 12 Trap and Remington Nitro Express Buffered Magnum #4. I still have some of my first box left. I keep threatening to go retro some year and hunt with the Model 12 but alas, I find myself gripped of the same delusions as everyone else.
Nothing in the intervening decades has changed, except the shotguns and the loads. The turkeys are still the same, and the terrain is the same. Calling is still the preferred method of bringing in a turkey. So why are we talking about $8/round 3.5inch loads? Why are we discussing shot alloys that require a Masters degree in Metallurgy to fully comprehend? Why are we worrying about how our round performs at 70 yards? Why are we submitting ourselves to the same recoil as an elephant gun to kill a 20 pound bird?
I have been asking these questions for over a decade. The answers I get are along the lines of:
1) I want to be ready for what comes.
2) I want the very best.
3) I get only a couple shots a year, I want to make it count.
4) I want the winning edge (whatever that is)
When I start hearing guys using a Lead Sled to pattern their guns, I have to take pause. The technology is exceeding the limits of the human body at this point. That tells me something is wrong.
I worked for a while as a Quality Assurance Manager. One of the first things they teach you is the definition of Quality: conforms to a specification. It does not mean the best money can buy. It does not mean the cheapest you can make. Both strategies end up with the company bankrupt. Quality means define a specification and attempt to meet it. If you meet the specification, that's Quality. My supposition here is that over the decades, as turkey hunting has become more popular we tend to find reasons to make the specification for turkey loads higher and higher with very little increase in actual return.
My question is this: what has changed since the days of having a good trap gun meant you also had a good turkey gun?
Another question: Back in the early 80's, I can remember folks being worried about their turkey guns performing adequately. A lot of birds were missed at fairly close range due to open or faulty patterns and inadequate performance. Gobblers seemed a lot better armored back then just because a lot of inadequate hardware was being used. Are we secretly stuck fighting a battle that was won 30 years ago? That is, a good 2 3/4" 12 GA load fired out of a reasonable gun took a bird at reasonable distances. Where does it end?
I have also been thinking along these same lines this year. Things seemed to be much simplier back in olden times, however technology changes, people still want to make a dollar and tell you that the next best thing is the next best thing. I love shooting and I love seeing what the patterns will do. I am not a 60 yard turkey killer nor do I want a gun that has that capability. I want him as close as I can get him or he gets to walk another day. I am not one of these that believes that turkeys see better these days so army camo works just like it did when I was a kid. My dad would always laugh at me shooting my gun at 20 yards saying "son you can kill them with bird shot at that distance." when all I was wanting to do was see what the pattern was doing at that distance. I will leave the topic of decoys to someone else. I have used them, and I have not used them and killed turkeys. To each his own I don't care. I started out w/o one. The older I get the less I want to carry and the more I realize it doesn't take a sack of stuff to kill one, just knowing the ground and knowing what to do situationally (calling, moving, etc.) Lets face it, you can get screwed by one easy enough, you don't need to be carrying 20 calls to do so. I do love turkey calls. I love turkey hunting stuff I buy a ton of it each year. I yelp, gobble and hoot in my house year round much to the dismay of the boss hen. But a good mouthcall, a slate and a few shells in a decent shooting gun is all a fella really needs. That and TP...don't forget the TP for any reason..and aloe wetwipes are even better.
Just about any shotgun can kill a turkey same with the old type shells. The main idea behind a turkey gun is keeping the pattern tight. You always want a better pattern and better shell so the pellets have a better chance of hitting and killing the bird. The old wide pattern is less than ideal since you are trying to get more pellets in a smaller area of the head and neck. What your looking for in your gun and shells is to increase your chances of taking the bird as humanly as possible. That's the reason a lot of use want to shoot a better turkey gun ... people need to remember it was the GOOD LORD who put these birds on this earth for us to hunt and really these animals don't belong to any of use. We just get the benefit and enjoyment of hunting this great creatures the WILD TURKEY..
Amen! I had some patterns that patterned too tight in my opinion at 40 yards in a 10" circle and left no halo around it. I chose a lesser pellet count in the 10" with a better halo for the loads that I am using this year.
Quote from: Greg Massey on March 21, 2016, 11:22:40 AM
Just about any shotgun can kill a turkey same with the old type shells. The main idea behind a turkey gun is keeping the pattern tight. You always want a better pattern and better shell so the pellets have a better chance of hitting and killing the bird. The old wide pattern is less than ideal since you are trying to get more pellets in a smaller area of the head and neck. What your looking for in your gun and shells is to increase your chances of taking the bird as humanly as possible. That's the reason a lot of use want to shoot a better turkey gun ... people need to remember it was the GOOD LORD who put these birds on this earth for us to hunt and really these animals don't belong to any of use. We just get the benefit and enjoyment of hunting this great creatures the WILD TURKEY..
One man's "good enough" is the next guy's "good enough". Turkeys live in a variety of terrain.
Getting a tom to 25 yards in some of the open areas of the west may be more difficult than getting him that close in the hardwoods of the east coast.
I want to make sure I get a clean kill at every distance to 40 yards so I spend the money on premium shells to ensure that. I don't get enough days to hunt every year to guarantee I can come back at him the next day so I want to be able to do the job at my maximum range on any given hunt.
I have a lot of respect for the guys that can call them all in to under 30 yards but sometimes that just don't happen for me.
That's my explanation on why I spend $6 per shell. Kill 'em with what you like tho. :icon_thumright:
The reason for me is simple. I enjoy it. I'm shooting a 20 gauge that will kill a turkey at ranges well beyond the 40 yard limit of discussion here on OG. I enjoyed the time I spend tinkering with the gun/loads. I travel and hunt 3-5 States each season, I spend money on calls, boots, camo...and those who know me know I'm into performance and function over all ells. I wear bdu fatigues because I get the toughest pant for $30. Anyway I'm not skimping on a few $$$ per shell. I know guys packing $1400 Benelli shotguns and they whine about $4 shells. Go figure.
Marketing. I do about the same but I like to shoot a drink can instead of a dixie cup.
Very good discussion going on here. I really agree with the high performance stuff. Every turkey I've killed has been with a 3 1/2 load out of my camo Browning Silver. BUT! For kicks this year I want to use the Wingmaster my wife bought me for my birthday back in 1976. That shotgun has killed more birds and deer than I can remember but never a turkey.
I don't shotgun hunt much and all my gear is old. I have 2 mid90's Remingtons, so I'm shooting 3 in. shells. Federal does good out to 40 yrds. and I bet I've only killed 2 birds that far. I'm getting into shooting birds with a .410 so I like em' in close. Gooserbat reply to this thread is along my thoughts too.
Why does one guy hunt turkeys with his grandpa's old single shot and squirrel loads and another guy has the best semi auto shotgun, red dot sight, turkey choke and the best ammo money can buy? That's easy.. Because one guy hunts turkeys and the other guy is a turkey hunter!!!!
I have been shooting a 3 1\2 shell for a long time, I started using it when I started hunting out west. I'm now buying 3 inch, and I'm already thinking that in the future I'll be buying 2 3/4. 2 3\4 is what I started with and that's what I will end with.
As I said in my original post, I'm not ethically tied to any particular outcome. It's just that after 30-some years, I realize that of all the gobs I've shot, maybe 2 were outside the range of Dad's Model 12 or my Remington 1100 shooting 2 3/4 shells. Of the rest, 80% or better were taken inside 17 yards. I'm not boasting. In fact if you'd asked be before I counted them all up, I'd have said a much longer yardage. The trick where we hunt is that with all the cedar trees and all the dips and such in the landscape, it is often times the case where my first view of the gobbler is less than 15 yards out.
I'll also say that of all the turkeys I've missed, outside of the few goofy panic shots I've taken at 60 yards or better that I regretted after the fact, most if not all of the misses would not have been misses if I had been using a plain old modified choke and not an extra-full sooper dooper choke.
Let me remind y'all that I'm not criticizing anyone on this. I'm just as guilty. I know in my head that a plain old Rem 2 3/4" 12 GA Nitro-Express Buffered Magnum kills them just fine. My son is using them in his 870 and knocks them flat. I just cannot give up on the 3 inch #4's. I just drew the line a little sooner than you 3.5 folks.
Why, simply because I want to. I hunt for me and I decide whats best for me. Its my shoulder and my wallet. If I want to throw 900 pellets at a 20 pound bird I'm going to do it.
As I say this I plan on shooting 3.5" 2.5oz TSS #9s this year but I want to use either a .410 or a 20g with TSS #9s or #9.5s some next season.
I normally stay away from what I call opinion post but I would like to address this one just a little .
I'm 60 yr old and have seen a lot of change in some aspects of the sport I love above all others ,and not so much change in other areas. I have went from a single barrel Iver Johnson and # 4 lead all the way to a fine expensive Italian auto and very expensive TSS shot. I spend a great deal of time shooting tiny holes in paper and counting each one ,trying new loads and choke tubes ,each one cost way to much money,,,BUT I love doing it all . You know it helps me get from one season to the next .
Besides being as ready as I can be, for the first bird that I can get to fall for my terrible calling I am absolutely sure I'm going to kill him quick and sure. And again I ENJOY every minute of it... Did I mention I have trouble making it from the last day of season to the next opener... Haha I love this sport.... Steve
Quote from: hookedspur link=topic=62437.msg609356#msg60 9356 date=1458591555
I normally stay away from what I call opinion post but I would like to address this one just a little .
I'm 60 yr old and have seen a lot of change in some aspects of the sport I love above all others ,and not so much change in other areas. I have went from a single barrel Iver Johnson and # 4 lead all the way to a fine expensive Italian auto and very expensive TSS shot. I spend a great deal of time shooting tiny holes in paper and counting each one ,trying new loads and choke tubes ,each one cost way to much money,,,BUT I love doing it all .
... Haha I love this sport.... Steve
You know, the more I've watched this, the more I see what you are saying over the years. It's kind of a like sighting in has become a season unto itself. I personally can't wait to be done with it. We all go out, pop off a few rounds to check our sights and put things away until the Opener.
However, I'm also the guy who doesn't watch a single college basketball game all year and has not watched a golf match since Gramps died in '76. I know folks don't always share my taste in things.
I am not a numbers chaser and never will be. I am also not interested in how far I can stretch the performance of my shotun. There is a positive side to those who do. They know exactly how their gun and ammo will perform. I buy top dollar ammo and on a stellar year I will shoot four shots. The cost is worth it. I like knowing I have a top performing round when I pull the trigger. Will lead do the job for me? Yep. Still like the extra security of hevi shot.
Interesting post......
I look at it this way. The birds may not change, the terrain may not change, but that doesn't mean that my weapon and shell choice has to stay the same.
I also know what you're saying. I haven't killed as many birds as most people have, and the ones I have killed have been well under 30 yards.
Technology, for the most part moves forward. I like that my 20 gauge can shoot a 3" shell as good as some 12 gauge guns, and I love the fact that when the dot of my Fast Fire settles on his neck 40 yards and in, as long as I do my job, my gun/ shell combination will do its job. I spend my time at the range, and it is comforting to me to know I don't have to rely on just 1-2 pellets in a Coke can at X yardage.
I don't dispel anyone's methods as long as the end result is the humane and quick dispatching of a spring gobbler.
I can't really say why I use them. I guess because I don't mind recoil and don't mind paying a bit more for hunting stuff. I also use a 300 win mag for deer sometimes when a 243 would work just fine. A lot of guys around here have souped up diesel trucks that they never tow anything with, 4x4s that never get off the pavement, sports cars that can go 150 mph that never get above 65. Heck I pay for 150 channels on TV and only ever watch 5! Why do people do these things, because we can!
Quote from: Gooserbat on March 21, 2016, 11:58:32 AM
The reason for me is simple. I enjoy it. I'm shooting a 20 gauge that will kill a turkey at ranges well beyond the 40 yard limit of discussion here on OG. I enjoyed the time I spend tinkering with the gun/loads. I travel and hunt 3-5 States each season, I spend money on calls, boots, camo...and those who know me know I'm into performance and function over all ells. I wear bdu fatigues because I get the toughest pant for $30. Anyway I'm not skimping on a few $$$ per shell. I know guys packing $1400 Benelli shotguns and they whine about $4 shells. Go figure.
:z-dizzy:Often wondered that myself, about the Benelli's guys i know. I just figured they were broke and my 400 dollar Remington left me 1000 for shells! :lol:
Cuz this is 'Murica and more is better, bigger is better and better is better!
In reality, we hunters are victims of excellent marketing and our primal urge to be a hunter/gatherer/provider for our family.
Slick promotional information touting the benefits of hunting with imported Italian weapons made from highly figured Turkish walnut have been around since our great ancestor Grok emerged from the cave to begin hunting mastodons. Lead spear head? Sure, it's good, but a heavier than lead spear head - that's great! And a 3.5 inch TSS spear head? Hell yeah!
Part of it comes down to our desire to one-up the next guy.
Your bass boat goes 60 MPH? I'm gonna get one that goes 65.
You Harley has 145 HP? I'm going for 155.
Your wife gets a new set of 40D's? My wife is getting 42DD's.
Is there anything wrong with shooting lead 5's? Nope. They'll get the job done all day, every day.
I've got about 12 boxes of Mag Blends left, then I'm switching back to lead. Unless the marketing folks and the guys that hotrod their guns and loads tell me there is something better available. Or unless my buddy tells me he got 350 in the circle - then I'm going for 351.
I'm not an old timer but I've killed them with an old browning and 2.75in shells and I've killed them with 3.5in shells. Currently I shoot an original bottomland 870 with 3in LB's. A dead turkey is always a dead turkey, but I do agree if your financially able and you want to shoot a $1500 gun and $7 shells then go for it, but don't knock a guy who shoots a $300 gun and $1.50 shell like me. Because at the end of the day we both killed one.
For my own decision on this subject , to shoot lead or hevi or heavyweight .
Turkey loads or regular magnums.
I thought. Would i consider shooting lead instead if the price was the same or real close?
No way. The performance is just to great a difference.
Great food for thought thread. I started hunting turkeys around the same time as you, shaman. There was no such thing choke tubes at that time and whatever choke your gun came with from the factory was what you needed to work with. Camo of the day was army surplus. I had a full choke Ithaca 37R that was chambered for 2&3/4 inch shells, (Winchester XX) but they worked on whatever I was hunting. I learned to work within my gun's limitations. I've always been sort of a pattern freak, because I need to know where to draw the line. I also needed to find out what the gun was capable of, what ammo it liked, and didn't like (same old limitations thing again).
My grandfather taught me to hunt with one shell at a time to conserve ammo and make sure I made the first shot count (he came through the depression where you never knew where your next shell might come from). That attitude kinda rubbed off on me and I picked up a Stevens single shot because I liked the short receiver and how fast it pointed. Adding a sling & some camo paint made it my turkey gun. Even though it had a fixed modified choke, it also had a 3 inch chamber. It kicked like a mule (still does) but it also helped me bring home every turkey I ever dropped the hammer on with it. I liked the swarm of lead the "new" 3 inch shells threw. The recoil and added shot were worth the punishment, besides, I was giving up some of the tighter pattern of my full choked Ithaca 37.
My best friend had also gotten into turkey hunting since he'd gotten married and we'd moved different directions. We reconnected and fell right back into hunting together. Being a doctor's son, he always had the finest guns he could afford. Through him, I got a great deal on a Benelli SBE, chambered for 3". I hunted with the same box of 3 inch #6 Federals until I ran low and couldn't find them in the local gun shop. I switched to Winchester Supreme 3" 1&3/4 oz. of #6s (what my buddy shoots to this day) and killed loads of turkeys with them.
I started reading about the amazing performance of Hevi shot other guys were getting and decided to give it a try. Considering how long it took me to burn through turkey loads, the switch wasn't all that expensive in the long run. My patterns tightened up and the turkeys started dropping without much flopping. Win/win. Even though longer range shots are possible with the Hevi shot, they haven't changed the way I hunt much. I don't attempt questionable shots and still make one shot kills inside of 35 yards. I have added a red dot sight, that I likely would have used back in the day when I first started, if they existed at the time. My old Benelli was sold to a handicapped friend who also took up turkey hunting and I got a SBE II. I also hunt from a turkey lounger these days, because it is foolish to torture a wonky back.
I mainly evolved with the sport, likely because I found better gear. Ammo evolved along the way and I wanted to use the best I could to efficiently put gobbler's lights out. Probably the same reason I don't drive a 1970's vehicle anymore either. Things progressed and some of it got more efficient.
Jim
Human nature to constantly improve/do something better. First year I hunted turkey when I was a boy, I had a 30 year old single shot with a broken trigger. Had to pull and hold hammer back until ya was ready to fire! Long ways from my fancy rig these days, but got the job done. Also didn't know a lot back then.
I shoot an $8 shell because every bird deserves respect and as humane a death as i can give it. Inside the 40 most guns can be made to be effective but should something happen like misjudged yardage or the need for a long follow up shot i want my shell to have the pattern and energy to do the job.
I have chosen this route because i had a hard time with my first 2 turkeys. The first was rolled at 20 and required a follow up and the second was rolled at 25 and required 2 hours of searching and a follow up. Both were due to that old school get a few in the target and it is good mentality that is was learning from and reading about. I vowed after that second bird that i would always have the absolute best i can afford. To me every turkey is worth an $8 shell.
Quote from: snapper1982 on March 22, 2016, 01:18:29 PM
I shoot an $8 shell because every bird deserves respect and as humane a death as i can give it. Inside the 40 most guns can be made to be effective but should something happen like misjudged yardage or the need for a long follow up shot i want my shell to have the pattern and energy to do the job.
I have chosen this route because i had a hard time with my first 2 turkeys. The first was rolled at 20 and required a follow up and the second was rolled at 25 and required 2 hours of searching and a follow up. Both were due to that old school get a few in the target and it is good mentality that is was learning from and reading about. I vowed after that second bird that i would always have the absolute best i can afford. To me every turkey is worth an $8 shell.
RESPECT!! :icon_thumright: